[Closed] Mandatory Full Face helmets in enduro for 2015

Interesting that the topic has moved onto the perceived difficulty of events...

Obviously, difficulty is different for each person, but, surely, whatever your level and whatever difficulty of course you deem hard, in a race, you'll be pushing yourself and in pushing yourself you have greater potential to get it wrong.

So, surely, a mandatory FF rule is the only sensible option.

And if you aren't pushing your boundaries in a race then, well, what's the point?

Race pace is very different to a post work pub ride with your mates pace.

I'll enjoy the descents and ride them quick enough but it's definitely not the 110% you give in a race - for one thing it just isn't worth the risks you'd take against the clock.

munrobiker - Member

If you're not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing? Riding downhill as fast as I can is the point of riding down a hill.

a) sometimes it's nice just to pootle
b) I keep a lid on it on shared paths
c) if you're not pushing hard on the CLIMBS on a normal ride, what exactly are you doing?
d) "I can't keep up my full tilt, full power, red hot, maximum pace all the time. I've got to take the odd breather, haven't I?"

^^ Exactly

munrobiker - Member

If you're not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing? Riding downhill as fast as I can is the point of riding down a hill.

Having fun.

jambalaya - Member
Yup agreed on climbs. Timed climbs are for XC. I didn't actually enter an enduro in 2013 as I didn't like the idea of being "out of time" on a climb, then @scott from QECP explained that's not how it worked but I'd already missed their 2014 event.

If you're not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing?

Going slower to go faster.

doing exactly the sorts of rides I normally do at Inners- some DH tracks, some of the trail centre. [b]But I crashed loads[/b]

This rule will only apply to certain events if you don't like it don't race or choose a event that doesn't have the rule, simple!

jamesfts - Member

Race pace is very different to a post work pub ride with your mates pace.

But then most people's post work pub ride is unlikely to take you down enduro-style routes. If I'm out doing that sort of riding, it's at race pace- I'll stop more often, mid-stage frinstance but when I'm moving it's the same. Or faster, because I've had a rest! Most of my personal bests on the race stages round here are on normal rides- just the balance of probability I suppose, I do more runs not in races.

snorkelsucker - Member

So, surely, a mandatory FF rule is the only sensible option.

And if you aren't pushing your boundaries in a race then, well, what's the point?

I push my descending boundaries in XC racing too, and generally on less capable machinery too. (or endurance racing rather- I've never done a proper XC race) So should I wear a fullface for that as well? Pushing your boundaries doesn't mean rolling the dice and crashing all the time- crashing is slow.

The irony of all this is, I'm a stormtrooper- I wore my kneepads soloing the glentress seven, I wear elbow pads for xc rides even though other people think that's weird, people take the piss sometimes. Exact same decision process as not wearing a fullface for enduro

Tell you something- the medical argument for mandatory kneepads is going to be far stronger than the argument for fullface. So where do you stop?

Kneepads are not mandatory? 😯

But then a post work pub ride is unlikely to take you down enduro-style routes. If I'm out doing that sort of riding, it's at race pace- I'll stop more often, mid-stage frinstance but when I'm moving it's the same. Or faster, because I've had a rest!

Fair point, maybe 'very different' is an overstatement but I'd still say I ride slightly differently when racing, whether thats taking greater risks/committing more or getting on the pedals harder and brakes later. Knowing you're on a closed trail with marshals and medics on hand can make a (subconscious?) difference too.

I'm not saying I don't ride flat out when not racing, just more often than not it's backed off just a touch.

I haven't really weighed in on FF debate so far... whilst I haven't felt the need to wear one so far I can understand the argument. Rules are rules, everyone will be in the same boat.

I agree when I'm not racing or going race pace I back off. I really feel the difference. When I'm doing my race pace psychologically I'm not just thinking about consequences only focused on going flat out and technique, with a mental thought about a clock ticking.

Kneepads are not mandatory?

