Just back from a ride and was annoyed to find lots of the winterfold tracks blocked by large amounts of bulldozed and cut trees. I know its private land but how much damage are/do mountain bikers really doing to the guys land. A couple of trails providing hours of fun for people and pretty much no impact to him. He must be real a miserable see you next tuesday! Anyone know if there is a real reason for what has been done or is he just a dick?
Having seen the litter - bright fluorescent sings, tape, inevitable gel wrappers - on his land after a recent "race" that probably shouldn't have even been there recently, I am starting to have some sympathy with Big Jim, plus some of the gap jumps. We are our own worst enemies at times as we will probable see here.....
I know its private land
Yet you tresspass and then moan?
It's his land, it's private, he's really pissed off at the moment with scale of digging on his land, which to be fair is causing considerable damage compared to just people riding natural-ish trails. He says insurers insist no bikes on the land as it's a working forest and they won't cover his liability.
It's been a long standing conflict and he can do what he likes really except block off public footpaths and bridleways, but things have come to a head and he's clearly had enough. Actively blocking/destroying trails, staff warning people off the land, Strava is being monitored, web sites are being instructed to remove information on trails.
Meanwhile, there are tonnes of other places to ride and loads more fun.
Go and ride somewhere where it's allowed.
scale of digging on his land, which to be fair is causing considerable damage compared to just people riding natural-ish trails
Although that's nothing compared to what ever forestry equipment is being used there. Perhaps he is like me and mildly miffed what he used to be able to ride now has big ol' gap jumps to clear.
I will clear them one day.
I probably won't.
agree that some of the big digging is a little un-called for. I wish people would just leave it how it was - nice single tracks and let it be, rather than pushing the limits. All of the forestry work is done miles away from trails (that I know of) so I cant see any danger of people getting hit/hurt by machinery. It would be great to have a peace treaty and agree to not dig anymore and let us ride existing stuff but I imagine that's pretty much impossible to manage. Its been come and go there for years now. Time to focus on other parts around Peaslake I guess. Shame as it was fun!
As above, he's just pissed off with the scale of digging which is understandable, it's his land and we have no right to be building trails through it albeit you seem to think you do. Also after he felled a trail some dick felled some trees across his drive which doesn't strike me as too clever. Think they're getting to the point where they have had enough.
Originally it was a network of cheeky trails ridden by a few with minimal building and a lot of discretion and common sense. Now it is ridden by the weekend masses (often with what appears to be a sense of entitlement rather than respect), it is constantly being developed and extended and it is far from unobtrusive. I think we have been very lucky to get this far and enjoy it for so long but the usage now is taking the p. Shame, but there is plenty of less controversial riding elsewhere.
I know its private land
So jog on then, it's up to him what he does with it and if he wants to cut down his trees (as long as there is no tree preservation order) to stop trespassers riding their bikes then he's obviously entitled to do that, I'm amazed people moan about that!?
If I came and dug your lawn up you would be right pissed off, I see little diffence between that and trespassing or digging illegal trails.
I actually rode those trails many years ago but didn't know they were on private land and stopped when it became apparent.
There needs to be some respect. Sadly some are tearing down the "private keep out" signs that were put up recently, and attempting to restore trails. There are attempts to work with land owners in the area and it doesn't help the relationship to annoy them.
I'll admit I've enjoyed the trails, but when the party is over it's time to move on. Plenty more about.
Also after he felled a trail some dick felled some trees across his drive
Some people are so self entitled it's beyond belief. 😥
This is why we can't have nice things, or better access rights...
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about these things, and making a landowner have to take on the liability / financial impact for some shitty trails is not the right way.
"No impact on him"....apart from the possibility of a multi-million pound law suit should someone have an accident.
It'll be nice once golf becomes the in thing for twunts again...
Stupid w@nkers on mountain bikes contributing towards screwing it up for everybody else who happens to [i]not[/i] be a stupid w@nker on a mountain bike.
Agree with the above. Mountainbikers as a "community" have only themselves to blame for pushing things too far with a sense of entitlement
I met one of the land owners a few weeks back (not while on my bike) and we had a really good chat about the issues mentioned above. He was a really nice guy and along with his father who I also met, are happy to try and make thinks work so that everybody is happy. They realise that most of us are extremely grateful for riding on their land, but he is also aware of a few people who think it is their right to do what they want. Apparently, it's not just individuals but has something to do with a bike mag digging for photo shots too.
bubs - Member
Originally it was a network of cheeky trails ridden by a few with minimal building and a lot of discretion and common sense. Now it is ridden by the weekend masses (often with what appears to be a sense of entitlement rather than respect),
This basically.
