[Closed] Most Efficient Climbing 120mm Full Suss

Specialized Camber. Borrowed one from the LBS and it blew me away! Was wondering if I really need the 150mm I've currently got.

The best climber I have ever demoed is the epic carbon 29 ER. Ok only 100m but big wheels make it feel more. Raced up the hills. Tested while demoing a series of bikes with grouped of ten riders. Riding the epic was the only time I left the others behind and for the first time opened my eyes to the difference between bikes.

Great descender too - just a problem with the £4k price tag!!!!

X post with ska. Tried the camber 29er and that was not far away. Anthem 29er similar and priced between the two.

Giant trance. Just bought one and love it. Wasn't keen on the looks but looks much better in the flesh and it climbs like a mountain goat. Much happier on the way down than the anthem as well due to the angles and extra travel. Not much heavier either.

Did anyone else spot this in that link about suspension design:

"The motor on a motorcycle is a very predictable machine, the motor on a suspension bike is about the most unpredictable machine imaginable (especially on a woman’s specific models)"

😉

Specialized Camber. Borrowed one from the LBS and it blew me away! Was wondering if I really need the 150mm I've currently got.

I borrowed a camber yesterday for a quick blast around the Surrey hills. It was a bit blinged with hope hoops and so on but I couldn't believe how much easier it is to pedal up hill than my heckler - I used to think it was all much of a muchness, but I am now thinking I don't need 150mm either, as it was pretty damn good downhill too.

vinnyeh - Member
Maverick mono link, for sure.

Yep, if only they had the geometry sorted for steep climbs I'd still have mine.

I would have to disagree on a 29er being the most efficient climbing 120mm regardless of whatever brand. I reckon their 26" wheel version on a climb would blow the 29er away from what I have found.

You can go on and on about how there's going to be a bigger contact patch and how it'll make rock gardens on the climbs easier all day long but after coming off the spearfish on all kinds of climbs,nothing beats a good 26 inch wheel for plugging away at slower speeds. I feel I can accelerate easier and keep the momentum going so much easier on my turner flux,also my zesty with 5lb extra weight!,over the lighter spearfish.I even went lightweight with non tubeless tyres on stans rims,pro 2 evo's but it just doesn't cut it on steep slow stuff. Like I guessed years ago with the hardtail 29er.. it really is the problem of accelerating the bigger wheel at slower speeds that makes them 2nd best for me.

so, maverick monolink (in any guise,even an ML8 would blow a lot of 29ers away if anyone would give them the chance),giant maestro,turner with the dw in its flux are my top 3.

Yep, if only they had the geometry sorted for steep climbs I'd still have mine.

What do you mean specifically? You on about the relatively slack seat tube? Run a layback Thomson back to front, trust me, solves everything. Cos as far as I'm concerned, I've never ridden a better bike for steep climbs, long climbs, technical climbs, whatever... I don't worry if the bike can get me up a climb, only if I've got the leg power to get me up.

I would have to disagree on a 29er being the most efficient climbing 120mm regardless of whatever brand. I reckon their 26" wheel version on a climb would blow the 29er away from what I have found.

29er's are awesome on terrain where speeds are more consistent. 26" wheels win out in situations where acceleration and manoeuvrability are more important, or in other words, really technical climbs. Though don't forget, it's still 99% rider and 1% the bike!

so, maverick monolink (in any guise,even an ML8 would blow a lot of 29ers away if anyone would give them the chance),giant maestro,turner with the dw in its flux are my top 3.

ML 7/5, Durance & ML8... 😉

Mmm I see a pattern developing here. I'd need some dark glasses to own that though 🙁

Seems like the ML if you're blind, the ASR-5 if you're not. 🙂

Kryton57 - Member
Seems like the ML if you're blind, the ASR-5 if you're not.

Orange 5! 😯 with the shock blown up really hard. Worked for me 😀

"my Anthem bob peddling up steep hills?

Having said that, whilst it's a 100mm, it works brilliantly with 120mm forks.