No, but then everyone wears them anyway and to be fair, most knee injuries wouldn't be life threatening unlike a facial/head injury which [u]could[/u] be.

facial/head injury

I wonder if next years SES will be bringing out a similar FF rule for the full on Enduros while the Enduro Lite series would just need HF given they'd be less technical. That would appease the people saying its making it harder for beginners cos of costs.

I wonder if next years SES will be bringing out a similar FF rule for the full on Enduros while the Enduro Lite series would just need HF given they'd be less technical. That would appease the people saying its making it harder for beginners cos of costs.

I really hope they don't do that. I'm almost certainly not going to be racing in the 'lite' category and can not be arsed lugging a full face around all day. Whether the stages have climbs in them or not, you still have to get up the hill (1200m of climbing in last weekends SES, twice if you practised the whole thing) and doing that in a full face is hot and highly unenjoyable. Whatever Enduro becomes, it should still be enjoyable.

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.

Timed technical climb stages, along with downhill and single track stages would all be good.

+1.

Technical climbs - fitness
DH - fitness + skill
Singletrack- fitness

Hardly the most rounded setup

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.
Timed technical climb stages, along with downhill and single track stages would all be good.

legend - Member

Technical climbs - fitness
DH - fitness + skill
Singletrack- fitness

+ skill, for technical climbing and singletrack.

Not meaning that there isn't any skill involved, but guaranteed that any climb and singletrack (which I'm taking to mean "pedally as ****") would be won by a whippet

I don't get why people are getting so hung up on carrying 2 helmets, if FF's do become compulsory, which from an insurance perspective it will happen at some point for all Enduros. It'll only be a matter of time until someone has a big off and tries to sue the organisers IMO which will drive this. Then everyone wanting to enter the events will just have to suck it up and make the choice of just using a FF only, taking 2 helmets or not taking part at all.

If the pros can ride with 2 helmets on the EWS why can't us normal people do the same? Yes the courses probably aren't as tough at most EWS events but then a lot of them are being run on old DH tracks and if you were racing DH then you'd be riding them with FF helmets anyway.

Yes cost is probably a part of it for some people but if you can spunk £3k+ on a bike what's another £100 on a FF helmet.

Then put a motor on your bike so you don't have to pedal at all. Without pedalling you don't really have mountain biking. I know some riders just want downhill, and there's a discipline for that, called downhill. I'd like to see Enduro be different, but the events will go where the entrants & riders want it to, if that's more downhill focused then so be it. And if it's more downhill focused then FF will no doubt become mandatory, as it will be hard to see the difference.

@Legend- You might think that but look at the EWS this year- the pedalliest and least technical and steep stage couldn't be described as a downhill stage, it's 3 miles with only about 1000 feet of drop, 2 climbs, some very pedally sections through the trailcentre... Some flat out widetrack, but mostly classic, brilliant scottish singletrack (I built some of it, I would say that 😉 ), you could take your wednesday mixed bag night ride down it. I have done!

Results- Won by Jared Graves, Justin Leov 2nd, Martin Maes 3rd, Richie Rude, Nico Lau, Rene Wildhaber and Joe Barnes all in the top 10- in fact, 7 of the overall top 10, were in the top 10 for that stage, which is pretty consistent with the most technical stages, and the middly stages for that matter. (always somewhere between 6 and 8)

So it didn't go to a whippet, it went to a gang of superb allrounders, just like the other stages- which imo exactly how it should be.

ultimateweevil - Member

If the pros can ride with 2 helmets on the EWS why can't us normal people do the same?

What, like enduro world champion Jared Graves?

[img] [/img]

Or how about enduro world champion Tracey Moseley?

[img] [/img]

I'm not hugely fussed either way, but I really don't look forward to landing on my back with an XC lid attached

^ Because the current rule is helmets must be worn at all times, this means you either wear a FF all day which is just bloody stupid or carry 2. I would personally rather risk smashing my face in and wear an open facer all day than either wear a FF or run the risk of damaging my back 'cos I've strapped an extra helmet to my back. I already own a FF helmet.

I'm not disputing FF's are a PITA, I'd rather not have to ride in one that's for sure but it will be inevitable and moaning about it won't change it, people will just have to adapt to it.

