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Unless you are an orangutan and ride an BMX, then your bikes effective top tube reach is going to be longer than your arms! (even more so these days with the long endurooooooo bikes) Hence, whilst still holding onto the bars, you CANNOT just move your body far enough backwards to get to the neutral balance point, where your CofG is precisely above the centre of the rear wheel.
The drop and back "L-shape" technique is taught to beginners because it separates the unweighting of the bike, from the push-forwards / stand-the-bike-up bit.
Take a look at this pic of a flat land manual:
Because your hands and arms, feet and lower legs are forwards (unless you want to let go of the bars and slip off the pedals, which you don't!) then you need your hips some distance behind the rear wheel centre to get your "average" CofG precisely above the rear wheel centre. So unless you look like our aforementioned orangutan, the only way you are going to do that is to tilt the bike backwards around that rear wheel. Look at the angle of the top tube in that pic, we are talking about really quite a steep angle, and that feels odd at first (very odd to most people)
The "L" technique is not required or needed by riders who can manual or are 'natural riders', as they will have learnt how to move to achieve the correct position of their body above the angled bike, but for typical beginners i think it's a very valid technique to help you learn how to get you and your bike into the correct position! The "drop your body" part unweights the bike on it's suspension, bringing the BB upwards (modern bikes have low BB's!) and the back bit makes you thrust the bike forwards with your legs even if you think you're actually pushing yourself backwards! (in reality, the physics of momentum mean the absolute movement is ratiometrically divided by the ratio of your body mass to the bikes mass!).
I'd suggest that most people when learning (myself included) are most afraid of the loop out and off the back**, and fail to get the bike angled enough, which means they cannot ever move far enough backwards, which means they can never hold the manual! (and it also means a huge exaggerated motion is required to try, often leading to imbalance as the tipping point is reached, causing instability and generally resulting in either looping out or dropping the front) The Pros make entering a manual look smooth and minimal because they have perfected the entry!
Once you can regularly get the front up and get to, or slightly exceed the balance point, then ime, the next barrier is learning to not use your arms to try to maintain that balance. It's all in the legs, but if the front comes up and back too far, then your brain is wired to try to pull on the arms to pull your body forwards. which, oh dear, just makes things worse (because you are heavier than your bike, so you just move the bike further upwards/backwards rather than move yourself forwards) Here, learning to drive your legs back and forth to move your hips in the right place is crucial. For me, this bit took the longest to learn, the instinct to pull on the bars was huge. What helped was to try to think about my hips as the point i wanted to control, thinking "hips forwards" and "hips backwards" which helped me attempt to get my instinctive muscle memory to use my legs and not arms.
** as humans, with our arms only really capable of swivelling forwards at our shoulders rather than backwards, we are much more balance sensitive to falling backwards, because we instinctively know we have no way to arrest a backwards fall. Try it, stand up, see how far you can lean forwards before you feel you are at risk, now try leaning backwards, for most people the angle is very different!)
You could have practiced for 10 mins instead of reading that.
Joking!
Just buy a Carrera. All the little shits round here seem to be permanently on the back wheel on theirs.
TBF I'm with the little shits on this one. Having been one myself. Maybe still am.
no idea if that link will work, but here’s me doing a manual with step by step instructions.
Practiced again this morning and managed to get the front end up slightly before almost riding straight in to the canal. Think I’ll find a nice field or quiet road to practice on.
I would like to be able to do a manual but fear of crashing onto my back is stopping me from even practicing. I did a skills course recently, and the instructor lifted the front of my bike (while I stood on my pedals and moved my weight back) to give me a bit of confidence that the front has to go up a heck of a long way before you tip over backwards. I feel like if I could just man up and do it once, I’d be more confident at practicing it over and over. I might have a go on grass, as suggested above.
vickypea, I’m probably wrong but aren’t you in Macc? If so, we could pick a nice field and start the MMC (Macclesfield Manual Club) 👍🏼😀
funkmasterp-
I’m in the Macclesfield area, maybe we can meet and practice being crap at manuals together 😀
Ha ha, we made our posts suggesting the same thing at the same time!
mr Pea gets frustrated with me that I can’t do a manual, and then I shout that I understand in theory what to do, it’s being chicken that holds me back!
Can he not teach us both, I can pay him with booze or teach him how to fall off his bike with style?