I stopped riding there (Surrey Hills) at weekends in about 2004. Became unbearable after that. Luckily I don't really work normal office hours so can often ride there during the week - which is heaven.
Completely understand how the land owners feel... and local residents.
Maybe he should open some car parks with pay machines or donation boxes and all the money goes to paying his insurance costs for liability cover ?
Or some other way of raising money from the mtb community.
Don't now if it would be possible or would raise enough money - but it would save him the stress of trying to fight against the tide of self-entitled riders that visit his land.
chris36860 - Member
Apparently, it's not just individuals but has something to do with a bike mag digging for photo shots too.
Yeah. One particular trail has a few names, one of which is the name of said mag. Trail next to it that got flattened a while back didn't help when they posted videos of them riding the jumps. Though it was also in a stupid obvious location.
Those bits though are a different land owner and the guy who ordered them flattened at the time, did say he was happy to work with bike folk and appreciated mountain biking in the area. Just they were taking the piss too much. That stuff is also on the Hurtwood so is open access (which doesn't mean a right to dig though).
Where are all the big features and piss taking digging that everyone thinks is causing the problem? Milestone came and went and was obviously never gonna work with him. Then One for All arrived with a small drop and Evian came back to life as it was. The cause of his most recent wrath is not the digging as much as the attitude of the people that ride there. I've seen him get abuse from riders when he's asked why people are riding on his land. He is an angry man, best not to poke him with a stick when he pulls up for a chat.
He basically doesn't want people riding bikes on his land. I've had the pleasure of bumping into him on a trail - he was perfectly polite, but made it clear I wasn't meant to be there - the guys who followed down were the fully self entitled w*nker type who subsequently gave him a load of verbal. As usual, helping further compound his opinion.
He trashed the trail a week later.
Evian was rebuilt, the newer one to the right of it had an obvious gap built, the one on the other side of the valley was blocked off, Area 51, Secret Santa had more obvious jumps built at the start.
The jump line right next to Northern Monkey (not sure if he owns that, but regardless, the people at the bottom of the hill hate bikers wrecking and trashing the woods with the original NM jumps, so what do riders do? carve a massive. obvious jump line in there too.
There are endless bloody trails with jumps in them, i'm not sure there is a need to have one on every single hillside.
We really don't help ourselves. Try telling your average SH trailbuilder that too. It doesn't end well. If I was him, with the money he has got, i'd fence the whole bloody lot off - and i'm a mountain biker.
We don't actually deserve to ride there.
first of all OP slagging him on a public forum doesn't help the cause. He is well within his rights. There is a ton of riding around the area.
It's a combination of several factors as DK and Gotama pointed out. It also doesn't help that riding groups are getting bigger with no appreciation for the code of conduct of the FotH. Magazines broadcasting come ride the SH's etc etc. The list is long.
In addition Strava has a lot to answer for as well.
10p if by milestone you mean the big jump line that ran near evian, that land to the left of Evian belongs to someone else. MS was asking to be knocked down.. big jump line in open view on private land.
Hear hear Hobs
Agree with the above. Mountainbikers as a "community" have only themselves to blame for pushing things too far with a sense of entitlement
This doesn't make sense.
Are you saying that MTBers are responsible for the actions of other MTBers?
I am an MTBer, I am not to blame for this.
This is interesting reading. You need to have an open dialogue with the landowner.
If the land is privately owned what right do the riders have to be there?
I used to help out with NWMBA and I have witnessed some of the discussion around access to Snowdon.
If the landowner is open to MTB's why not set up an access group.
Be open about what you want but be prepared to compromise.
Communication here is key, that way the landowner and yourselves can avoid conflict.
You may be able to reach an agreement to continue to ride there , or not. But if someone steps up and becomes a point of contact a relationship can be built and something could be salvaged.
Reading what has been said on here, this is the only way forward.
You can't go building trails on private land and annoying the landowner.
Maybe he should open some car parks with pay machines or donation boxes and all the money goes to paying his insurance costs for liability cover ?Or some other way of raising money from the mtb community.
Don't now if it would be possible or would raise enough money - but it would save him the stress of trying to fight against the tide of self-entitled riders that visit his land.
