[Closed] MBUK's Ti bike test...

not read it yet, what was the conclusion then?

Hmmmmm... let me guess, was it an OnOne that won, perchance? 😉

Being Brant's mates 'n' all..

(Clique-y, clique-y)

Nope... the Ti456 wasn't tested. You're close though 😆 Suprisingly enough there [i]is[/i] a new 'ultimate hardtail' on the pedestal... cynical, me? 🙄

Let me guess......does it start with R and end with agley?

do the new ratings go up to 11?

Oh.. what-a-surprise then..! 🙄

What a bunch of consistently self-serving gits.

Ragley got beat by Whyte 19. Sounds like they prefer the Cove Hummer over the Ragley as well, although all 3 scored 9/10.

I wonder if the 456 TI isn't being tested because it's still THE ultimate TI hardtail and that if it was included the Ragley may not shine quite so brightly?

I am not a fanboy of either and would never consider an on-one nor a ragley (though do have an on-one top that we bought for a moment for which you had to be there 😉 ) but it would make sense to test the newcomer against the current ultimate ti hardtail.

Ragley got beat by Whyte 19. Sounds like they prefer the Cove Hummer over the Ragley as well, although all 3 scored 9/10.

lol

I'm finding mine difficult to fault - an OnOne Ti29er (ergo the name).
The more I ride it the more dust my Turner Flux gathers.
I did read that one of the freelance testers, Guy Kesteven, has fallen for his Lynsky Ti29er too, against both his and other's expectations.
I too took the time to try the OnOne against other bikes, not something most riders generally get to do with this brand.

I love my 19Ti (but I also love my other two 19's as well) 😀

I heard an independant bike mag reviewer was the best man of the owner the new Ti frame company thats about!
Is that an unbiased independant review then?

psychle and no_eyed_dear i agree with you both 😉

I wonder if the 456 TI isn't being tested because it's still THE ultimate TI hardtail

Bah, the ultimate Ti hardtail is [b]still[/b] the mighty Kobe.

i bumped into the people testing the bikes. There was a 456 Ti amongst them, but it wasn't included in the test because apparently it was no longer in production (though it still seems to be for sale).

Not ridden any of them, but if it were my money i'd buy the whyte

cove :. canadian :. I'll hate the way it rides

Brant/P-X/O-O realy seem to struggle when it comes to making good looking bikes, In know it shouldn't matter, and on a £125 steel hardtail it probably doesnt. But at a grand?

mogrim - Member

I wonder if the 456 TI isn't being tested because it's still THE ultimate TI hardtail

Bah, the ultimate Ti hardtail is still the mighty Kobe.

For ultimate Ti hardtail read Jones 3d spaceframe [cough] [cough]

I'd forgotten about the Jones!! 🙂

cove :. canadian :. I'll hate the way it rides

you should read mike ferrentino's column in the latest stw mag. 🙄

all 3 scored 9/10.

So obviously none of them were as good as the ti456, which scored 10/10. Simple.

Don't get the moaning. Surely at the top your moaning that Brant's bike wins but it doesn't, the Whyte does. So what's the shocker?
If the Radley did win despite not being the best then there's a problem and you can complain about mates rates and all that but it didn't.

my Ti456 is a far better big hitting trail bike than the 2006 Hummer which preceeded it....the Kobe before that was also an awesome bike, but the Ti456 has such an excellent layout, long TT, short stem, great BB height, it's just so well executed.

i'd like to hear guitarhero 's take on it too as he preceeded his Ti456 with a Hummer too......

I think they concluded that the Whyte performed as most people would 'imagine' a Ti hardtail would ride [i]out of the bikes on that particular test[/i] which is an important distinction.

I think they decided the Ragley was just a bit too radical. Again compared to the bikes on this test...

forgot to mention that the new Hummer has taken it's lead from the Ti456 with a Lynskey built frame and revised geometry, but they've continued along the lines of a short TT meaning a longer stem is still necessary, and this is one of the beauties of the Ragley and Ti456 in that the long TT allows use of a 50 / 70mm stem which provides brilliant steeering input, etc.

sorry for my poor punctuation above 🙁

[i]the Whyte performed as most people would 'imagine' a Ti hardtail would ride [/i]...which would suggest that comparing "Ti hardtails" was a fairly meaningless exercise in itself, as the key thing that determines a bike's characteristics is not frame tubing material.