I said this earlier in the tread. But I'll say it again.
Actively practice going past the balance point and coming off the back.
*By all means do this on grass. But you're not going to be landing on your back! Instil this thought in your mind before even attempting what I'm about to say:
Now. Here's what you're going to do. DO. not attempt! OK?
Still with me here?
You're going to loop the bike right over and step off the back. - to do this.
Pre-load he fork and as it reboundsthrow your weight back over the rear wheel while simultaneously pushing the cranks (and rear wheel) forwards with your hips just as you are required to to initiate all manuals.
But...
As you move your weight back over the rear push the rear wheel far further forwards with a far stronger push from your hips than you need to to reach the balance point. As the bike is reaching the balance point remove a foot (which foot i up to you - I can ride Ambi/switch so can do either no bother) and simply step off the back. I know I make this sound simple and you may find the thought of this a little scary but once you've done it you'll realise just how simple it actually is.
I've taught tons and tons of people to do this and so long as they are genuinely ready to commit ALL have managed it.
It's far easier to teach in person than to type.
Your (and most STW skills advice threads I read) main problem is worrying/overthinking and getting all anxious instead of *riding your bikes more and making small gains.
*Riding =/= off-road miles. i mean timeon the bike (anywhere, just messing around)
I'll happily take all the beer on offer BTW. I'm already incredibly stylish at coming off a bike.
so long as they are genuinely ready to commit
That's the tricky bit though 🙂 I've tried this a few times, but once I reach that point where it lifts up properly my brain just freezes and I end up on my arse, which hurts. Then I find it hard to commit again. I know I should be able to just step off. It sounds simple, but I guess that's just one of the downsides of being a born coward.
Coming off doesn’t bother me (I do it often enough that it’s practically just part of the ride) it’s more understanding the mechanics of getting to that balance point to begin with. At the moment I’m just using brute force to raise the front end, which I know is wrong.
I’m going to keep practicing and take on board all the help from this thread. Once my head understands the process I should hopefully be able to crack it. Geex, your explanation makes sense to me, so I’m going to roll with that.
Thanks again everyone.
Realising now some of you can't actually wheelie. Amend my above advice and practicing stepping off the back from a wheelie before a manual. You should get it quicker. and when you start learning manuals you shouldn't have that fear.
Brute force is massively wrong mate. Learn to wheelie first. As an example: Getting the front wheel up to balance point if you're descent at wheelies isn't difficult using only one finger to hold each grip.
Funkmasterp, perhaps we should get geex to come to Macc and teach us 😀
Fine by me. Are the Macc Lads still going? and how old is Julie now? 😉
One thing that perhaps should be said is that the continuous flatland manual, whilst looking pretty boss in the average trail centre car park, is really not [i]that[/i] useful a skill in the real world!
Far better to learn how to do a decent small american, ie front wheel first, bunny hop IMO. An 8 to 12" hop you can pull out of your bag-of-tricks at short notice on the trail is useful in lots of situations, from keeping your feet dry across a puddle to effortlessly flying up and over those logs the local trail sabbo has unexpectedly pulled across your fav run!
(it also helps with jumping ultimately, and gives confidence in lifting the front of the bike, to avoid plonking the front wheel into holes, ruts or whatever)
So if you're struggling with the manual, and can't bunny hop, i'd suggest trying to learn that one first 😉
You honestly thought that was worth saying in a thread where people are asking specifically how to perform and hold manuals?
See my second post in this thread 😉
geex- apparently the Macc Lads have recently reformed. The Virginmarys are a really good Macclesfield band.
Thanks for the update, and recommendation Vicky
😀
Yes Geex, i think it's a more than valid thing to say on a "discussion forum" where, you know, we discuss stuff! 😉
So if you’re struggling with the manual, and can’t bunny hop, i’d suggest trying to learn that one first
Well true bunny hopping is probably more useful, but if you're still using your arms to get the front wheel up you're limited to how high you can bunny hop. I can do 40cm after a couple of attempts, but 45cm, or about 2/3 diameter of my front wheel, seems ridiculously difficult (though fatigue from too many attempts doesn't help either).
I usually cycle 6 days a week on various MTBs so I have no excuse for not learning to manual, other than not being assed. Perhaps if it will help with bunny hopping then that's a good motivation as bunny hopping onto things will make my local riding a lot more fun.
