[Closed] Manual madness

Make one of these.

That's what I intend to do. I can manual through rollers but never been able to sustain it on the flat yet.

Alternatively, do not make one of those.Use the time instead to practice.

Low manuals, high manuals, up hills, downhills,  everywhere. wheelies can help with brake feathering/ tipping point. Stick at it you'll get it.

That manual machine is a waste of time and timber. The key to the manual is keeping your legs bent,  and moving the back wheel forwards and backwards beneath you around the balance point. You can't do that on this machine. The video does not show anyone learning to manual using the machine.

Something I've never stuck at but you can strap a pillow to your butt and lean against a wall to support you while you find the balance point without actually moving. Supposedly gives you an idea of how far you can actually go.

Don't make a manual machine.

it's nothing like manualling for real and can actually teach you bad habits. Use your carpentry/B&Q shopping time to practice outdoors. keep at it. you'll get there eventually.

Don't bother with the "L" shape technique all mtb skills tutors seem to teach. once you can repeatedly get to the balance point just go straight back/down diagonally and kick the rear wheel forwards. Most folk don't even realise how the kick from the hips is used. This part of manualling actually can't be used properly on a manual machine.
Even more controvercially. don't drag your rear brake. Brakeless manuals are more pure and look better.

I can't manual for toffee but fix the back wheel (like in that machine or a turbo trainer) and lifting the front end and even balancing for a while is dead easy. Not sure exactly what the difference is but I can say from experience that being able to do it on a machine like that was no help at all.

theOO describes what I'm talking about (probably better than I did).

Ps. don't listen to any advice from anyone who can't actually manual themselves. It's blatantly obvious in forums who can and can't from the garbage those who can't type.

@jimmy, you could do that I guess, but why not find the tipping point by practicing manuals.

Intentionally go too far over the tipping point, on a grassy field, really slowly. No harm done.

Practice, I learned most things by spending hundreds(?) of hours as a kid just riding a bike, this obviously takes a bit longer as an adult due to lack of free time to ride a bike 5 hours a day on weekdays.

Coaching might skip some of the trial and error so you are at least trying/practicing the right technique, eg  stop just pulling up on the bars and start pushing the rear wheel forward

it's not even a time thing bigyan. Adults just don't practice. look at any trail centre group ride.

Faffing in the car park 45mins
talking shit about their kit 15mins.
actual riding time 2hrs15 (if you're lucky)
Stopping to eat and drink 30mins
Strava?instagram/FB 15 mins
Getting changed and washing the bikes 45mins
Eating and drinking coffee in the cafe 45mins
Practicing anything ZERO

I don't get it. I'm not even sure half of the adults who ride mtb even enjoy the riding part all that much.

You can practice manuals anywhere and at any time. even in the dark. infact as nailing it involves a build up of muscle memory doing it with limited visual input (in the dark) actually helps.

I’ve been practicing twice a day on the canal towpath (taking the long way to work). Thanks for all the advice, I’ll keep at it 👍🏼

If I may hijack a bit... all of the advice seems to be about finding the balancing point and practicing balance. But I have never even got my bike close to balancing, I can pop the front wheel enough to clear a kerb, or hold it up for a small drop on a trail, but that's about it.

I feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with my body position when I'm trying this, but whatever it is I'm not picking it up from youtube videos. I do practice and I've seen improvement in my riding in other areas, but not getting anywhere with this. Any suggestions?

You're simply not committing enough.

actively practice looping right over. to get it right safely, stand one foot on the ground and holding the bars push the bike forwards with the other foot on the pedal until the bike is stood upright on the back  wheel. (you stay still, you're pushing the bike's rear wheel  forwards while allowing it to rotate around the bars (this is how stopping the front dropping while manualling actually works). if you're struggling to imagine what I mean. hold the back brake while straddling the rear wheel and holding both grips. now simply walk backwards. That;s what you're aiming to do.
Get that action right and then progress to doing the same whilst standing on both pedals rolling along at walking speed. Now simply step off the back as it goes past the balance point. You may want to try this on a soft surface until your timing is right.

As ever, Ice Cube has all the advice you will ever need:

Happy to be shot down about that manual machine being a waste of time, after all I've not gotten around to making one yet but, surely it would easily help you get used to the feeling of that general position?

