After my run in last week with the ground been thinking about one of [url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Reviews.aspx?ModelID=45391 ]THESE[/url], so waste of space or sound investment?
My opinion is you should've bought one last wednesday 😉
A mate of mine has one and swears by it, he's managed a couple of decent faceplants and it did the job. Seen a couple of people make use of the face protection too and it seemed effective.
I don't like them though, the jawbone sticks out an awful long way which seems like it'll attract impacts and increase twisting etc. So I decided against it myself. I've nothing against the idea but the execution doesn't seem right.
Someone'll post that pic of the guy with the broken Parachute and cut face in a minute I reckon... But they won't speculate what the guy's face might have looked like without the helmet 😉
geordiemick00 - MemberMy opinion is you should've bought one last wednesday
**** off
I got one as I wanted a lid for road, XC and trail centre riding. Peak off for road use, peak on for XC and full face for trail centres. It meets the requirements fine, but isnt that comfy in full face mode. Taking lid off and putting on with the jaw guard is a bit of a pain around the ears, but I can live with that.
Sound investment IMO, although not tested its toughness, gladly 🙂
I've rubbed my face along the ground a couple of times with mine. I'm happy with it.
I've just bought one. Initial worries about it being too warm were soon allayed, it is better ventilated than my Xen. It is not noticeably heavier either, nor does the chinguard interfere with my field of view. The chinguard is quite pointy- perhaps to help deflect your head sideways onto your shoulder for support?
To date I have a couple of niggles though.
I need to take my glasses off to put the helmet on, then put my glasses back on.
I feel silly in it on some rides- so I use the Xen on those ones where I don't wan't to feel too gnarrly.
I forget about the chinguard when I want a drink, and it gets in the way. I can manage this though.
I have had a cold that I cannot shake off since before Christmas. Hawking up and gobbing out a big lump of phlegm is something I'm not keen to do again in a hurry 😕
The chinbar is not tested as a part of standards testing and contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts.
Had one for a couple of years and it did the job fine, used it in the alps and hit the floor and got face deflected from the rough stuff. Took plenty of heavyweight knocks and is still in the garage.
Feels very light weight compared to proper full face.
Now will pull up a chair and wait for the posts explaining how it will explode on impact etc. etc. etc.
I bought mine with a view to using it in the Alps. I'm usually happy enough riding all the South Wales trail centres with out pads or a FF hat, but decided to get one anyway.
Prior to MTB I did a lot of white-water kayaking and would regularly use a FF helmet.
Been my only choice of helmet for years now (previously a Giro Switchblade). Looks flimsy and a bit shit if I'm honest, but the chinguard does a decent job. Saved my face a few times, most recently nosediving off a 4' skinny onto my 'nads/stem and face/skinny. Couple of scrapes on the chinguard (not my face), nice lump on my pubis bone...
I was considering a change back to something like a Giro Xen prior to that most recent event too. Not now.
I bought one after a face / rock near interface. It is OK, but I found the padding way too thin, which made it rub, so I've gone back to using roadie lids instead.
If you're instinct after crashing is to pad up more, and more and more...then buy a Parachute for XC riding.
Otherwise, perhaps you might want to get some expert advice as to why you spanked your face into rocks in the first place - in which case get some skillz! So, give a decent instructor a call.
[i]The chinbar is not tested as a part of standards testing and contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts.[/i]
So you definately know it will do little to take energy out of impacts because it hasn't been tested? (how do you know, until it has been tested?)
Soz TJ, I know your'e Anti Lid! (dunno any of your other Aunties though.) 😉
I've got a Parachute but I've not yet crashed & burned while wearing it.
essel - because it is the EPS that absorbs the energy in helmets. Thats what reduces the injury - having the deceleration over a longer distance and some of the enrage getting dissipated in the collapse of the EPS. That is how helmets work.
As there is no EPS in the chinbar then these two mechanisms cannot work and they are the main ways that a helmet reduces injury.;
the jawbone sticks out an awful long way which seems like it'll attract impacts and increase twisting etc
That's so it's not a PITA for breathing etc
The chinbar is not tested as a part of standards testing and contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts.
It might stop stuff going into your face though. Has been said the jaw-bit splits and goes right into your face though.