Why should he? a lot of MTB'ers are tight fisted dickheads with a sense of self entitlement. People would just take the piss like they are doing already. There is enough info on the web about what is legal, toleratated and frowned upon in the area regarding trails yet it's constantly ignored by selfish tosspots.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy. When has having a battle with a land owner ever worked?
Bit late for it but working together with the land owner is common since. Putting together a proposal to have a sustainable trail network and a way to fund some insurance.
The requires the local mountain bike to work as a community.
I was probably a bit harsh in the original post. Its more the disappointment of trails being "open" then closed, then open then closed, trees over them, trees not over them. I have never dug any trails there and certainly do not condone damaging the trees etc (however one could argue that all the trails have caused some damage). Its just a lot of fun to ride! Mag's digging big hits etc is just silly.
I was more after a reason (not that he needs one) as to why he has suddenly blocked them off again as it seemed he was "happier" to allow people to ride there now. I would pay a few quid each time to ride there - no issues with that. The insurance issue is a funny thing - would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump? Surely if you ride there you know the risks.....compensation culture is getting stupid now.
I would be more than happy to be part of a MTB community to discuss and agree on a way forward with him. The problem is trying to control the renegades who insist on building new stuff. If we could agree on x,y,z trails and no more and put signs up outlining that it might work. My feeling is that we have probably lost that area for now, which is a shame.
I would pay a few quid each time to ride there - no issues with that.
Recycle back to Swinley before the waymarked trails and paying for parking, there used to be a permit scheme - £20 for a year or about a pound or two for a day ticket iirc.
The arguments that went on - why should i pay to ride, I've been riding here for years, the wardens will have to catch me first .....
As a group it is always a few nobheads that tarnish it for the rest but looks again like being the case.
As for the 'it's a community problem' - it is. Because if we don't self police effectively, then we will all in the end suffer the effects.
The insurance issue is a funny thing - would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump?
Again Swinley - and the answer is yes. Whether justified or not it creates hassle, and cost, and landowners don't need it.
I know its private land, but...
😆
I can't imagine you'll be getting great swathes of sympathy on here.
a lot of [s]MTB'ers[/s] people are tight fisted dickheads with a sense of self entitlement.
FTFY
This is why we can't have nice things, or better access rights in the overcrowded south east...
FTFY
I was more after a reason (not that he needs one) as to why he has suddenly blocked them off again as it seemed he was "happier" to allow people to ride there now. I would pay a few quid each time to ride there - no issues with that. The insurance issue is a funny thing - would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump? Surely if you ride there you no the risks.....compensation culture is getting stupid now.
If the trails are built by amateurs left as they are then no insurance would touch the risk. Trail centers are built to an agreed standard, with regular checks on the condition. If you had a similar jump you would need to make sure it was visible from a reasonable distance before a commitment was required, it would need qualifiers before the trail, the trail would have to be graded as blue/red/black/orange and the jump suitable for that.
A jump in the middle of an otherwise unmarked trail isn't ever going to be an acceptable risk because the first person to crash and claim* can simply say they were riding down the trail and the trail wasn't to the expected standard.
*not necessarily them, their private medical insurance, or their employer could sue for the loss. The rider could have nothing to do with it or no choice.
Bit late for it but working together with the land owner is common since. Putting together a proposal to have a sustainable trail network and a way to fund some insurance.The requires the local mountain bike to work as a community.
There are efforts to do this but certain builders seem happy to ignore and just keep on building. Aside from the more legitimate group continually knocking down stuff that has been built I'm not sure what can be done.
I understand the jumps at the bottom of northern monkey are going to get knocked down pretty shortly, I just hope the original trail is left as that is one of the better ones in the area.
Paying for parking would be a shambles. People either wouldn't bother or they would just dump their cars all round the village. It's ok paying £4k for the latest carbon but paying £2 to park is beyond reasonable....or something along those lines.
The area has just become too popular for a non trail centre. Word of mouth and the frequency with which it is featured on certain riders social media videos hasn't helped the situation.
Why should he?
As I said, to save himself the stress of fighting the trail building - stress is a killer - he has better things to do - if there was a viable way of offloading the stress then he would be smart to take it.
Maybe then there could be a crowdfunded project to build a sanctioned trail network on his land and an access group that would do the work of pointing out unsanctioned trails so they could be trashed easily.
