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Janesy - proves my point, to a degree. Brain is just a damping function of the shock. The FSR system is good on its own, but the Brain system is just a development of the shock, not the actual suss design.
Scott Genius is perfect, when on the move its easy to lock up travel, change to mid travel or full travel without stopping, it does it all.
Had mine for 3 months now and wouldn't swap it for anything else.
I see what your saying Pyro. - Its not just the suspension design its how it works with the shock.
My knees!
Yeah, true. But it goes with my idea that there hasn't been a great deal of development in actual suspension design, just minor tweaks. Someone else noted that things like ABP etc were all trying to mirror the characteristics of the Horst Link system, so the development of things like platform damping, the remote reservoir in the Brain, characteristic tuning etc have been the major advances in suspension, not (to as great a degree) changes in linkage design or pivot position.
If Horst Link is considered "best" why did Turner go to DW (via TNT) considering DW is also an under licence pay-for design? Cheaper or just horst made non available?
Tony Ellsworth spat the dummy and specialized withdrew their licence.
I've just gone from a HL 5spot to a DW one, and, TBH I think the DW is an improvement. The one thing it deals with very well is squat, which was really my only criticism of the HL. I wouldn't know if its 'the most technologically advanced suspension system' but its got to be up there in the running.
The Specialized 'Brain' was basically Specialized's way of admitting that FSR bikes are a bit shi'ite under pedalling loads (ever ridden a Norco Six or Shore uphill? LOLWTF....) so solve the problem by locking out the rear end! I'm not sure that no suspension when going uphill is the answer..... My old Trek Session 10 was better for technical climbs than my hardtail, when it came to traction. The fact that it weighed nearly 50lb was a slight issues though.
Anyway, rearward axle path FTW. Whether that be single pivot with idler, DW, Banshee etc, I don't think it matters too much.
i personally liked the maestro system on my 10 anthem x2.never needed the propedal once (and that included road sections) as for greatest cheeses though this blew my mind,when i tried a taster yesterday.i just had to buy one (from a barge on k & a canal,between bath and bradford on avon :D[IMG] 
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Obviously there is no real answer
But I think one of the huge benefits for people like me who are a bit ignorant is that single pivot is much less set up sensistive than alot of more complicated VPP bikes
The say has to be set up correctly for these.
On a single pivot if your not getting full travel as you're options are limited and to complex for me
single pivot let some air out.....
(am I correct?)
Single pivot bikes look more simple but in fact have all the same set-up issues as anything else. If it's an air can, it has to be the correct size for the suspension design, i.e don't put a large can on a falling rate design. The compression / rebound factory settings need to match the design too. It's not just a matter of setting sag.
(ever ridden a Norco Six or Shore uphill? LOLWTF....)
LOLWTF...yep.
norco six for the last 4 years, up & down a lot of hills!! in one respect it pedals uphill better than its replacement (nukeproof mega) because the the chainlength doesn't change much & therefore the suspension stays active/tracks better than a linkage driven SP. the mega's steep seat tube angle is great though!
OT but just to let you know, the brain does not lock the shock 😉
"OT but just to let you know, the brain does not lock the shock"
Mine definetly doesn't because I leave it as turned off as it will allow
It tends to deteriate quite quickly to feel quite knotchy and lumpy over bumps when switched on. Even when it briefly does work properly its still noticable that there is a slight lag between hitting the bump and the shock opening up, (though this could be that it needs the riders wieght/reaction force for the shock to 'know' the bike has hit a bump?)
Its an '07 Stumpjumper (so nothing like as 'locked' feeling as an epic), but I believe newer versions are much better
I'm under the impression that:
FSR is supposed to be active all the time (pedalling, braking), the problem being nobody pedals in perfect circles and the majority of FSR/Horst bikes having derraileur gears meaning the front lower pivot isn't always inline with the chainring chainline, people move their body around on the bike and the back of seatstay brakemount isn't 100% active like treks concentric ABP
Would I be right in thinking if you had a singlespeed/hub geared single pivot like a brooklyn (I assume this gets round the chaingrowth/bob/chainring inline with pivot issue?) with a Kona Style DOPEsystem floating brake mount you would get a decent result?
Bellend Brie
Interesting debate. Just to add my 2 cents, everything between your hands and feet and the ground interact with how a bike rides. Structural rigidity, tyres, tyre pressures and the design of chain/braking torques all make a big difference. Most of all though, the huge difference is shock technology. Imagine (or experience) the difference between riding a single pivot trail bike like an orange 5 with a basic fox float r shock, and a cane creek double barrel. A great damper might not be able to save a terrible design, but a poor damper can certainly ruin a good one. Personally, it seems to me that as shock technology improves, the difference between linkage designs is becoming more about patentability and marketing than performance. Witness WC DH, different race winners on different designs each claiming to be 'the best'. The real common factor is they are all ridden by awesome riders with custom damper setups.
Anything that requires propedal to work is out of the running in my book.
I would say dw-link as it doesn't require propedal, does all that 'square hit' stuff well, and seems to convert all your pedalling effort into forward motion rather than losing some in the suspension.
maestro is pretty good as well, but the dw-link on the turner felt like it worked better, which is why I spent more on a turner.