Until (possibly) someone lands on a helmet attached to their pack and ****s their back - lawsuit for too many helmets

I don't buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

I don't buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

Well that's good. You appear to be the only one suggesting it.

fr0sty125 - Member

I don't buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

Nobody says it's prohibitively expensive.

But it [i]is[/i] a barrier to entry. You're thinking of doing your first enduro. You don't really know if you'll enjoy it. It costs £30 to enter, that sounds alright. Oh but you need a full face helmet, it's £50 even for a cheap one, suddenly it costs £80 to dabble in the sport, that's getting pricy for a single day out. And if you don't enjoy it, you'll probably never wear that helmet again. And if you do, you'll probably want to buy a better helmet. And finding one that fits, that you like, that's suitable for the job, when you've never had one before and you don't really know... Time and hassle.

Alternatively: Fancy doing that Fair City Enduro (*) at the weekend, it'll be a great laugh... Oh I dunno, what do I need? Just your normal bike and your normal riding kit. Do I not need a special enduro bike and helmet and kit and that? Nah, that's all just marketing bollocks. But I heard it's expensive? Nah, it's only £30. OK cool, I'm in, why not!

I had a fullface from riding downhill... If I didn't, and if my first enduro race had required one, I wouldn't have entered. Even after doing dozens of races, when the Bluegrass enduro mandated fullface, I'd have not entered if I'd not already had the helmet. And I'm too old to think I'm a beautiful and unique snowflake so if it'd put me off, it'll put other people off. And it's brilliant, so I'd hate to see that.

But also, as I said earlier- "Oh it's not for me, it's too dangerous and difficult- it must be, because you need a fullface helmet like a downhill race". The message is- this isn't like the mountain biking you do. Seeing the world's best riding with kit like yours on bikes like yours says, this is riding like yours. We are all doing the same sport.

(* It's the Fair City Enduro this weekend- it'll be ace. It's not a Proper Enduro because you don't need a fullface and 1337 skillz so normal people can do it, and you'll have to pedal a bit, but it was a great day out last year)

I dont have a problem with the FF rule, as i stated near the start of this thread hopefully it will see a move towards steeper more technical courses....talk of entire uphill stages, skills sections etc are not what they do in Europe as Enduro so please dont call it that, it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves....thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards, its the same for enduro....it is predominantly a downhill race with no more than 10-15% of climbing per timed stage, that is what they aim for on the continent and they invented the thing, chopping and changing it because a few old Brits dont want to wear FF seems daft, go and organise something else that suits your taste then...the Scottish organiser trying out Enduro-Lite sounds perfect for these guys and girls.

Pics below of the World Champions wearing FF on various Enduros....i should imagine they look at an Enduro beforehand and decide whether they need a FF or open face, then get on with it instead of bitching and moaning on an internet forum....you'll notice in the first pic Tracy Moseley appears to be carrying her open face on her back while wearing her FF....think of the kittens!

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deviant - Member

Pics below of the World Champions wearing FF on various Enduros....i should imagine they look at an Enduro beforehand and decide whether they need a FF or open face, then get on with it

When the rules say they have to wear full face, they do. I don't know what you think that tells us? But when the rules give them a choice, it shows us what they think is the best option. And of course shows that the whole "your race is too easy" or "ur not trying hard enough lol" thing is nonsense.

Simple question for you- if you're crashing on your back, would you rather have a helmet strapped on there, or not?

More complicated question- do you think that wearing a fullface is always safer?

deviant - Member

it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves... thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards,

What, like touch rugby? Rugby league vs union? Rugby 7s? 😆

.talk of entire uphill stages, skills sections etc are not what they do in Europe as Enduro so please dont call it that, it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves....thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards, its the same for enduro..

So from Europe...
Enduro is a sport where
You ride technical or descending sections of trail that are timed and have a time limit to get between them. You ride the transitions unless you take uplift as part of the event and the nature of the stages is such that there is some riding of a varying nature but is more down than up completed in somewhere between 1 and 3 days.