Obviously it's not the same as actually manualling but it looks to me(and I've not tried one yet) that it might help you to get nearer to that point where you're comfortable in that sort of position? I think that having the bike as high as that is hard to get your head around initially so I can only imagine it might help.

Agree about the adults not practising like kids thing though. That's basically it. Used to spend hours doing all sorts of circus shit....😀

Presume you've seen this one Op?

That first 49m run was hilarious!

surely it would easily help you get used to the feeling of that general position

You could be right. I've been on a couple of skills courses where the instructor holds you in the position so you can get a feel for it, so it could be useful in that regard. The problem I found with it was that the action required to lift the front wheel in the first place was very different. If you fix the rear wheel you can just pull back and the front will lift (even if you don't do much with your legs). If you just pull back out on the trail all you do is decelerate the bike. You need that push forwards with the legs to at least resist that backwards force.

But, as I've said, I can't manual for tofee and geex is probably right. It would be better to listen to those that can 🙂

Does learning to wheelie first make more sense? I definitely find it easier to reach the balance point in a wheelie though still can't keep it there. Don't practice enough though.

Practice, I learned most things by spending hundreds(?) of hours as a kid just riding a bike, this obviously takes a bit longer as an adult due to lack of free time to ride a bike 5 hours a day on weekdays.

This is the thing. When you see a kid manualling down the street on his BMX, you don't see the countless hours he has put in every night to learn that.

Some have more talent and/or less fear and pick it up really quickly, but it's not something that happens overnight.

And as an adult (I'm assuming you're an adult...) we have a reduced ability to learn new skills, which means it's going to take even longer.

So I suggest just getting out and doing it. Give yourself 30 mins or an hour, a few times a week. After 6 months you might have them dialled 🙂

theOO describes what I’m talking about (probably better than I did).

Ps. don’t listen to any advice from anyone who can’t actually manual themselves. It’s blatantly obvious in forums who can and can’t from the garbage those who can’t type.

There is more to it than that.  To learn something you need to know how to learn to do it.  not how to do it, how to learn to do it.  So listening to someone who can do it telling you how they do it is not exactly what you want.  Ideally you want to listen to someone who

- can do it

- but didn't find it came naturally (you wouldn't be bothering with this if you were a natural)

- and can remember what they did when they learned

- and has the communication skills to explain it

OP you're not alone on this and I'm glad I'm not alone either!

41 here, have been practising to hold a manual since September, trying to get 30min sessions 3-4 days a week when weather allows.

Did the manual machine with an old turbo trainer, it was absolutely useless, I could hold the manual on it for hours, but it didn't transfer to real life at all.

Other than practice there are a few things that might help: try to master the wheelie first (I'm going to go this way now as I was about to give up).

Concentrate on your feet, don't try to lift the wheel with your arms (I unintentionally ALWAYS pull with arms and go sideways).

I found that a steep-ish road makes it easier to pop the wheel up and gives you more inertia compared to trying it on flat ground.

Film yourself you will probably spot quite easily what you're doing wrong (or post it here for feedback).

Dont give up...there should be some kind of social network where people like us could encourage each other, gather feedback and track progress.

It might be stupid but knowing I'm not the only one struggling with manuals makes me not want to give up.

Geex - you sound like you know what's what. I have no trouble getting the frnt wheel up, and I'm not bad at feathering the rear brake when I need to, but my issue is I always veer off to the left or right. I'm tried my damndest to keep myself centred, but I'm still doing it. Any tips?

kelron+1

Forget all the "keeping the balance point" stuff - I'm not even getting to the balance point yet.

So who can provide some advice on how to get the front wheel up for a manual.

Its clearly down to body movement and from watching other people it shouldn't require a massive effort, but still seems like a dark art.

I get the feeling that pumping the bars down and forward, rather than just down, is helping, but can't seem to get the leg/hip movement right.

Any tips appreciated.

Efforts that you are not used to making feel more massive, once you do them regularly they feel less so.

@anono - think about where your centre of gravity is in relation to the bike. Normally it's somewhere between the bottom bracket and the rear axle depending on whether you are sat down or stood up on the pedals. With your weight here it's impossible to lift the front end of the bike up for any length of time.