Sirromj
Learning how to Manual won't help you with bunnyhopping. unless you are wanting to hop from a manual or into a manual. Manualling will help with erm... Manualling. (what you do with your manuals, ie' pumping rollers, squashing lips etc. is another matter)
You can already bunnyhop. You just need to learn how to get higher. And BTW you most certainly do need to use your arms to bunny hop over the height of an mtb wheel. Obviously you still have to use weight shift to initiate raising the front wheel but to get it high enough to clear the height of a 26/27.5 wheel you need raise your front wheel higher which means picking up the bars and pulling your stem towards your chest before pushing them forwards as you lift the rear wheel. Not doing this high enough might be why you're struggling to get higher.
Can we discuss pies now? If you can't manual a nice pie will definitely make you feel better. and might even be more useful. Especially in the real world. Wherever that is.
manualing and bunnyhopping are heavily linked though. The manual front wheel lift is used in both . you are suspending it off the ground (not lifting it).
A bunny hop is more temporary suspension, a manual is a sustained suspension. so i do think they help each other actually
They really don't.
All fundamental mountainbike skills are linked in one way or another. Riding your bike in a flamboyant manner (hopping/jumping/pumping/manualling/tweaking/styling etc.) keeps your skills sharp. But that's how I always ride. Doing bunnyhops doesn't really help my manualling skills at all. but manualling and being able to hop from a manual increases my skill set. (god I hate that term)
Bunnyhopping anything reasonably high (12" is not high) requires massive pre-loading. Wheras initiating and holding a manual requires much more subtle inputs.
You can learn to bunnyhop and manual at the same time. Of course you can but if someone is asking you to teach them how to manual coming steaming in and suggesting they learn to bunnyhop instead makes no sense. Repetition is key in learning new skills. ie. finding the balance point and learning how to hold it when manualling. Eventually this repetition will become muscle memory. The person who has asked you how to manual is obviously motivated to want to learn manuals. Probably because it does look cool. Use that motivation and let them learn manuals instead of bombarding their brain and body with bunnyhop technique repetition too.
IMO Manualling is one of the most fun things you can do on a bike. Bunnyhops way less so.
Heeey maybe I just like looking cool 😉
sorry who is doing the bombarding? you are answering loads of imaginary stuff that i didnt write. all I have said really is practice. it is a discussion forum and the discussion had turned to how the two skills of manualing and bunnyhopping are are linked.
Although for some reason it seems that it often turns back to a certain flamboyant cool guy.
Practiced a bit this morning, the suggestion to keep a foot planted on the ground really helped me get a feel for what I should be doing. I think before I was trying to throw my weight back more than push the bike forwards.
I haven't managed to fall on my arse yet but I've managed to get the front wheel higher and with less effort than I ever managed before, so it feels like I'm making some progress.
Thanks for the advice geex and others.
Heeey...
Glad it's working out for you Kelron
I too am trying to learn (only been riding just over a year) and am also in mids 40s - old dog new tricks eh!
I have found the L shape advice to really not be that useful and not at all illustrative of the 'thrust' to initiate rotation that seems to bring my front wheel up.
This is actually the best illustration I've seen of someone who has this pat, and it's not even a vid about manualling;
At 2:34ish
My advice is don't try them in a garage with a brakeless BMX.
I have luckily been riding fixed gear for years now so that will never happen again - bunny hopping on a fixed gear is a good challenge though although it is almost cheating for wheelies.
I'm liking this thread, has inspired me to go to the big grassy area in my estate and make a tit of myself
Yeah. Tonight's commute home will be all about stepping off the back, though I do need to get home at some point.
I brought up bunny hopping really as just a way of saying, for us, er, not so naturally talented riders, that just because you can't do a continuous flat land manual, it doesn't you should have a sad face! Being in my mid 40's and defifnately not being the Fonz on a bike, it's taken me lots of time to learn these skills, and i found that mixing things up helps, especially to keep my enthusiasm up! For most people, spending half an hour trying to manual and failing can be really pretty disheartening, so my suggestion, is of course, practice your manuals, but don't that be your be-all and end-all of tricks!