I'd think that the Giant Trance ought to be a pretty good 120mm climber"

(bit of an aside but) this is confusing me
(IIRC) Anthem is/were 90mm. Anthem X is 100mm, Trance is/were 106mm then I think 100mm for 2008 only before Anthem X replaced it. Trance X is 127mm?
Or are you just missing the X's out

All this talk of bigging up of mavericks traction and frame weight is making me think I bought the wrong frame. A Guapo with wound down fork isnt bad, reckon better than the '07 SJer FSR it replaced. My guess would be itd be down to the extra chainstay length
With the prices JeJames were offering them a Maverick would been cheaper too ..

There are a few bikes > 120mm travel quoted here?

The suspension on my Flux works a bit better than the (similar) Maesto system and that is 100-120mm travel.

Plus climbing/sprinting out of the saddle is fine with no side-effects over a hardtail that I can feel other than better grip.

You're not West Yorkshire based are you, or anyone for that matter to arrange a spin?

Hi James,

Yes, I was missing out the x. I've got an Anthem X1 2009. I run it with a RS Revelation 100-130mm fork which I run soft (a bit too much neg air pressure) to get an ultra supple 90-120mm travel.
If I were to get a 120mm frame, I'd demo the Trance X as I'm assuming it would feel very similar to the Anthem X in use, which I find suits me.

Having said about the bob on climbing (which it does, there's no doubt about that), I'm off out in a minute to get my self some ergon grips with bar ends because I'm missing that 90's feeling, out of the saddle and go like stink up a climb, which I thing the Anthem would excel at with the pro pedal on!

The new Epic 29 climbs really well (I tried one a few weeks ago). But I found that the Cannondale Rush was a good climber when I rode one and I assume a carbon one would be lighter and better at it.

Don't be swayed by all the marketing BS, a decent designed single pivot bike will be as good and any bike with a comparable weight and spec.

Tom KP

zerocool - Member
Don't be swayed by all the marketing BS, a decent designed single pivot bike will be as good and any bike with a comparable weight and spec.

Is it me or do we keep coming to the conclusion the answer is ASR-5? 8) 😀

Seems like the ML if you're blind, the ASR-5 if you're not.

The ASR-5 is no looker mate!

My Durance may be aesthetically challenging to some, but I actually quite like the way it looks, it's not pretty but it is form follows fucntion and the function is absolutely spot on.

Is it me or do we keep coming to the conclusion the answer is ASR-5?

I've not ridden one, though on paper the design at least looks like it should climb well, the main pivot point (the most important thing really on what is essentially a single pivot bike) is in about the best position it can be IMO. Cannondales normally have their main pivot in the same place too, and Cannondales always climb well for a single pivot bike. But I'd say anything with a Maestro (ie. the Giant Anthem X or Trance X at 120mm) or a DW link (like the current Turners) will climb a little bit better, just through my own personal experience.

All this talk of bigging up of mavericks traction and frame weight is making me think I bought the wrong frame.

Mavericks aren't for everyone. I love mine, but many who've ridden them complain about how "inert" they feel. That is to say, you never really notice the suspension working away underneath you. IMO that's the sign of a good suspension bike, the suspension moves when it's supposed to (if you attached a Go-Pro pointed at the shock, you'd see the suspension is actually very active), but the rear axle path (parallel to the front axle path uniquely) does make it feel like its not doing much to some people.

Personally, I only have one criticism of my Durance. It's long... Very long for a 5" travel trail bike in fact. But then part of why it's so good at just about everything is for this reason. It climbs better than anything else (which nobody else is disputing), descends like a bike with much more travel, it's light, the shock is very simple and is easily user serviced, it's stiff laterally etc etc. It's just it's 3" longer in the wheelbase than my hardtail (though its probably still shorter than an Orange 5), so it's not the best bike for mega tight switchbacks.

mboy - Member

Seems like the ML if you're blind, the ASR-5 if you're not.

The ASR-5 is no looker mate!

Eh? Next you'll be telling me you wouldn't entertain Kylie.... 😉

...but many who've ridden them complain about how "inert" they feel. That is to say, you never really notice the suspension working away underneath you. IMO that's the sign of a good suspension bike, the suspension moves when it's supposed to (if you attached a Go-Pro pointed at the shock, you'd see the suspension is actually very active), but the rear axle path (parallel to the front axle path uniquely) does make it feel like its not doing much to some people....