I really, really struggle to care about scores in these reviews. If something is definitely rubbish, I want to know. Most things aren't. But the idea that a mark out of 10 in one of these tests is any serious proof that one bike is meaningfully better than another is daft. I'm sure the Ragley is super. I'm sure the Whyte is super. Which one people buy is just not going to be that influenced by the review, it it?

Yep. You're probably right. Wrong test really, the bikes are pretty different from each other, only common ground is the material.

I thought it was a very fair review, focusing very much on "who" would like each bike and illustrating how bikes can be made from similar materials and be very different in terms of purpose and handing; not better or worse, just different; horses for courses; blah blah.

what a lot of bitchy comments at the start of this thread!!!!

stop being such magazine snobs and go and ride your bikes

The bit that annoyed me was the way they marked the genesis down for not being "extreme" enough. It's not meant to be FFS! They didn't really mark down the ragley et al for not being milemunchers etc etc.

Just because they're all titanium HTs doesn't mean they can all be tested against the same criteria.

I'm sure the Ragley is super. I'm sure the Whyte is super. Which one people buy is just not going to be that influenced by the review, it it?

Probably, yes. People take magazine scores waaaaay too seriously.

I did find the MBUK ti HTs roundup a more informative read than the ST one, although that wasn't just because they'd given marks out of 10.

I read the article and to me it really didn’t make any sense to me at all. I seem to remember reading that Brant had told them to run a short stem but they tried it with a 90mm stem anyway. On the score thing at the end the Ragley was best or equal best for Value (8), Climbing (10), Descending (10) and Single-track (9).

The Whyte 19 won but they basically said it wasn’t that much better than the Aluminium version and the Ragley didn’t win because it's the least “Ti like” that’s my reading of it anyway.

slight hijack here - but how independent is any bike review? Is the fact that specialized bikes never get less than 9/10 connected to the thousands they spend on adverts in every copy of MBUK or MBR?

I know people in the industry who claim to have been threatened with legal action if they give a bad review.

At the end of the day, it's just someones opinion and we all like different things in a bike.

why, what's he say?

Unless the canadians have droped their BB's by an inch and lengthened their TT's by a similar amount and steepened the HA's (i.e. what most british manufacturers are making) then I hated them years ago, and i'll still hate them today.

So if the Whyte won and didn't ride much differently to the Aluminium version, I've saved a fortune buy keeping my Al. one... Result!

i never read bike magazines TBH nowadays but if i was to buy a Ti frame it would be a Merlin, mainly because i've always grown up and wanted one and in my eyes its the pinnacle of titanium frames. OUt of interest, whats other peoples conclusion on the Merlin, is it still a fab bike in todays standards or is it a retro yesteryear bike needing a makeover?

mainly because i've always grown up

No you aint shorty!

No you aint shorty!

Least i aint grown out. Shouldn't u b working anyway??

The worse thing is i was measured at 5'8 at school and am now just over 5'7. I'm shrinking, aahhhh

interesting corollary to reviews and advertising in the motorcycle world. Bike magazine (biggest UK circulation m/cycle mag) slated the Ducati 1098 in stand-alone and head-to-head tests. Ducati pulled all its advertising, and Bike commented on that fact.

Then Bike got a Ducati 1098 as part of their long-term test fleet, and you know what, they loved it.

Totally coincidentally, Ducati now advertise again in Bike.

What a strange selection of comments. People seem confused because the test doesn't really fit any of the conspiracy theories. Personally I thought it was a well rounded overview. Predictably, they all scored well because they're all great bikes. I'm guessing the One One wasn't in there because they've already tested it 🙂

Have to say, I was the marketing man for a bike company and distributor about 10 years ago - we had no/very little advertising budget and very rarely advertised. We did however always supply bikes and products whenever we had something that would fit in a group test and our products usually got good, fair reviews (we even won the WMB bike of the year one year). I know it does help if you have a good relationship with the writers, but I don't think it's all about the budget. Most of the big advertisers are big, well funded companies and most make really good, if often mainstream products.