As you note, it's down to body movement, you have to get your CoG over the rear axle (or thereabouts) which basically makes the front half of the bike unweighted so you can "lift" it but too far back and you'll loop out. From this it follows that a shorter length bike helps: your arms are a fixed length so if at full stretch you can't get your weight back then you aren't going to be very successful in manualling.

I think the 'L' movement talked about above is more about getting the angle of the arms lower so you are less inclined to pull on the bars in an attempt to lift them. It also means that when you kick/push with the legs the resulting force is forward rather than down.

Thanks whitestone - all makes sense....but

I can hang off the back of the bike as far as its possible to go, and whilst the front end feels lighter, the wheel doesn't lift.

I guess to get that lift requires a combined upper and lower body movement, and that timing of the arm/leg pushes is fairly critical.

All I want is for someone to describe that movement in a way that I can replicate and become a manual master in half an hour.....is that really asking too much?!

Unless the bike is really short "hanging off the back" isn't getting your weight above/behind the rear axle, it's just off the back of the saddle. Bending your legs then pushing backwards gets you past the tipping point as it were, a bit like overcoming the "stiction" in a fork's travel. You also need your cranks at close to right angles to the intended direction of your push so that both legs are working equally, if the cranks are level to the ground then you are limiting yourself in how far back you can push your weight.

After that it's timing! And practice.

Cranks at right angles - now you could be onto something there....

If that doesn't work, I'm going to give up and use the excuse that my legs are too short.

Thanks all. I’ll keep trying on my commute and get in some practice whenever possible. Have a small pump track around the corner too, so will try that when I get too frustrated.

Finbar. Look. Further ahead. Go slightly faster.

Most folk are way stronger on one side of their body than the other  You steer manuals mostly through your hips. So try to calibrate the push equally

Thanks - will give it a go!

I built a manual machine. One thing I learned quickly is that you need to take the chain off. Once you've done this, I think the physics front to back is quite similar to real riding. To get to the balance point you need to move your hips around just like I see on the youtube vids. Sure you are supported from side to side, but it definitely teaches you something useful about finding that sweet spot. I'm far from manually down the road Infront of the peaslake bus stop, but I've learned some valuable skills and I've got much better control of the front end of my bike.

"it definitely teaches you something useful about finding that sweet spot".

Sorry but it honestly doesn't mate. I have access to a stand similar to a turbo trainer with no resistance unit and because I was dubious of the point of a manual machine I tried a few bikes on it (with and without chains). None were anything like manualling on a moving bike at all.

Do yourself a favour. Ditch the stupid manual machine idea and go outside and actually practice. it's not that scary. honest. infact it's fun. Persevere. You'll eventually get it.

When I ride BMX the one thing I always was told to do was give yourself an aim. Try to find a small bit of pavement or different colour tarmac or white line you want to manual the length of. Start at 5 or 10 metres and go up from there. Gives you something to aim for.

the machine works for some to get an idea of how far back you have to be over the rear axle, which is what i think holds most folk back. (that and looping out on their back)

I learned in a grassy park that conveniently had a shallow gradient on it, and just practiced. As an aside, when I watched some videos I realised that I "have bad habits" I pull up on the bars a bit as a move back, TBH who cares? Not me

I am not a manual master, but I've been taught what to do, and on rare occasions, it all comes together and works, so my 2p in case it helps:

"I can hang off the back of the bike as far as its possible to go, and whilst the front end feels lighter, the wheel doesn’t lift."

It's a dynamic thing, not a static balance - you whiz the bike forwards with your legs and the front rears up on its own.

"I guess to get that lift requires a combined upper and lower body movement, and that timing of the arm/leg pushes is fairly critical."

Don't do anything with your arms - nothing - just keep them straight. You need to kick down REALLY hard with both feet and drop your heels. Even just practising that while coasting along should see the front wheel coming off the ground. Combine it with a change in body position and the front comes way up.

Now shoot me down...

I cant manual ( for more than a metre anyway) , but presumably its easier to learn on a hardtail than a full suss? Or is there not much difference?

Thanks tillyd - I'll give that try.

Go find a quiet carpark and keep practising, stop reading this.

My full sus is easier than  my hardtail for some unknown reason

it's just different Juliens. on a full sus you have the suspension compression to overcome with the initial push through your legs being the main difference

If you're used to always manualling a full sus you might actually find a hardtail more difficult.

ie. a  lot of mtbers think BMXs are easier to manual and jump. they're not. They're actually much more difficult to hold a manual on and much more twitchy to jump as smaller body movements have more effect with the shorter wheelbase.