I'd wondered when anyone was going to shout "Pivot" but I guess they are either side of the 120mm criteria. IMO that ^^ applies to Pivots too. In my paranoia prone head I didn't like the mach 4 I rode becuase I like to feel the sus moving about - I tells me its doing something - I know others feel differently. But it did lead me to believe it was being very efficient. When I returened it to its owner and rode behind him, I could see his wheel moving up and down plenty.

One wonders then thats there's a fair bit of personal "feeling" and riding style in this type of thread and is there really a way to prove one is better than the other? Or is the criteria really "the bike you feel you can climb the best on"?

mmmm interesting thoughts......here's the C'dale geometry if anyone wants to poke around and knows what they're looking at.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Eh? Next you'll be telling me you wouldn't entertain Kylie....

She's getting on a bit these days fella! 😉

I'd wondered when anyone was going to shout "Pivot" but I guess they are either side of the 120mm criteria

Now there's a bike that hit every single branch of the ugly tree on its way down! 😕

One wonders then thats there's a fair bit of personal "feeling" and riding style in this type of thread and is there really a way to prove one is better than the other? Or is the criteria really "the bike you feel you can climb the best on"?

There was a quote above somewhere about the engine on a motorbike being very consistent therefore suspension is easy to design and tune for desired properties on a motorbike, but the engine on a Mountain Bike is exceptionally inconsistent... So I'd say in answer to your question, a resounding "YES", it's mostly feeling and perception from one design to another. On single pivot bikes though (and any iteration such as linkage driven shocks), main pivot placement is easily the most important thing.

mmmm interesting thoughts......here's the C'dale geometry if anyone wants to poke around and knows what they're looking at.

Steep seat angle helps, main pivot point is pretty good for middle ring or granny ring climbs, though it will noticably bob more in the granny ring. Fairly short chainstays so it will be easier to weight the back wheel and get traction, though the downside to this is it will be less stable on steeper climbs. Overall Cannondale Rushes are good XC bikes though, designed for Tinker Juarez iirc as he wanted longer travel than the 63mm Scalpel for his 24HR Solo racing... Needless to say, he's won a few races on the Rush too.

Cannondale Rushes are good XC bikes though, designed for Tinker Juarez iirc as he wanted longer travel than the 63mm Scalpel for his 24HR Solo racing... Needless to say, he's won a few races on the Rush too.

Maybe a good look at my suspension setup/pressures may be something to really try and dial in correctly, but don't want to compromise on the way down.

Maybe a motorbike is the answer!!

I've got a Carbon Rush too and it's a great bike. I wouldn't change it for anything. I've done a bit of racing on it and the weak link is me and most definately not the bike.

By all means, get a new bike if you want one (nowt wrong with that!), but don't kid yourself that it will make you better on the climbs. If you're looking to improve your climbing abilities you should maybe re-focus your training regime (you do have one right 😉 ) or take a course that looks at improving your technical climbing ailities. Or if you fancy something shiney, get some nice light wheels and some carbony goodnes. 😀

Its not so much my climbing abilities, I'm very aware of the shock bobbing or active under pedaling. I have the shock firmer than the usual sag to try and compensate a little and its in Pro-pedal most of the time. Maybe lockout is what I should be using. I just dont like having to faff every few minutes with shock levers 🙁

Mine has been lavished over the last two years with more bling than is justifiable to be honest, I think the frame was the last thing to replace haha 🙂

Any pics of your Rush

Its not so much my climbing abilities, I'm very aware of the shock bobbing or active under pedaling. I have the shock firmer than the usual sag to try and compensate a little and its in Pro-pedal most of the time. Maybe lockout is what I should be using. I just dont like having to faff every few minutes with shock levers 🙁

Mine has been lavished over the last two years with more bling than is justifiable to be honest, I think the frame was the last thing to replace haha 🙂

Any pics of your Rush

Its not so much my climbing abilities, (I am a riding genius) I'm very aware of the shock bobbing or active under standing pedaling. I have the shock firmer than the usual sag to try and compensate a little and its in Pro-pedal most of the time. Maybe lockout is what I should be using as its an RPL shock. I just don't like having to faff every few minutes with shock levers 🙁

Mine has been lavished over the last two years with more bling than is justifiable to be honest, I think the frame was the last thing to replace haha 🙂

Any pics of your Rush

Damn triple posting pap. Third one edited!!