Hicksy

But the test they carried out is flawed from the beginning. Surely if they are testing frame only they need to build all 4 bikes using the same components, using the same tyre pressures etc...

On that basis every comparative test in every bike mag is flawed

Interesting to come back to this now folks have had a chance to comment. My take, FWIW, which ain't much, truth be told, is that it was a pretty fair test, trying to get across the characteristics of four fairly different bikes, so that riders looking to blow a wad of hard-earned aren't so likely to waste time looking at a bike that isn't really appropriate to the style of riding they do. I've read all the reviews and opinions of the Ti 456, and, as an owner of two On-Ones, that would be the obvious choice. I also owned a Hummer, so on the strength of that background, my choice of a new Ti frame, should I be in the market, would be between the Cove and a 456Ti. In fact it would be the Ragly. I really like the look of it, and it looks like a bike I could abuse without feeling guilty about it, whereas the Cove would have me holding back, in case I dinged it. Irrational, perhaps, but that's me all over 😉

I own a VN Mamtor and I don't recognise the review in ST at all, I'm very happy with it, but I guess thats my opinion...What I do know and can't be disputed is that it's a darn sight cheaper than the other options based on frame price alone.

For other reviews I've seen my previous bike Pace RC405XCAM described as the 'ultimate UK trail bike'..pound for pound my GF HiFi was a better bike..and nearly half the price!

I think allot of these reviews should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Use them as a part of the judgement process, and not the complete deal

not sure i 'got' the ragley 'til i saw one in 18bikes last weekend - tis a nice thing.

i do know of one writer who resigned because the publication he was working for wouldnt publish what he realy thought about a bike

HoratioHufnagel - i bumped into the people testing the bikes. There was a 456 Ti amongst them, but it wasn't included in the test because apparently it was no longer in production (though it still seems to be for sale).

Steve Worland says this on Bikeradar:

"We asked them for the new version but they couldn't supply in time. The old one, which still heads up the long forked hardtails in the WMB buyers guide, might have out-shone the Whyte 19 Ti, which MBUK buyers now know was the most popular on the test. But I suspect it would have been a close call."

and also

"As I explained in the http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12635724 link, we asked for a new On One and they couldn't supply, and it wasn't just a 'next week' situation. They couldn't give us a date. So the Genesis got the slot.
Do people really still think that bikes only get included/praised if someone advertises? Look a little deeper. Was the 10 out of 10 On One ever advertised? A lot of bikes tested are from advertisers, simply because they tend to be popular and interesting brands.
John Moore... I still think the Jones was one of the most stunning (and surprising) bikes I've ever tested but we can't include one for the cynics to ridicule every time we test Ti hardtails.

PS We asked for a Cotic Soda too, but like On One Cy is waiting for the new ones."

Oh, and has nobody noticed that another bike mag which you may have heard of also did a Ti hardtail feature this month, and also didn't get either a Soda or a 456?

They don't exactly give a "best and worst" conclusion but the Whyte got the best overall comments despite them saying that the alu one makes more sense, while the Ragley also got very positive comments. Very similiar result to MBUK, so why aren't they being accused of bias, hmm?

I guess it's a difficult time for bike testing though - Cy and On-One aren't just getting new batches of frames, but basically rebuilding them from the ground up to fit the new EU legislation. I suppose the big boys are already on it, but the smaller manufacturers are still working on it.

I suppose i've cocked up by ordering my Ti456 ? Never mind, it's my choice.

Odd that on-one couldn't supply a ti456, the standard sized 18" frames seem to have been in stock in one form or another for months and months. Mind you, judging from Steve Worlands comments it might well have have won if it was close to the Whyte but a fraction of the price?

Hmmm, I remember a magazine giving a bike 8/10 despite it breaking while on one of the test rides, quite incidently the foreign test ride had been organised by the bike company.

I noticed last year one brand had very good reviews despite dodgy own brand shocks that kept failing or performed badly. Funny how this year they are even better and oh last years models weren't that good after all.

Grrr

maybe there is some bias in the mags. mbr liking specialized a bit, saying they'll never review a c'dale rush cus the bb is too low! nutters. 😉 But maybe, just maybe, Brant is a good frame designer. Maybe On-ones and Ragleys are good, maybe Cy's doing a great job etc.