If the crowdfunding could pay for someone to perform the trail inspection duties to satisfy the insurance then that would be good, but even if one of his employees had to do it then that would be less hassle than now as the sanctioned trails are in a known location.
We could even crowdfund a fairly decent bike so they could get around the trails on their inspection loop pretty quickly before getting back to their actual duties.
They could also move the army training areas up north and free up a lot of that land for leisure activities - which might ease the demand on the Surrey Hills area.
They could also move the army training areas up north and free up a lot of that land for leisure activities - which might ease the demand on the Surrey Hills area.
That would involve moving the army, it's not just a field with a target at one end.
It's 10,000's of soldiers, and their families (and school places, GP's, etc in the wider comunity).
1000's of office staff.
Places to store and maintain the equipment and vehicles.
Proximity to other ranges (S. Wales, Dorset) and Whitehall.
etc etc etc
And then there are issues in cleaning up the land, it's probably not even practical to decontaminate the existing land of all the ordinance, let alone get permission to start peppering some new Northumberland hillside with shells.
It's a huge operation which isn't going to just move to make way for some MTB'ers who refuse to follow a signpost.
They could also move the army training areas up north
What was that about self entitlement?....
Can I build a pump track in your back garden please?
What do you mean, "No"?
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Can I build a pump track in your back garden please?What do you mean, "No"?
Don't ask cfh, just do. Then wee in his shoes if he doesn't maintain it for you.
I feel for Jim, its his land, he can do what he wants. Hate the fact people have been rude to him.
Pretty irrational the trail blocking (up-rooting trees), going to a lot of effort but it's his prerogative.
As for the digging and jumps being too much, most probably a bit odd coming from a BMXer who rides all the jumps over there a lot (not out of choice mind, just where the crowd heads), I do think the digging on that sort of scale is poor taste and actually takes away from the character of the trails. The jumps aren't very good (well BMCC or windhill standard, but to be expected, it's trail fairies building them), the reason why I and im sure many others ride surrey hills is for the good trail riding, which is getting usurped by straight line, easy, boring jumps. To me and my skill set and what I'm after, the jumps are diluting what makes it good there.
If I want to get rad on jumps, i'll save it for somewhere good and whilst in the surrey hills make up natural gaps as a flow along rather than, prescribed, easy, boring jumps.
And then there are issues in cleaning up the land, it's probably not even practical to decontaminate the existing land of all the ordinance, let alone get permission to start peppering some new Northumberland hillside with shells.
yes [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otterburn_Training_Area ]Northumberland[/url] kind of has that covered at the moment. Luckily there's still plenty of room between the incessant bombing for a ride or two.
Unfortunately this sort of conflict is inevitable where you get an accessible and attractive location + a load of humans. I used to ride around there 15 years ago and it was great but nothing like the 'scene' there must be now.
The current trend to hack up woodland for trails seems destined to lead to trouble (if I read about sweet f*ing loam one more time...) if there's no sense of the responsibilities attached to doing so
All the more reason for someone to work to make a official bikepark/trail centre, rouge trails become official trail builders. or at least put a proposal to the land owner.The area has just become too popular for a non trail centre. Word of mouth and the frequency with which it is featured on certain riders social media videos hasn't helped the situation.
But that all relies on if individuals would like to keep the trails they built or have them trashed/closed. Its never to late to build relationships. Fresh slate and try and work to a long term future for a trail network.
It's a huge operation which isn't going to just move to make way for some MTB'ers who refuse to follow a signpost.
What was that about self entitlement?....
there's a lot more people than just mountain bikers down south that need open spaces. Plus a lot of that land was common land that was 'grabbed' for training for WWII - common land that is now not common land...
Considering most of the tax revenue is coming from people in the south and south-east, helping to subsides the rest of the country and pay for their free prescriptions and university education, then perhaps it is justified to consider looking after them with better leisure facilities.
Also consider levels of obesity going up, depression levels increasing, and subsequent cost to the welfare system, etc.
Proximity to other ranges (S. Wales, Dorset) and Whitehall.
all down south - why do they need to be ?
It's a huge operation
thought the armed forces were suppossed to be good at this sort of stuff ?
If the trails are built by amateurs left as they are then no insurance would touch the risk. Trail centers are built to an agreed standard, with regular checks on the condition. If you had a similar jump you would need to make sure it was visible from a reasonable distance before a commitment was required, it would need qualifiers before the trail, the trail would have to be graded as blue/red/black/orange and the jump suitable for that.