Can someone post a vid of themselves doing this so we know who's legit?

I would but no idea how obv

I don't care whether you think I'm legit. Nevermind know how to video myself

Try this?  https://www.ryanleech.com/manual-master-class/

I'm working my way through it.

Unless you are an orangutan and ride an BMX, then your bikes effective top tube reach is going to be longer than your arms! (even more so these days with the long endurooooooo bikes)  Hence, whilst still holding onto the bars, you CANNOT just move your body far enough backwards to get to the neutral balance point, where your CofG is precisely above the centre of the rear wheel.

The drop and back "L-shape" technique is taught to beginners because it separates the unweighting of the bike,  from the push-forwards / stand-the-bike-up bit.

Take a look at this pic of a flat land manual:

Because your hands and arms, feet and lower legs are forwards (unless you want to let go of the bars and slip off the pedals, which you don't!) then you need your hips some distance behind the rear wheel centre to get your "average" CofG precisely above the rear wheel centre. So unless you look like our aforementioned orangutan, the only way you are going to do that is to tilt the bike backwards around that rear wheel.  Look at the angle of the top tube in that pic, we are talking about really quite a steep angle, and that feels odd at first (very odd to most people)

The "L" technique is not required or needed by riders who can manual or are 'natural riders', as they will have learnt how to move to achieve the correct position of their body above the angled bike, but for typical beginners i think it's a very valid technique to help you learn how to get you and your bike into the correct position!  The "drop your body" part unweights the bike on it's suspension, bringing the BB upwards (modern bikes have low BB's!) and the back bit makes you thrust the bike forwards with your legs even if you think you're actually pushing yourself backwards! (in reality, the physics of momentum mean the absolute movement is ratiometrically divided by the ratio of your body mass to the bikes mass!).

I'd suggest that most people when learning (myself included) are most afraid of the loop out and off the back**, and fail to get the bike angled enough, which means they cannot ever move far enough backwards, which means they can never hold the manual! (and it also means a huge exaggerated motion is required to try, often leading to imbalance as the tipping point is reached, causing instability and generally resulting in either looping out or dropping the front) The Pros make entering a manual look smooth and minimal because they have perfected the entry!

Once you can regularly get the front up and get to, or slightly exceed the balance point, then ime, the next barrier is learning to not use your arms to try to maintain that balance.  It's all in the legs, but if the front comes up and back too far, then your brain is wired to try to pull on the arms to pull your body forwards. which, oh dear, just makes things worse (because you are heavier than your bike, so you just move the bike further upwards/backwards rather than move yourself forwards) Here, learning to drive your legs back and forth to move your hips in the right place is crucial.  For me, this bit took the longest to learn, the instinct to pull on the bars was huge.  What helped was to try to think about my hips as the point i wanted to control, thinking "hips forwards" and "hips backwards" which helped me attempt to get my instinctive muscle memory to use my legs and not arms.

** as humans, with our arms only really capable of swivelling forwards at our shoulders rather than backwards, we are much more balance sensitive to falling backwards, because we instinctively know we have no way to arrest a backwards fall. Try it, stand up, see how far you can lean forwards before you feel you are at risk, now try leaning backwards, for most people the angle is very different!)

You could have practiced for 10 mins instead of reading that.

Joking!

Just buy a Carrera. All the little shits round here seem to be permanently on the back wheel on theirs.

TBF I'm with the little shits on this one. Having been one myself. Maybe still am.

no idea if that link will work, but here’s me doing a manual with step by step instructions.

Practiced again this morning and managed to get the front end up slightly before almost riding straight in to the canal. Think I’ll find a nice field or quiet road to practice on.