The superlight I tried at the same time had a nice geometry but required fiddling with the propedal and also felt less efficient at pedalling unless almost locked out.
However if your pedalling action is very smooth anyway it probably negates a lot of these differences, so then you might prefer a bike for other reasons (fit/geometry/etc)
Do people actually think they can feel differences between bikes when they ride them? I mean, blindfolded and put on an FSR and then onto a DW link? I'm not convinced at all. I've ridden a lot of bikes and they all kind of feel the same to me...
Don't get me wrong, I like these academic discussions, and I'm glad there are some boffins working on intelligent designs, otherwise we'd still all be riding Unified Rear Triangle bikes from 1994. But can your average STW rider REALLY tell the difference between one manufacturer's 2011 finest and another? I am skeptical.
Funny thing is, my Horst Link 5-Spot was good, but not fantastic. Then I changed the shock to a coil, set up by TF. Transformed the bike.
I have no idea whether it's the 'best' suspension design, but the shock hardware makes such a huge difference that you might as well pick on that as the actual design, within reason.
And my single-pivot Patriot (again, coil-shock from TFT) has never once made me think "if only it had a different suspension design".
Maybe I'm not fussy enough, maybe I just get used to the limitations of a bike, but for me the rear suspension is far less critical than the fork.
Do people actually think they can feel differences between bikes when they ride them? I mean, blindfolded and put on an FSR and then onto a DW link? I'm not convinced at all. I've ridden a lot of bikes and they all kind of feel the same to me...
yep, totally. the pedal feedback stuff mainly. and mainly when ascending on rocky ground, so in a low gear. the feeling of the chainlength changing as the suspension compresses to track the surface is really annoying for me - i found this on DW / VPP and my linkage drive SP (mega). i can notice the motion of my pedals being interrupted, which is a bit off-putting especially at a time when it needs to be totally controlled. it is something that i have been getting more & more used to, but for me this is why the FSR/Horst is the best linkage design.
going down, don't notice any difference really. i don't notice 'brake jack' at all, whereas some people do...
Superficial - to a degree, yes. While I wouldn't fancy riding blindfold to prove it, I could easily tel the difference in the suspension characteristics of the 3 full-suss bikes I've owned (Marin single pivot without platform damping, Trek EX with propedal/ABP, Trek Top Fuel without platform damping)
Even between the two non-Platform designs there was a noticable difference - the Marin bobbed like a bugger, the Top Fuel much less so. The EX refined that and the platform damping tuned the bob reduction even further. Brake jack I notice to a lesser extent - the EX definitely felt better braking through stuttery sections, but I couldn't define exactly how or why. There's a good chance it was the ABP, but I couldn't have told you that for certain at the time.
MTB suspension is possibly one of the most complex mech eng problems out there - so many variables, so little power available and such importance on strength+stiffness-to-weight.
Suspension is too complex for 99% of people to really understand. That's why so many brands make wild or blanket-statememnt claims about their suspension - they don't fully understand it and work with a small number of people that really do, then market the hell out of the result. I don't get it in detail, I understand the mechanical principles but the maths that dictate exact pivot positions would be a full-time, long-term project to get to grips with and even then I'm not very confident I'd get it right.
Choron's post's right on all points. As much patent engineering goes on as linkage engineering - you can't patent bike geometry but suspension designs can be owned so they're chased and protected.
Basically, position of or migration of pivot point is crucial. The pivot point is determined by the wheel links - either a swingarm ('actual' pivot point) or 2 long (FSR) or short (DW, Maestro, VPP) links that give a 'projected' pivot point.
For any given point in the wheel's path, trace a line between the link's pivots - where these lines converge is the projected pivot point at that part of the travel. This PPP dictates wheel path, so best thing is to decide on a good wheel path (chain growth and anti-squat considered) and look for a design that gives you the PPP that allows this as well as fits packaging requirements.
Short links give a lot more variation in PPP across the travel than a long link like an Ellsworth that gives the least for a 4-bar. A Rocky ETS-X sits in between these 2 extremes. A swingarm is a direct wheel-to-pivot link so there's a fixed pivot point.
ABP / Split pivot uses a concentric axle pivot to have an actual wheel pivot from one wheel link / a single pivot - but 2 brake links (chainstay and shock link) give a projected braking pivot to tune brake influence seperately from the wheel pivot / chain influence.
So there's no 'best', just many variables and ways to do it and it's worth trying a few to see what you like most. Some of us notice the differences and are fussy about them, some of us can adapt to a bike more easily. Shock tune is more important than anything provided the basic sus design is good.
And don't try to really understand the linkage-waffle unless you're mathematically gifted.. )
Back to the OP
Motorbikes are generaly linkage driven single pivots.
Cars fit into different categories.
*McPherson Strut, one wishbone and the hub sits on a telescopic leg.
*Live axle, and the various linkages designed to keep them still.
*Independant wishbones, generaly reserved for expensive sports cars as it's bulky and harder to get right.
The diference between a car and a bike is the car has to work in six dimesnions (up/down, foreward/back, latteraly, rotateing, camber and steering), the bike only has to deal with three of those!