Whenever I've been in contact with with Brant or Guy Kesteven (limited experience I know), I've had a really positive response. Personally I think we should be really proud of the smaller british bike companies and the mags are really pretty good too - seriously, try north american magazines... shocking.

d a really positive response. Personally I think we should be really proud of the smaller british bike companies and the mags are really pretty good too - seriously, try north american magazines... shocking.

CZ - You've never noticed a bias at Future? Their love affair with Scott can't be missed surely? If anything its worse than MBR and Specialized. Their recent love-ins for all things 'Charge' are quite obvious too, being a local (to them) company probably helps a little too with courting.

Carbis - we've always been at war with Eastasia!

Northwind - Steve Worland says this on Bikeradar:

Seems to make sense. Why would they test a bike they've already tested.
Anyone know if there's a new 456 coming too?

new Ti456? why would we change the 10 out of 10 frame? although there have been a few modifications talked about here in the office.

Just to put the record straight , and Im not sure what Steve has been smoking down there but we were never asked to supply an on-one ti 456 in any way shape or form, absolutely no contact or request was made to us .
Of course wed have love to have been asked and we could have supplied ex stock on a 24 hour turnaround , its a bit bizarre what Steve Worland says on Bikeradar cos it simply aint the case , no need for porky pies , and wed have been extremely happy to sort a bike out .

Its really quite bizarre , but as Brant used to say hey ho .

so a magazine tests a bike, it comes out on top.....whatever next?

People have been banging on about Ragley's on here and i'm sure a few people will buy their frames

What exactly is the problem then? it's just an opinion regardless how loaded it might be, the only difference is that it was MBUK that made it. I'm sure if it was Singletrack that printed exactly the same review then you'd all be taking it as gospel.

I bought an album once based on a review, i didn't like it, i got over it.....although mabye i should sue Mojo

Hmmmm... I think the point here maybe that:

(1) MTB mags weild a considerable amount of commercial power in terms of influencing what people buy (particularly those masses of less experienced riders whose only source of proportedly 'unbaised' info is likely to be said magazines - as opposed to their local Specialised / Trek / Giant etc. retailer, where bias comes as an expected part of the package)

(2) There are resonable grounds to be reasonably suspicious that certain bike mags are in cahoots with their advertisers / ex-journo-bike-manufacturer mates / cronies.
.
.
.
.
(And... (3) A certain ex-journo-cum-bike-manufacturer seems unable to produce a frame, whether it be for £150 or over £1000, that ain't just a touch fugly 😉 I jest..)

Just red this
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12640035&start=40
The Ragley review is on that sight too

Most Ti Frames are never designed or worked to their full potential.

For the most part we are short changed.

-Hand me down alloys.
-half measure working processes
-designed to a cost

I've only ever seen one Ti frame that ticked all the advantages of the material utilised and that was an un-branded prototype... which was stolen about 10 years ago and never seen again. Needless to say the frame was cost prohibitive for re-sale and production.I Have a couple left from earlier designs which are very close... B-)

Bicycle titanium production has only scratched the surface of the materials capabilities ... but then again how far do you need to go...? A little bit further I would say,(But then I'm biased B-))

-Frames still crack
-too heavy for the cost
-not stiff enough for opt performance
-too stiff for comfort

It's a wonderful material that can make something very special if you step out side from what is easier to access and to work with and use your imagination. The Whyte could have gone further... but ask yourself a question, How much would you pay for something that gave an unsurpassed ride in all areas,2,3,4,7 grand for a frame.

I have an unbranded Ti frame that is 18 years old and still out rides anything ridden since... and others riders that agree. This frame if produced today would retail probably at about 4 grand plus. Is there a market for it.Possibly!

Still love the stuff

Zone

Daveplanetx, don't know if you've noticed but there's a further post on Bikeradar...

Someone once said "In between the truth and the truth lies confusion"

"Dave at Planet X/On One is aware that we have his email explaining why he couldn't supply the 'new' 456. The confusion lies in that word 'new'. We'd already tested the Lynskey built 456 so there wasn't a lot of point getting it in again. But we'd heard there might be a new Van Nicholas built one on its way, so we asked if it was available yet. The answer was no. Quite simple really. Dave might fill in some more details here but that's up to him.