Hmmm, I've actually busted 2 lids from whacking my heed on, a) a gate, & b) a tree stump. Don't think either had an EPS thingywotsit though, & I suffered no serious injury from either.
I am however conviced that the 'gate' incident would have been very different without the lid. (I did see stars on impact)
[i]That's so it's not a PITA for breathing etc[/i]
It's a PITA for gozzing though. I kept forgetting, & hockling into the chinbar!
I've got one, and although not a replacement for a full face I do think that for many more minor offs on XC rides it will protect the face as it should.
essel - all helmets have EPS - thats the Expanded PolyStyrene liner., Its the main bit of the helmet and the bit that absorbs impact
TJ, I still think the gate (Wark Forest) would have come out on top had I not been wearing a lid. (wasn't a Parrotshoot mind)
There again, it was a very unusual situation!
I think they look horrible.
Must admit, when I see one of them out xc riding, I do think his mum made him wear that, and the knee pads, and elbow pads, and shin pads, and back brace etc.
If you really feel your face is that pretty that you'd put that contraption on your head then fire on. 😀
Otherwise, look at how you managed to eat dirt in the first place and deal with it in a fashion conscious way. 😆
What meaningful difference would EPS make when compression is not, and cannot be, the failure mode?
Al - go and read up on how helmets work or read my explanation above. The EPS absorbs the energy. It gets comnpressed between your head and what yo hit. Thats how helmets work. They don't need any rigidity.
That's why helmets only work once.
It's not quite that simple though, the chinpiece of any full facer isn't designed to absorb blows in the same way as the skullcap (after all it's mostly not in contact with anything). It'll transmit some energy into the foam elsewhere though. Same with motorbike helmets, the amount of foam in the chinpiece is vestigal (it's only about 10mm thick on my Arais but that thin foam is also full of air vents).
But, that's only one part of it... Riddle me this, if gloves don't have EPS or any similiar way of reducing an impact, does that mean they can't protect you in a crash? If you take a hard hit full on the chin, it'll push the helmet back and it'll most likely not make an enormous amount of difference to the force of the blow- if you were going to break your jaw, then most likely you're still going to. But, you're not going to scrape your face off on a load of rock. It'll also potentially do a bit of spreading and relocating the blow (a tree going for your teeth won't get there)
the amount of foam in the chinpiece is vestigal (it's only about 10mm thick on my Arais but that thin foam is also full of air vents)
Indeed. There's actually zero on my MX helmet.
Full face helmets are to stop you getting gravel rash on your face.
See above TJ.
I don't disagree with that northwind - apart from my FF motorcycle helmet has significant EPS in the chinbar. Chinbars on motorcycle helmets are not tested either IIRC.
All I was doing was pointing out the limitation of a helmet like the met parachute. Teh casco viper is a similar function helmet abut the chinbar is eps hence it will have greater protection
Al - go and read up how helmets work - as usual you actually fail to understand a fundamental point
I know how they work, stop grasping for assumptions about what I have said.
How can a chin-piece fit close enough to the face for compression to be the failure mode?
*hums* "the circle of life"
Oh, missed this one:
Me: the jawbone sticks out an awful long way which seems like it'll attract impacts and increase twisting etccynic-al: That's so it's not a PITA for breathing etc
It sticks out further than my proper full face and it makes no difference to breathing, despite having more structure and coverage.
Al - I suggest you go and read up on this. You clearly don't understand how a helmet works or have grasp of the physics involved and you won't accept an explanation from me.
Northwind YOU WANT TO BATTLE ❓ 😡
My point was it's not close to your face, and when they are they're a PITA as they steam up yer goggles, tough to drink etc.
It was also about how EPS is not relevant.
TJ how does EPS in something a few cm away from your face achieve anything? it will break before absorbing any impact, unlike the shell?
Seriously, I think I understand how helmets work (I've broken half a dozen in crashes), but if I am missing something then let me know.
Al - its clear you actually have no idea about how helmets work.
Because the eps gets crushed between your face and the ground!
Absorbing some of the energy and reducing the magnitude of the deceleration by making it occur over longer distance
The forces involved are such that in a helmet like the met when you face plant your face will hit the inside of the chinbar as the helmet rotates round the head. With a rigid plastic chinbar you face will receive the same blow as it would without a chinbar - the only difference being as northwind says the gravel rash would be reduced but not the bone braking forces.