Crocodiles in the canal are what's needed. Should make you slightly more committed to looking ahead and keeping the bike straight. 😉

I would like to be able to do a manual but fear of crashing onto my back is stopping me from even practicing. I did a skills course recently, and the instructor lifted the front of my bike (while I stood on my pedals and moved my weight back) to give me a bit of confidence that the front has to go up a heck of a long way before you tip over backwards. I feel like if I could just man up and do it once, I’d be more confident at practicing it over and over. I might have a go on grass, as suggested above.

vickypea, I’m probably wrong but aren’t you in Macc? If so, we could pick a nice field and start the MMC (Macclesfield Manual Club) 👍🏼😀

funkmasterp-

I’m in the Macclesfield area, maybe we can meet and practice being crap at manuals together 😀

Ha ha, we made our posts suggesting the same thing at the same time!

mr Pea gets frustrated with me that I can’t do a manual, and then I shout that I understand in theory what to do, it’s being chicken that holds me back!

Can he not teach us both, I can pay him with booze or teach him how to fall off his bike with style?

I said this earlier in the tread. But I'll say it again.

Actively practice going past the balance point and coming off the back.
*By all means do this on grass. But you're not going to be landing on your back! Instil this thought in your mind before even attempting what I'm about to say:
Now. Here's what you're going to do. DO. not attempt! OK?
Still with me here?
You're going to loop the bike right over and step off the back. - to do this.
Pre-load he fork and as it reboundsthrow your weight back over the rear wheel while simultaneously pushing the cranks (and rear wheel) forwards with your hips just as you are required to to initiate all manuals.
But...
As you move your weight back over the rear push the rear wheel far further forwards with a far stronger push from your hips than you need to to reach the balance point. As the bike is reaching the balance point remove a foot (which foot i up to you - I can ride Ambi/switch so can do either no bother) and simply step off the back. I know I make this sound simple and you may find the thought of this a little scary but once you've done it you'll  realise just how simple it actually is.
I've taught tons and tons of people to do this and so long as they are genuinely ready to commit ALL have managed it.
It's far easier to teach in person than to type.

Your (and most STW skills advice threads I read) main problem is worrying/overthinking and getting all anxious instead of *riding your bikes more and making small gains.

*Riding =/= off-road miles. i mean timeon the bike (anywhere, just messing around)

I'll happily take all the beer on offer BTW. I'm already incredibly stylish at coming off a bike.

so long as they are genuinely ready to commit

That's the tricky bit though 🙂 I've tried this a few times, but once I reach that point where it lifts up properly my brain just freezes and I end up on my arse, which hurts. Then I find it hard to commit again. I know I should be able to just step off. It sounds simple, but I guess that's just one of the downsides of being a born coward.

Coming off doesn’t bother me (I do it often enough that it’s practically just part of the ride) it’s more understanding the mechanics of getting to that balance point to begin with. At the moment I’m just using brute force to raise the front end, which I know is wrong.

I’m going to keep practicing and take on board all the help from this thread. Once my head understands the process I should hopefully be able to crack it. Geex, your explanation makes sense to me, so I’m going to roll with that.

Thanks again everyone.

Realising now some of you can't actually wheelie. Amend my above advice and practicing stepping off the back from a wheelie before a manual. You should get it quicker. and when you start learning manuals you shouldn't have that fear.

Brute force is massively wrong mate. Learn to wheelie first. As an example: Getting the front wheel up to balance point if you're descent at wheelies isn't difficult using only one finger to hold each grip.

Funkmasterp, perhaps we should get geex to come to Macc and teach us 😀

Fine by me. Are the Macc Lads still going? and how old is Julie now? 😉

One thing that perhaps should be said is that the continuous flatland manual, whilst looking pretty boss in the average trail centre car park, is really not [i]that[/i] useful a skill in the real world!

Far better to learn how to do a decent small american, ie front wheel first, bunny hop IMO.  An 8 to 12" hop you can pull out of your bag-of-tricks at short notice on the trail is useful in lots of situations, from keeping your feet dry across a puddle to effortlessly flying up and over those logs the local trail sabbo has unexpectedly pulled across your fav run!

(it also helps with jumping ultimately, and gives confidence in lifting the front of the bike, to avoid plonking the front wheel into holes, ruts or whatever)

So if you're struggling with the manual, and can't bunny hop, i'd suggest trying to learn that one first 😉

You honestly thought that was worth saying in a thread where people are asking specifically how to perform and hold manuals?

See my second post in this thread 😉

geex- apparently the Macc Lads have recently reformed. The Virginmarys are a really good Macclesfield band.