This. It's a ballache. But it's the path that needs to be taken to do anything official, and this is once you've convinced the landowner it's a good idea.
I've been trying to convince a few local lads to get involved in 'proper' maintenance recently after they rode BPW.
Local lad: "Why can't we have an upllift?"
Me: "Because our trails are of dubious legality and having an uplift would really piss on the land-owner's chips. However, if you want to help, make sure you don't litter and help maintain trails as it shows initiative, helps build and argument for 'official' trails, and is helping to make them safer for you and your fellow riders. I'll even come and dig with you."
Local lad: " "
Considering most of the tax revenue is coming from people in the south and south-east, helping to subsides the rest of the country and pay for their free prescriptions and university education, then perhaps it is justified to consider looking after them with better leisure facilities.
Eh? Not convinced your numbers are going to add up. And what is this 'free university education' you speak of?
As an aside, a lot of the Welsh and Scottish centres were built with the aid of the EU.
Considering most of the tax revenue is coming from people in the south and south-east, helping to subsides the rest of the country and pay for their free prescriptions and university education, then perhaps it is justified to consider looking after them with better leisure facilities.
Predictable, amusing and depressing simultaneously.
This. It's a ballache. But it's the path that needs to be taken to do anything official, and this is once you've convinced the landowner it's a good idea.
A high level proposal to convert, improve and maintain the existing trail network is very doable.
Uplift? yep why not great way to generate funds to cover maintenance, insurances and expansion.
If anyone is interested in putting together a proposal I can email an example if it would help.
And what is this 'free university education' you speak of?
Is not Scotland : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868
Predictable, amusing and depressing simultaneously.
why depressing to provide better leisure provision in an highly populated area which has a pressure on the existing areas ?
Edit - I canny really be arsed, seeing as it's an area I'll never ride.
Good day.
If I want to get rad on jumps, i'll save it for somewhere good and whilst in the surrey hills make up natural gaps as a flow along rather than, prescribed, easy, boring jumps.
Basically this.
why depressing to provide better leisure provision in an highly populated area which has a pressure on the existing areas ?
Because more people probably use the council swimming pools in Bracknell and the surrounding areas than Swinley.
Cost of a pool, a few million?
Cost of relocating the Army, a few billion?
And let's be honest, the popularity of MTB will wane, just like sailing, roller blading, BMX, windsurfing, and golf have before it.
And (again) as you say, it's not just MTBers that need open spaces, but you don't get complaints of picnickers building tabletops on private land.
Everyone I used to ride with on the Surrey Hills now rides a road bike, me included.
Everyone I used to ride with on the Surrey Hills now rides a road bike, me included.
I don't! 8)
But admittedly my mtb mates do!
Anyway, I can't believe this thread has got this far without the Landowner being labelled 'an Evil Tory'.
Everyone I used to ride with on the Surrey Hills now rides a road bike, me included.
One man in the woods with a shotgun telling you to get off his land is nothing compared to the endless hatred you will surely face at the hands of the surrey motorists telling you to get off their roads?
why depressing to provide better leisure provision in an highly populated area which has a pressure on the existing areas ?
How about assessing some of the less wealthy London boroughs by their tax contribution and the level of benefit they receive and if they fall below a certain threshold, move the residents out somewhere else - up north perhaps - bulldoze the whole area and build an urban outdoor leisure sports zone accessible only to 45% income tax rate payers. Sounds fair?
Anyway - Scottfitz has the right idea - do it legitimately and collaboratively or sooner or later it'll get shut down.
Everyone I used to ride with on the Surrey Hills now rides a road bike, me included.
Not everyone you used to ride with has "gone soft" Muddy. 😉
why depressing to provide better leisure provision in an highly populated area which has a pressure on the existing areas ?
Most of those area's are true blue, and they cut those sort of services. Perhaps you should vote different?
Hmm, the army are slowly moving out of the south east, it's just they're selling off the land for housing instead.
It's always been a problem, but now it's much worse because of people advertising the trails on the internet. Previously it was possible to keep trails quiet, now...
How much of Winterfold does this guy own ? And which bits ?
[url= https://goo.gl/Tzz4wH ]Map linky[/url] with arrow pointing to top of double chevron road climb. Which bits to the NW are off limits ?
Considering most of the tax revenue is coming from people in the south and south-east, helping to subsides the rest of the country and pay for their free prescriptions and university education, then perhaps it is justified to consider looking after them with better leisure facilities.