"I have the shock firmer than the usual sag to try and compensate a little and its in Pro-pedal most of the time."

It seems that the a big reason fully suspended bikes bob less is to damper technology. Basically stopping the suspension working!

Interestingly there is no lock out or increased low speed compression damping on a Maverick. The suspension is allowed to work all the time and the damper is simple.

having owned a flux and now a asr5, i would say that the flux is a better climber, but the asr5 is a better all-rounder.

the propedal on the asr5 doesn't really work due to the low-compression tune on the rp23 shock (according to mojo anyway who i would hope would know a little about it all).

loving the asr now... so glad i changed from the flux

loving the asr now... so glad i changed from the flux

bit of a change from a week ago:

don't get me wrong, the asr5 is an epic steed... i just never really acknowledged how absolutely amazing the turner flux was (aside from skinning my ankle on the fatter-than-fat chainstay)

how have you 'fixed' the ASR?

Do the maestros or DWs suffer from any chain growth?
The intense 5.5 I demoed years ago was a bugger for it, every time you'd come to a technical rock step climb, it would try and stop you pedalling just at the critical moment.

Can't say I've ever noticed it on the anthem, so I guess the answer is no, it doesn't.

Function over form, but I think they look great, and I've just bought [s]an[/s] the other one.

FIFY

@ campfreddie - then why do yeti, in the ASR 5 manual recommend riding the bike with PP position 2 (or 1 for 2011)?

Just interested.... I have a propedal thread going on... And ride an ASR 5...

Why has the Raleigh Activator 2 not even been mentioned......

Its not so much my climbing abilities, I'm very aware of the shock bobbing or active under pedaling. I have the shock firmer than the usual sag to try and compensate a little and its in Pro-pedal most of the time. Maybe lockout is what I should be using. I just dont like having to faff every few minutes with shock levers

I'll be honest now, if any small amount of pedal bob (the Rush is a pretty efficient design) is that much of an issue to you, and you're bothered about climbing ability more than anything, buy a hardtail! Seriously...

All full sus bikes move when you pedal them, it's in their nature. You can minimise the bobbing somewhat on a Rush though by manning up and using the middle ring more. Single pivots are susceptible to bob when the main pivot is in line with the middle ring and you're climbing in the granny. Climb in the middle ring instead, or even better, ditch it all and go 1x10...

Interestingly there is no lock out or increased low speed compression damping on a Maverick. The suspension is allowed to work all the time and the damper is simple.

Despite what Fox, 5the Element, Manitou et al would have you believe, the suspension design is the important factor, not the shock. A "clever" shock is just a case of putting a plaster on a wound, it helps fix it, but it doesn't solve the problem in the first place. What the Maverick platform does is totally remove any rider induced movement from the whole act of propelling the bike forward. Essentially it is the closest anyone has come to the holy grail of removing the rider from having an affect on the movement of the suspension, allowing only the terrain underneath the tyres to influence when the suspension moves. As a by product you can run a highly active shock that means it is better at dealing with the bumps anyway, and it goes uphill, downhill and along dale better than anything else.

The downsides? You decide... But lots of people think an orange 5 is a good looking bike, but the Maverick is ugly! And looks sell bikes in the UK (ever seen a Mondraker on the trails? Or a Mongoose full sus? Me either!), not performance in general...

manning up and using the middle ring more.

Im Going to try and get a ride on one of these legendary ASR's and then I can make an informed decision. If my Rush climbs better, I'll stand by the result and not waste my money.

I have had an ally Rush for about 6 years now - although all that remains is the frame and lefty. I keep toying with changing it, but then I ride it and realize it is such a wonderful bike. Planted, descends well and climbs like nothing else. Granny ring climbs 'dig the back wheel in for amazing traction. Just a shame they stopped producing it.

I wouldn't mind upgrading to a later carbon one, but to be honest my setup weighs 25lb and I managed 15th at BBF on it so can't be too bad!

It survived the Transwales from hell (2008) when other bikes were giving up, covered many thousands of miles with no issues. The Lefty has been serviced once and the shock just about requires its first service. Changed the shock bushes once - it just goes on and on. As you may guess - i like it a lot 🙂

Mboy,I know someone that used to own a Maverick and he was also told that by paul turner (or one of the other guys at Maverick) about reversing a thomson set-back. He binned it and bought something else.