The rigid shell gives almost no impact absorbence - all it does is hold the eps in place.
Northwind YOU WANT TO BATTLE
Sure... Let's do this the old navy way- first one to die loses.
Buuut, my point stands, it sticks out farther than it has to and that's not good since it could turn into a nice lever in a crash, and it'll hit the ground at times when your face wouldn't get close. There's a balance here but if I can drink and breathe [i]almost[/i] normally in my Strike, with its far more enclosed chin which is much closer to my face, then the Parachute could be closer without problems. And that'd make it a better helmet. TBH I think the lack of competition means they get away with a fairly unambitious product.
Sorry TJ but you're not making your point well. And kind of playing into Al's hands.
Yes you are right, just because I asked a question, I have no idea about it at all
🙄
Seriously, take a longer break and stop making things personal.
TJ change the bloomin record!
It is not designed to work like a normal full face helmet. It is there to provide a little bit extra protection to those not wanting a full face helmet.
It will act to deflect some objects and also to act as a guard rail moving your head left or right or rotating it instead of you taking an object square in the teeth.
If it breaks then the energy used to brake it is energy that is not going into your face.
I nearly got one but the missus said it was too expensive and teeth can be fixed (she is jealous of my teeth). She was buying my new helmet so she chose a Hex. TBH after seeing other MET helmets I wasnt that keen on the build compared to the latest Giro. I will just hopefully manage to tuck my head down or cover my face.
Either way it is going to help in a lot of situations that are likely to occur on a bike. TBH I think all helmets should come with the option of a face guard of this kind.
Northwind I think I'm older than you, so you may win, folk do say I look young for my age though.
TJ do you remember bringing up Coultard's full face helmet for kids? You said that is was designed with the chin piece really close to the face? Because the chin guard EPS doesn't work or at least doesnt work as well when it's further from the face?
So you have previously argued my point, and against the point you are currently making.
Got one and seldom use it, with or without the chinguard.
OK final point from me on this, I got one I used one, it worked, i don't give a crap about the EPS in the chin bar it works well "Deflecting" the face from the floor. Although it has not been tested on the dummy head in the lab I have tested it in the field and was very happy with it's results
For those who recommended skills I used one while I pushed myself and improved my skills (whilst being self employed at the time) I also where knee/shin on all rides and elbows on some as the rocks and trees hurt!
When pushing my limits I prefer to take some extra protection
I have one.
I have a normal lid for 90% of my rides but like the parachute for trail centre type rides - or rides where I am likely to throw caution to the wind and go faster than I probably should.
It's not going to save my face from the worst of plants but seems fairly sturdy to me and would definately save my gob from a good portion of impact. If nothing else it also provides peace of mind and a little more confidence.
As someone else said , it's not designed to be a full face helmet, more something that bridges the gap between that and a normal xc lid. They are not particularly comfortable and they make drinking awkward but in some situations I'm glad to have one. All you have to do is read the otb face plant thread from last week - besides I don't like dentists!
Cycnic al - I did not argue what you said, I am not arguing against a point I previously made, you miss the point and fail to understand again in your haste to attack me.
Your failure to understand of course means I must be wrong.
what a suprise. 😯
TandemJeremy - Member
The EPS absorbs the energy. It gets comnpressed between your head and what yo hit. Thats how helmets work. They don't need any rigidity.
TandemJeremy - Member
All I was doing was pointing out the limitation of a helmet like the met parachute. Teh casco viper is a similar function helmet abut the chinbar is eps hence it will have greater protection
You are saying that the Casco works because it has EPS in the chin-guard?
You've previously said EPS chin-guards don't work unless they are close to the face - the Casco one isn't.
Those 2 positions seem to contradict one another to me. If I have misunderstood you then feel free to express yourself clearly.
Mrs beanz and a friend both bought these before our trip to morzine
for a bit of a confidence boost , first day friend has a big otb and face plants , gets up take helmet off .. all good no face injuries . was very pleased she`d got the met on and not her normal helmet .
not good for , eating snacks , drinking from a bottle , spitting out dirt and trail dust .
dos`nt interfere with you breathing or grinning or enjoing the trails .
Don't feed the trolls
if you hung it upside down in a sunny spot i reckon you could grow strawberrys in it.