It's a relatively new sport for most people, it's not got a rigid definition and as Northwind put so much better than I am about to who died and made you the god of enduro. Until the King of Gnar from Gnarporn trademarks the name Enduro and officially has to inspect every inch of tract to ensure he gets a gnar boner from it then I think it can go the way it wants to. It's raced differently in a lot of countries, give it a chance, it's not XC it's not DH it's a multi stage race.

just saying...

in at least 3 of those pics the riders have only 1 helmet, and in 2 pics the rider isn't even carrying a bag.

so, enduro, no bags allowed.

and here is a photo of the EWS World Champion
[img] [/img]
Wearing a cap
[img] [/img]
Thinking what he could do with his baguette
[img] [/img]
and in a magazine called Enduro racing in lycra

What does that tell us?

scottfitz - Member
This rule will only apply to certain events if you don't like it don't race or choose a event that doesn't have the rule, simple!

Let me put my previous comment in to context. At the moment only one race organiser (5 race series) has come out and said the will make FF mandatory.

There were 50+ Enduro races in the UK in 2014 if you don't like the rule you still have 45+ races to pick from!

However if BC start enforcing the rule on race organisers then you will have less to pick from but hopefully still enough for new riders to try the sport.

deviant all your pics are from enduro's that use ski lifts to help you get to the start of stages. Very different to enduro's in the UK.

scottfitz - Member

Let me put my previous comment in to context. At the moment only one race organiser (5 race series) has come out and said the will make FF mandatory.

Yup. And personally I think that's a nice strong precedent- race organisers can make the decision that's right for their series.

But, on the other hand, the UKGE being one of the national series is very influential.... and should BC decide to continue to support the sport, while also continuing to be a bit clueless about it, I reckon there's a chance that they follow where Steve leads.

And probably likewise insurers (though, heh, maybe the insurance should be higher for events that think a fullface is required? 😉 )

it is predominantly a downhill race with no more than 10-15% of climbing per timed stage, that is what they aim for on the continent

Right, so if there's 16% climbing, it's not Enduro, and presumably they then consult you on what it is called?

Is that 10-15% horizontal distance? Or height gained as a proportion of height lost?

The whole "this is what world champions are doing", is pretty irrelevant too when as Northwind's said repeatedly the whole selling point of enduro is that it's "the riding you normally do", but competitive. That's no different to telling some beginner doing a BC Go-Ride event that they have to shave their legs and wear lycra, because that's what the winner of the Tour de France does!

njee20 - Member

Right, so if there's 16% climbing, it's not Enduro, and presumably they then consult you on what it is called?

Is that 10-15% horizontal distance? Or height gained as a proportion of height lost?

The whole "this is what world champions are doing", is pretty irrelevant too when as Northwind's said repeatedly the whole selling point of enduro is that it's "the riding you normally do", but competitive.

Pedant.

The article i've borrowed from is by Matt Wragg who is a MTB-er himself, a photographer of the sport and a journalist involved in MTB-ing, he wrote the article 'A Beginners Guide To Enduro: What The Hell Is It?' back in 2012 because there was a huge amount of confusion surrounding this new (to the UK) form of racing...if you google it you can find it on various sites.

It's a good informative little piece, well worth a read, it goes into the history of this discipline, early races in Europe, the current Enduro scene in Europe, general guidelines as to what constitutes an Enduro and what doesnt.

The source of much confusion in the UK is the word Enduro itself, because it is so similar to Endurance people still think it is a marathon type event, it isnt and if you want to do a trial of your endurance then there are Marathon type events out there....

....the next bit is down to the MTB press in the UK, in order to drum up interest in the new discipline they started referring to it as "the kind of riding you do with your mates", while i'm sure they had the best of intentions and didnt want this new variation of MTB-ing to appear intimidating or exclusive it has kind of led to an Enduro scene now where if things do get steep and technical and FF lids are spoken about then a startling number of riders are now crying foul and saying things like 'i dont wear a FF with my mates' or 'i dont need a FF to ride around the woods' etc etc

My personal preference is for a FF, in a race situation i can ride at 10 tenths and not worry about about a dog walker round the corner or somebody riding in the other direction...there are also marshals and medics at a race which inspires a bit more confidence, for me the FF is the finishing touch which takes the last bit of weight from my shoulders and allows me to ride as i would like....i can happily poke up with some extra heat on the transitions.