To clarify, we didn't ask for the 456 we'd already tested. We asked if the 'new' version was available. It wasn't. We're still looking forward to testing the new Whippet shorter travel bike when that's ready.

Steve"

At least when MBR did their Ti frame review last year, they fitted out the bikes with identical kit - MBUK's review only serves to prove that it's a shit magazine run by idiots

Notably Steve Worland - If I was Dave (from PlanetX) I'd put up the emails to prove that idiot wrong, seeing as he's slagging you off on Bikeradar

Just read the other threads, I'd be suing Worland for Defamation and Slander - disgusting behaviour

Lanesra... WTF are you talking about? Just playing devil's advocate but where do you see Worland slagging Dave off? I don't see it at all, I see confusion between 2 people basically.

Fitting out the frames with the same kit would be idiotic tbh, they're different bikes with different design briefs so there's no one fit that won't disadvantage some. Brant agrees incidentally, going by his posts over on Bikeradar 😉

("Equipment designed for some light twitchy steep angled frame would be awful on something designed for more hardcore trail riding.")

[i]At least when MBR did their Ti frame review last year, they fitted out the bikes with identical kit - MBUK's review only serves to prove that it's a shit magazine run by idiots[/i]

Unfortunately the Ragely's designed for a particular stem size, fitting a longer one (as they did, as an experiment) proved to make it pretty awful to ride, so not much point in fitting identical kit...

Unfortunately the Ragely's designed for a particular stem size, fitting a longer one (as they did, as an experiment) proved to make it pretty awful to ride, so not much point in fitting identical kit...

Rubbish every single bike had different forks, brakes, wheels etc etc..

They could have run the test on all the same kit but, they never

zone well done for hitting nail on head

i do have concerns though that someone may have either tipped you off about something or you work in a very similar industry to me

Lanesra... WTF are you talking about? Just playing devil's advocate but where do you see Worland slagging Dave off? I don't see it at all, I see confusion between 2 people basically

I see Steve Worland calling Dave and On-One liars - As I said let On-One/PlanetX put up the the emails and Worland put up his - I'm betting that Worland/MBUK will be outed as liars

Rubbish. Lets see some links to what you claim. Without quoting out of context of course. When you're ready...

The confusion with supplying a ti 456 to the test is all squared off , we would have not allowed a prototype van nicholas 456 to go into a head to head test as it was exactly that a prototype .Of course if asked wed have gladly supplied the lynskey 456 , and a new one at that, though bizarely it actually transpires that the ti 456 bike was ridden as part of the test ,as the benchmark of the ultimate ti hardtail , but because it had been reviewed previously (not sure ifs ever been in MBUK though?) it couldnt go into the test again , which is of course fair enough .

So the ti 456 was actually ridden as a benchmark / control in the test , it retains its 10/10 and would therefore clearly have won the test outright , which is of course jolly nice to know .

"Seeing as the Ti456 is/was still unchanged and in my opinion the scores and it's position in the Ti hierachy is unaltered (we actually rode one as a control throughout the four way test) though we didn't re include it. "

Lanesra, you just in from the pub?

Why didn't MBUK say that all the bikes where tested "against the 10/10" (which you're not sure has been tested by MBUK/WMB 🙄 )

Sorry the whole thing stinks - Esp after Worlands posts on Bikeradar - you don't confuse emails as to what bike was wanted etc..

All's you have done is prove that Bike mag reviews aren't worth a toss (as others have said before on this thread)

Why is titanium so controversial?

Is that one of the "special" properties people say it has?

ZONE - I have an unbranded Ti frame that is 18 years old and still out rides anything ridden since... and others riders that agree.

I think that I may have ridden this bike....

Seem to remember being called a cheat quite often when I rode it - never been on a bike with such a blend of comfort and effortless pace - the acceleration was startling.

But then some chap wanted it back !! The 19 ti trail that I bought as a replacement is good but just isn't in the same league - probably for all the reasons you mention Zone.

LOL.... @ twosugars

ay up mr.... I'm still on the hunt for a spare for you 😀

Then it's up to you and Mr Benson to get into a bidding war.

I found a couple...one in London... the other Shropshire. neither want to let go ...no matter how much I ask. I'll keep you posted!

Zone