I got one as I fractured my cheek (well zygomatic arch) playing rugby and it gave me loads more confidence as my cheek to ages to heal. Fortunately I didn't test it. It has sat unused in the cupboard for a while now.
🙄TandemJeremy - MemberAl - I suggest you go and read up on this. You clearly don't understand how a helmet works or have grasp of the physics involved [b]and you won't accept an explanation from me.[/b]
I will always remember the accident I had when BMX racing many many moons ago. It was on the final 4 whoops and I fell over the front and smashed my chin guard against one. If it wasnt for that chin guard, I would have been visiting A+E. That chin guard was on my YES helmet, that had no impact lining and was fastened to the helmet by metal poppers.
As said previously, I also own MX helmet and that has no protective lining on the chinguard. Deflecting the impact is the aim of this type of chinguard.
Sure... Let's do this the old navy way...
I thought that would involve bending over and droping your trousers. The first one whose eyes starting watering loses.
As for the helmet, regardless of the pros and cons of it's impact absorbingness.
You'd just like a tit in it 'cos they're hideous.
I've just had a look to see when the thread was started. Yesterday! I wasn't sure if it was the one started in 1997, 1998, twice in 1999, 2000, 2001, at least three possibilities in 2002, etc.... 🙄 Not that it's been done (to death) before or anything.
honest opinion of helmet
firstly it's far too ugly to even contemplate buying, secondly it does have a rather pointless weak chinguard (From the one's I've seen other people wearing it sticks out too far and doesn't actually protect their chins)
TJ - how many times have you actually crashed in a full face and the helmet's taken a hit? You seem to have read far too much on the theory but have **** all practical experience or common sense to bring to your arguement, if you had any experience of wearing/crashing in one you'd realise that during most types of (DH)mtb crashes the chin guard rarely needs to absorb an impact in the way you describe.
Al - how old are you? I thought you looked about 40, are you actually nearer 50 then?
don simon - Member
I've just had a look to see when the thread was started. Yesterday! I wasn't sure if it was the one started in 1997, 1998, twice in 1999, 2000, 2001, at least three possibilities in 2002, etc.... Not that it's been done (to death) before or anything.
Sorry did I wake you up? 🙄
Why arent there any 'american football' style chin protectors on bike helmets?
I'm sure TJ will talk about them not having bloody eps either, but they'll stop a f4t b4st4rd y4nk's fist from taking your face off.
... or ice hockey... or cricket?
OP - friend of mine swears by his, he lost his front teeth in an over the bars in a conventional lid and after healing up started wearing parachutes, he has gone down a few times and broken a chin guard but thinks the helmet has saved more pain and expense. Non-scientific but he seems happy and its a lot lighter/more comfortable than a full face. I'm considering getting one myself (or possibly a casco viper).
they look a bit daft.
the end.
GW - cheeky! I like it. I'm 42, ie a bit younger than you.
TJ I love how I won't accept the explanation you refuse to give me.
Is that the new TJ defense? Or is it "you've asked a question therefore you haven't a clue about this? Or are you developing a repertoire of defences to add to the chewbacca and others you currently use?
cynic al - I know from attempting to explain to you on this thread and on many others that it is a fruitless task.
I have given you an explanantion on this thread but you reject it completely without any reasoning or understanding.
You will NEVER accept any explanation I give, you will attempt to find fault in anything I say, its an utter waste of my time and effort discussing anything with you.
This is such a silly argument.
How can having solid plastic in front of your face not provide more protection than having nothing?
Simple test for TandemJermy: Press left side of face into belt sander for 3 seconds with no protection. Then press right side of face into belt sander wearing that helmet. Compare and contrast. Replace belt sander with sharp rocky manky ground at 20mph and repeat. Be sure to post a pic of the results for us!
Its not trying to be a full on full face or motorbike helmet, just provide some face protection for those crashes that cut your chin and knock yer teeth out. Bit pricey though!
TJ, you do realise that a chin guard transfers the shock into the main body of the helmet, therefore letting the EPS cushion the acceleration forces of the head getting planted? The chin guard itself rarely has any real padding as it isn't supposed to come into contact with the face. If it did have piles of EPS in it, to work properly it would need to always be sitting against the face - this may hinder eating/drinking/talking/breathing/etc.