I have several FF lids because i also ride motorbikes on and off road, there are so many different types that you can always find one that is comfortable, vented enough etc....in the same way that people on here chop and change saddles, bars etc until they find the perfect fit the same can be true for helmets.
There is a huge difference between the FF i wear on my dirtbike and the FF i wear on my MTB, the motorcycle one will boil my head on a warm day but the MTB one has a larger facial aperture and plenty of venting, its also loads lighter and i can peddle around in it without too many problems...being asked to wear a FF for an Enduro is not the end of the world, organisers will soon learn how hard they can push fully kitted up FF riders on the transitions and if people are suffering/struggling due to being asked to wear FF lids then organisers will have to make transitions easier or risk nobody turning up next year.

re. the pic of Tracy Moseley with her open face on her back, no real reason behind that photo other than the hysteria on here about being asked to carry a lid on your back during an Enduro.
Personally i wouldnt do it, i'd poke up with a FF for the day but each to their own.
Is it any different to riders heading off on the trail with a rucksack packed full of stuff laying over their spine?....i've seen riders putting all manner of solid objects in their rucksacks before heading out and it always gives me the jitters, not saying people on this thread do the same but its something to think about.

Last opinion from me on FF and Enduro, if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions...refer back to the article by Matt Wragg i mentioned, the important part of an Enduro is the timed (predominantly downhill) stages, if the focus has shifted to the transitions and what helmet to wear then people have probably lost sight of what is actually being timed/raced in the event.

Anyway,it will be interesting to see which way Enduro goes in 2015, i know which direction i'll be hoping for but there will no doubt be enough races out there to cater for everybody.

Last opinion from me on FF and Enduro, if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions...refer back to the article by Matt Wragg i mentioned, the important part of an Enduro is the timed (predominantly downhill) stages, if the focus has shifted to the transitions and what helmet to wear then people have probably lost sight of what is actually being timed/raced in the event.

^^This. Look at the Superenduro series (all pedalling up, no lifts), majority of riders stay in a FF all day rather than carry 2. Given that a: Superenduro events are typically longer than UK Enduro events and b: it's warmer in Italy, the overheating argument isn't really that valid and if transition times (note I said time not distance) need adjusting to make it less XC, then that's all good.

deviant - Member

i've seen riders putting all manner of solid objects in their rucksacks before heading out and it always gives me the jitters,

Yup, exactly the same for me- so why would we want to encourage that?

deviant - Member

if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions

It's one of several objections rather than the main one... But you have to go up to have a gravity sport! Some organisers do seem to like to make transitions harder than they should be (UKGE used some weird routes at innerleithen) but if you want to have a decent number of decent stages you end up with a lot of climbing.

So the EWS E2 was about 50 miles over 2 days with something like 9000 feet of climbing, frinstance. (plus the same again or more for practice). But even then I don't think people choose open face for the climbing- I don't anyway, I choose it for all the riding.

And once again "Well they do it in Italy" is really not an argument why we should do it here. It shows it's possible to do it here, but nobody disputes that anyway.

I heard that EWS rd6 Whistler was 50km and 3800m climbing... in 1 day....Also no fuel stations, so self sufficient. Would this be classed as Endurance Enduro? 😛

Personally I dont give a hoot. I have a FF and will wear it if required. I will check the length/altitude gain of transitions and weather forecast prior to race and decide whether to take both lids or not. Simples. I'd also not bother doing an Enduro the length of EWS Rd6!

Incidentally- Dudes of Hazard Enduro/SES round 6 is very nearly sold out and is consistently brilliant. So if anyone fancies stopping arguing about enduro for long enough to do some enduroing, get in now.