Thanks for the update, and recommendation Vicky

😀

Yes Geex, i think it's a more than valid thing to say on a "discussion forum" where, you know, we discuss stuff!  😉

So if you’re struggling with the manual, and can’t bunny hop, i’d suggest trying to learn that one first

Well true bunny hopping is probably more useful, but if you're still using your arms to get the front wheel up you're limited to how high you can bunny hop. I can do 40cm after a couple of attempts, but 45cm, or about 2/3 diameter of my front wheel, seems ridiculously difficult (though fatigue from too many attempts doesn't help either).

I usually cycle 6 days a week on various MTBs so I have no excuse for not learning to manual, other than not being assed. Perhaps if it will help with bunny hopping then that's a good motivation as bunny hopping onto things will make my local riding a lot more fun.

Sirromj

Learning how to Manual won't help you with bunnyhopping. unless you are wanting to hop from a manual or into a manual. Manualling will help with erm... Manualling. (what you do with your manuals, ie' pumping rollers, squashing lips etc. is another matter)
You can already bunnyhop. You just need to learn how to get higher. And BTW you most certainly do need to use your arms to bunny hop over the height of an mtb wheel. Obviously you still have to use weight shift to initiate raising the front wheel but to get it high enough to clear the height of a 26/27.5 wheel you need raise your front wheel higher which means picking up the bars and pulling your stem towards your chest before pushing them forwards as you lift the rear wheel. Not doing this high enough might be why you're struggling to get higher.

Can we discuss pies now?  If you can't manual a nice pie will definitely make you feel better. and might even be more useful. Especially in the real world. Wherever that is.

manualing and bunnyhopping are heavily linked though. The manual front wheel lift is used in both . you are suspending it off the ground (not lifting it).

A bunny hop is more temporary suspension, a manual is a sustained suspension. so i do think they help each other actually

They really don't.

All fundamental mountainbike skills are linked in one way or another. Riding your bike in a flamboyant manner (hopping/jumping/pumping/manualling/tweaking/styling etc.) keeps your skills sharp. But that's how I always ride. Doing bunnyhops doesn't really help my manualling skills at all. but manualling and being able to hop from a manual increases my skill set. (god I hate that term)

Bunnyhopping anything reasonably high (12" is not high) requires massive pre-loading. Wheras initiating and holding a manual requires much more subtle inputs.

You can learn to bunnyhop and manual at the same time. Of course you can but if someone is asking you to teach them how to manual coming steaming in and suggesting they learn to bunnyhop instead makes no sense. Repetition is key in learning new skills. ie. finding the balance point and learning how to hold it when manualling. Eventually this repetition will become muscle memory. The person who has asked you how to manual is obviously motivated to want to learn manuals. Probably because it does look cool. Use that motivation and let them learn manuals instead of bombarding their brain and body with bunnyhop technique repetition too.

IMO Manualling is one of the most fun things you can do on a bike. Bunnyhops way less so.

Heeey maybe I just like looking cool 😉

sorry who is doing the bombarding? you are answering loads of imaginary stuff that i didnt write.  all I have said really is practice.     it is a discussion forum and the discussion had turned to how the two skills of manualing and bunnyhopping are are linked.

Although for some reason it seems that it often turns back to a certain flamboyant cool guy.

Practiced a bit this morning, the suggestion to keep a foot planted on the ground really helped me get a feel for what I should be doing. I think before I was trying to throw my weight back more than push the bike forwards.

I haven't managed to fall on my arse yet but I've managed to get the front wheel higher and with less effort than I ever managed before, so it feels like I'm making some progress.

Thanks for the advice geex and others.

Heeey...

Glad it's working out for you Kelron

I too am trying to learn (only been riding just over a year) and am also in mids 40s - old dog new tricks eh!

I have found the L shape advice to really not be that useful and not at all illustrative of the 'thrust' to initiate rotation that seems to bring my front wheel up.

This is actually the best illustration I've seen of someone who has this pat, and it's not even a vid about manualling;

At 2:34ish

My advice is don't try them in a garage with a brakeless BMX.

I have luckily been riding fixed gear for years now so that will never happen again - bunny hopping on a fixed gear is a good challenge though although it is almost cheating for wheelies.

I'm liking this thread, has inspired me to go to the big grassy area in my estate and make a tit of myself

Yeah. Tonight's commute home will be all about stepping off the back, though I do need to get home at some point.