My trouble was the height I ran the seat. I have a short upper body but 32" inside leg/5'8" so the amount of post I had out of the ML7/5 seemed more than I have seen on anyone elses maverick. It threw me right over the back. Not a problem at all on the flats and easy climbs but as soon as things got steep.. it was a joke. Even with a u-turn pike wound down.

I always fancied sourcing a few maverick rear ends and keeping them for a rainy day. The idea of making a front end to bolt onto that rear (if it was done right)could possibly be one of the finest bodges ever made in mountain biking. Another thing to look at is how possible it is to steepen the seat tube. Not by much but if you check the durance picture in the geometry page, you can see where things would be possible. Easier said than done but still possible.

If someone had a crack at it before it all ended then the reversing of set-back posts could have been a thing of the past. Or future.. who knows.

Oh well.

R.I.P.

Sounds like someone wants a new bike 😉

I would echo what others have said to say that your Rush is highly unlikely to be holding your climbing back. I was so desperate to buy a good condition Rush before settling for a Santa Cruz Superlight.

I tried many other bikes and to be honest they were all much of a muchness. The all have slightly different riding style biases but the biggest deciding factor for me was geometry (getting the weight distribution right to be nicely balanced between climbing and descending) and practicality (such as mud clearance, reliability, etc).

I would say spend the time setting up your shock or send it off to someone like Loco... then it's up to you to improve the rest of the 99% of your climbing 😀

P.S. Rush pics please! 😆

Aw maaaaan, a Superlight was on my list too. They're little rockets, a mate of mine had one for a while before selling for a 5 spot, the pedalling power really translated to lurching forward and that was riding back to back with my Rush.

The RPL shock can't be 'Pushed' so I'm told so its just a case of messing with pressures I guess.

Pics of the tatty old battle ax:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=12816441

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=12816441

haha that made me chuckle...cant remember the last time I used the Granny, tonnes of road riding has given me thighs of Zeus

Good. So ditch the granny then! Go 1x10... 😉

Seriously though, it's not the bike holding you back. Possibly you could improve the setup, but the bike is more than good enough. As a side note, if you did use the granny, what will happen is as you pedal it will actually pull the back tyre into the ground a little bit more, which to a lot of people "feels" like it's giving more traction. It's not, it's just making it bob more, but a lot of people confuse that with a great climbing bike. IMO the best climbers are totally neutral, like the Maverick. Though your Rush when in the middle ring isn't far off neutral to be fair.

My trouble was the height I ran the seat. I have a short upper body but 32" inside leg/5'8" so the amount of post I had out of the ML7/5 seemed more than I have seen on anyone elses maverick. It threw me right over the back. Not a problem at all on the flats and easy climbs but as soon as things got steep.. it was a joke. Even with a u-turn pike wound down.

Ah, you've got a similar problem to me only more pronounced. I'm 2 1/2 inches taller than you, with 1 inch extra in the leg. Maverick recommend I should ride a large frame... NO WAY... Be way too much of a stretch! I'm fine on a medium thanks, but my seat is quite high compared to most people my height.

Thing is though, I've got a Durance. They steepened the seat angle on the Durance vs the ML7/5, not by a huge amount, but a degree or so. It's enough to make a difference, and when combined with a reversed layback Thomson, I can easily get the saddle far enough forward for a very efficient pedalling position.

I always fancied sourcing a few maverick rear ends and keeping them for a rainy day. The idea of making a front end to bolt onto that rear (if it was done right)could possibly be one of the finest bodges ever made in mountain biking. Another thing to look at is how possible it is to steepen the seat tube. Not by much but if you check the durance picture in the geometry page, you can see where things would be possible. Easier said than done but still possible.

Speak to Ethan, until recently the owner of Maverick Bikes. He's got loads of spare back ends, and also main frames too so I understand. Was having this Conversation with iDave the other week, both of us agreed if we won the lottery, we'd be getting a custom geometry Carbon Fibre Mainframe built up to fit a Durance back end to... And probably trying to prize a set of prototype DUC36's out of Ethan's hands!!! hehe