I think these threads on manualing can often be fraught with misunderstanding. To geex the manual may be all about maintaining balance on the rear wheel and he’s quite right. But often when people say they can’t manual what they mean is they are having trouble lifting the front high enough reliably. If you can’t do that then practicing an American bunny hop may be helpful.
I'm going to echo a few comments already said: thanks to the various contributors, this thread is a bit of encouragement, inspiration and bloody helpful!
I too practice on the commute when no one's looking. I've got to a pretty consistent level of wheelie but have hit a bit of a rut with drifting off sideways and constantly chasing a falling wheel so spin out. Whoever said to push down through your heels and push the rear wheel forwards rather than try and pull the front wheel up / back - bloody genious! I'm now looping out far too easily but chasing the falling front wheel has gone within a couple of tries...I also feel less drifty off to the side. I can see how this will all translate to the manual and straight away I was getting the front much higher with a lot less effort.
I know it's hard to describe / think about pushing through your heels when wheelying as you're also pedaling but it did help - heavy heels, light hands if you like (which is the whole attach position / pumping thing anyway...penny drops).
Definitely more practice required but a big step made tonight. Thanks all!
Barnsley / Rotherham area if anyone wants to form a South Yorkshire support group 😉
I have trouble getting it up - any tips?
roverpig - The short lived front wheel lift you describe is still a manual. the initaition of a bunnyhop is different as there's absolutley no intent to hold the wheel high. only to get it high enough before lifting the rear and pushing the bars forwards. So. No. Learning bunyhopwon't help you manual and may actually create a few bad habits
Max - I'm a fair bit older than you and currently re-calibrating/learning a few basic techniques as I recently started riding an Emtb and the extra weight combined with the torquey power assist (it varies by mode) means my muscle memory is slighlty off compared with a far lighter non motor assisted bike. It's never too late to learn new stuff. Granted some things come quicker to some than others.
Paul - I don't push through my heels at all when wheelying (it's all about steady pedal inputs to maintain balance/momentum and although I do when manualling. The push comes more from the hips and I don't think about my heels at all. If you get me? I'm not a fan of the term "heavy heels/light hands" it's misleading and creates a strange reliance on the technique (ie. used often when not needed, a bit like "outside pedal down while cornering"). But as you'll have found out when you have reached the balance point in a wheelie your bars are very light, almost weightless in your paws. That's when you know you're balanced. I think it probably freaks a lot of beginners out.
Chasing a dropping front wheel and having to accelerate too much is usually a sign of lack of commitment/fear of looping out. To get over it. find a slight upwards incline and practice in a low gear wheelying up the incline as slowly as possible.
Once you're really decent at Wheelies you should be able to brake or change gear and maintain the balance point and stay straight throughout.
I actually prefer to wheelie/manual brakeless and am the first to admit because of this my braking control during either isn't actually all that great. If I cared. I'd be practicing coaster wheelies down my hill every night. but as it is I can manual down it fine and I find that more fun anyway.
I practiced the stepping off the back thing on my commute home this evening - with no one looking. Didn't review any advised technique other than to step off the back and to avoid using my arms to pull up. Made me realise how strongly my leading foot is most definitely my leading foot. It was difficult to tell really what I was doing with my legs. Felt like I was pedalling with leading foot to raise the front wheel. Even if I started with left foot leading, still seemed like right foot doing the work. Back would fly up into the air after stepping off if I lead with right foot. With saddle lowered tried to keep just above seated position to start. Moving my weight all the way forwards and then explosively back. Difficult to tell exactly what I'm doing at this point.
Round back of quiet estate seemd a good place to practice wheelies (after raising saddle). Suddenly balance point came almost naturally. Managed to not chase the front wheel by pedalling for a whole 5 seconds.
Feeling motiviated.
The Fonz approves
*I do hope the irony behind me posting pics of a greasy middle aged man who spends far too much time hanging around trying to appear cool at a diner frequented by School kids is appreciated.
It's my dream to be accepted by a gang of youths who think 'wheelies are where its at'.
If you can’t do that then practicing an American bunny hop may be helpful.
I'd add "not driving somewhere to ride, and only riding when you've driven somewhere" to that as well. Time on the bike, being comfy moving around on it and not minding falling off it or having a laugh at yourself all help. It's ok to fall off and make an arse of yourself, just avoid the dog poo 😀