Trust me on this as someone who can happily show off the marks received from a full-blown face plant into a Dunkeld rock garden. Or is that doesn't work, how about using a chin guard + visor of an MX helmet to knock myself out against a tree at Innerleithen (GW's to blame for that one - prk 😉 )
I didn't say it did not protect from scrapes and bruises - just that it will offer little protection from major frontal impacts
You should read what I actually say
Legend - thats not how they work. The EPS on the rest of the helmet will be unaffected if the chinbar is driven into your face. The EPS absorbs energy aby compressing - hitting the chin bar will not compress eps on the rest of the helmet
Cheezo - There is a huge magnitude of difference between being hit by a fist and hitting something solid with your face. American football style guards would be very minimal in their effectiveness as they would have the same flaws as the met parachute
TandemJeremy - Member
cynic al - I know from attempting to explain to you on this thread and on many others that it is a fruitless task.I have given you an explanantion on this thread but you reject it completely without any reasoning or understanding.
You will NEVER accept any explanation I give, you will attempt to find fault in anything I say, its an utter waste of my time and effort discussing anything with you.
Where have you attempted to explain?
Loving the prejudgement. Plenty of times I've helped you, supported you or accepted your explanations - including re. the "TJ defence" very recently - forgotten that already?
I could say "TJ, you will NEVER stop being Walter Mitty" but I don't like saying "never".
Read the thread and read what I wrote
And stop witht eh personal insults - you don't like it so don't dish it
Read again TJ, the chin guard on a full facer shouldn't compress, it should tranfers the force of the head moving forward into the main body of the helmet..... where the EPS is. Chinbar (on the silly parachute thing) is solidly connected to the main helmet (in theory at least). The force travels along the bar, through the connection - you now have the full head being accelerated with the support of the main helmet. As long as the chin bar/guard stays intact the amount of EPS, or otherwise, isn't important as it never makes contact with the head/face in order to be compressed.
As GW asks, do you have any actual experience of wearing/crashing in full face helmets?? Sadly it's long for the bin, but the afforementioned Inners helmet was a prime example of chinguard intact but foam crushed beyond use - and that was a crash hard enough to see me slung into an ambulance on a spine board
Out of interest why was the switchblade which did have deformable foam get discontinued?
And would TJ think it would work because it has it? 😉
legend the helmet will rotate around your head until the chinbar hits your face given a seizable impact.
You head will be moving away from the rest of the helmet so it offersno support
Surely someone has hacked TJ's account and is deliberately trying to make him look stupid...?
epicsteve - I merely was trying to be helpful to the OP who was looking for information
All I said was
TandemJeremy - MemberThe chinbar is not tested as a part of standards testing and contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts.
And get the full on flaming for it.
People have very strange ideas about how helmets work which is why I put the link to a simple explanation of them
legend the helmet will rotate around your head until the chinbar hits your face given a seizable impact.
really?? reeeaaaallllyyy???? and this is your masses of experience of face planting in full facers that tells you this? Strange that in 10 years of face planting in everything from Giro Switchblades to Carbon THEs that's never happened once, not once. Weird huh?
Please flounce off again
TandemJeremy - Member
Read the thread and read what I wroteAnd stop witht eh personal insults - you don't like it so don't dish it
well don't you start it then 🙄
Still non the wiser re. your so called "explanation", and I have re-read the thread. If it's important to you then it shouldn't be hard to at least point us in the right direction, if you could possibly lower yourself.
legend the helmet will rotate around your head until the chinbar hits your face given a seizable impact.
W.
T.
F.
❓
Has Julie forgotten your meds?
Legend - yes really. The magnitude of the forces are that great. Try doing it by hand - pushing the chinbar into your face then consider how much greater the forces involved a an high speed accident are
Cynic al - what a surprise. More insults and of course you will not accept anything I say as predicted. 🙄
Thanks for the interesting comments on this thread and I'm so glad that everyone has a different POV, but protection is a personal thing and somethings work some don't so I'm going to try one on this week and see if it actually fits my bonce.
TJ, could you answer my question above please, would a chin guard with EPS work?
IYO obviously
TJ give me your explanation then? Of course I am going to take the piss with how you have spoken to me on this thread.
I'm not the only one to think WTF at the second quote.
Of course you can just refuse to provide any explanation then you can go on forever saying how I never listen to anything you say etc.