No one's forcing you to live there.
allthepies - Member
How much of Winterfold does this guy own ? And which bits ?
Map linky with arrow pointing to top of double chevron road climb. Which bits to the NW are off limits ?
Easier is to look at the areas which are permitted or at least generally open access (to ride, not dig). i.e. the Hurtwood lands. The car park map is pretty good for that as it shows the Hurtwood bits shaded.
Main area off limits is Winterfold Wood, just north of shaded bit by car parks 12,13 & 4. Boundary is at the end of Evian, hence the private signs right there.
Gets more complicated as I believe in the recent sale of Hurtwood land he bought some of it. Never quite got it confirmed but I think that includes Northern Monkey.
However so far his issue is the main area, which is main site of forestry work and where he lives anyway I understand.
Ta.
All the people I rode MTB with in the Surrey Hills still ride in the Surrey Hills and the trail builders still build trails but not in obvious places like Winterfold
Does anyone know which trails the OP was talking about as being bulldozed?
All the trails to the right of Evian - SS, 14A, S'backs, Twix, new Carpet Land that sit on JMcA's land.
DK he has bought Bentley Copse, Windmill Wood and Jelly's Hollow so yes I think NM falls under that area if my map plotting skills are still right.
The table top (?) to the start of Vauxhall Nova has been flattened but it looks like a lot of drainage work on Pitch on the fire roads so not sure what that is about but have asked.
b****x 🙁 some of those have been there for years.
Glad I got a few recent spins in down there then. Hopefully they will pop up again.
(but thanks)
just spoke to a reliable source - apparently all jumps and areas seen as unsafe are being pulled down, landowner has had enough lots of damage and disrespect.
I would love to have seen someone fly the mega jump by summer madness. I wonder if that will be destroyed.
Given that the litter I referred to was right in the middle of the sensitive area, we have only ouselves to blame. I for one am a little guilty as rode switchbacks (badly on the bends) and three amigos when that was restored despite Big Jims trees across the end of both trials.
Shame that we have got to this.
landowner has had enough lots of damage and disrespect.
If he didn't have the liability concerns he wouldn't give a damn I reckon - why would he as surely he is only interested in the trees growing and then logging them in later years. As long as any trail building doesn't disturb the trees then I wouldn't think it matters much to him.
If people injured themselves badly on his land because of riding the trails they built then I suspect he would just laugh about it and not be bothered - as long as there was no possibility of financial liability.
Perhaps a positive step would be to talk to him to see if his opinions are coloured by damage, littering and disrespect, and what is driving his decision making, rather than make sweeping assumptions and statements on a public forum about what he thinks and why he acts like he does.
Talking personally, these elements would influence how I thought about dealing with something. But I'm not him.
By talking openly, perhaps some sort of agreement/solution could be found.
Sorry guys, it's not bulldozer tracks that's my new wheel size!
Useless on tight turns but no punctures yet.
Perhaps a positive step would be to talk to him to see if his opinions are coloured by damage, littering and disrespect, and what is driving his decision making, rather than make sweeping assumptions and statements on a public forum about what he thinks and why he acts like he does.
There are relevant people currently talking and working with him on the matter.
The name in the web address bar is pretty similar to a prolific digger in the area - how ironic
Must have been editted out of the thread title
Anyway, I can't believe this thread has got this far without the Landowner being labelled 'an Evil Tory'.
😆
Most of them are. Probably just taken as given now. 😉
Sonor - Member
Everyone I used to ride with on the Surrey Hills now rides a road bike, me included.
Not everyone you used to ride with has "gone soft" Muddy. 😉
Last time I saw you on your MTB you were riding the Tamsin trail in Richmond Park, now that's what I call soft! 😉 😉
Very interesting posts, one thing Jim is not liking is when building jumps causes fire in the forest like it did in aug 2015 and wrecked 1.5 acres of wood.... you can still see the blackened trees and burnt wheelbarrow near 14A. Purely unacceptable.....
Last time I saw you on your MTB you were riding the Tamsin trail in Richmond Park, now that's what I call soft!
Ha! Still "off road", still on a mountain bike! 8) 😆
Tuskaloosa- is that all jumps/features on all trails or just the stuff on Jim's land?
Gotama - unsure tbh. I know McA owns 1/2 of Pitch now which I think is the bottom half. The other 1/2 is owned by a keen mtb'er.