[Closed] Lynskey or Van Nicholas Ti 456?

Warranty covers don't usually transfer to second owners, but if you have all the relevant paper work, who's to know?

It's a tricky question though because no one has yet reviewed the new ti456 and just because it's the same angles and lengths of tube, doesn't mean to say that it's going to ride the same. I'd be interested to see what difference the tube profiles and metal working that Lynskey put into their frames make.

I also just recently bought a second hand ti456 although this one doesn't have a reinforcement bridge and I wasn't aware that they'd introduced this. Can you tell me more.

I paid over £200 less for mine than a new one would cost though so all in I reckon that the discount made it a better choice for me. If they had been the same price, I think I would have gone new and got the warranty, even though they might not end up being as good.

Cant comment on the new one but still loving mine(Lynskey)
2 years on!
Think Brant questioned the added brace on the last Lynskey
made ones?

The dropout snaps off on the ones without the brace, thats why it was added by lynskey

Well i've never noticed mine falling off!

Any high end Ti bicycle welder is as good as Lynsky IMO. I'd be inclined to buy based on features and looks rather than manufacturer -as long as they were high end.

I've got a Lynsky version without the brace, but thats because thats what came up when I was looking.

All the pictures I've seen of broken chainstay ones have large discs on the rear.

Like this:

On One sent it back to Lynskey for me. £100 all-in (carriage to from the US plus back to me and the repair - new rear d/s triangle).

Not sure there'd be an issue over ownership, although On One / Lynskey might not have relationship in a couple of years?

tbh - there are firms in the UK who can repair them anyway

The dropout snaps off on the ones without the brace, thats why it was added by lynskey

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

There are a couple of concerns for me with the older frame. Firstly there are far too many reports (often documented with photographs) of the same breakage in both the pre and post braced tail. Also, since brants departure, and with the introduction of the new design, on one was very critical of Lynskey and the quality of their work. The comments were quickly toned down, but taken alongside the rear failures, clearly suggests that on one was very unhappy with the frame's design and manufacturing quality.

The ti 456 [i]looks[/i] a more convensional (and hopefully reliable) design, but only rider reports will tell.

Edit: interestingly lynskey have a number of frame designs that all incorporate the rear brace. Look for them on chainreactioncycles.com.

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

No, but it looks like it should work so it probably does. I heard thats the way lynskey build their frames

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

can you explain to me why the ones without the brace have failed at the dropout?

they all failed?

Failure on some pictures I've seen looks like inadequate/poor weld penetration, but I'm a layman on these things.

[img] [/img]

That is the only picture of a Ti456 failure I have seen, I don't think it is quite the problem that some STWers make out 🙄

That photo made me realise that a 203mm rear disc is overkill - but also glad that I'd the one with the extra 'pipe'.

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

mine is one of the early ones without the brace and it hasn't broken. As far as I'm concerned it's reliable. That picture ^^^ is the only one I've seen too. How heavy was the rider for a start and what was he /she doing to the bike... riding it off cliffs ?

Kev

That is scary.

It's funny all the titanium mythology - bike for like and all that, but I have seen more cracked and broken titanium frame pics on the interwebs than carbon or steel or aluminium put together recently.

The fact is, titanium is not as strong as good steel. It's not indestructible, and it needs to be designed and welded properly to withstand some of the things MTBs get put through these days. For me, the jury is out.

[i]Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor? [/i]

I dont see it.

mine is still in one piece 2 years later having used hope m4 180mm on the rear.
great bike - excellent geometry and perfect reach.
i still yearn for iscg tabs, but will settle for my BB mounted chain device.
iscg tabs + hammerschmidt....... 🙂

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

davidtaylforth - No, but it looks like it should work so it probably does.

bigdugsbaws - That is the only picture of a Ti456 failure I have seen, I don't think it is quite the problem that some STWers make out

there were quite a few more

Yep. One or two stories about frame failures is understandable, but there are quite a few about this one and all relate to the rear triangle. That redesign with the strut really made me think again about titanium as a frame material. If I saw a carbon or aluminium frame with one of those modifications I'd run away.

Perhaps rather than blame the metal one should consider the manufacturer. I am firmly of the opinion that all Ti frames are not created equal. I'm still using a 1997/8 Merlin Taiga Ti frame. Over the years, aside from plenty of North Wales and Scottish riding it's also done 3 trips to Morzine, one to Austria and one to the Rockies. No problems at all. In fact I'm just in the process of rebuilding the bike after having a disc mount added and the canti studs removed by none other than Steve Potts in Marin County. (I just hope that this isn't a modification too far!) However, the disc mount is a rather fancy thing with a slender spine extending up the seatstay to spread the load / forces along a seatstay that perhaps was never designed to take the stresses of a disc brake.

Interestingly, Steve has some (anonymised) photos on his site of "mass produced" Ti frames which have been sent to him for repair. Usually the issue seems to be poor welding rather than the metal itself failing.

By the way, Brant, thanks for your advice earlier in the year about the disc conversion.

My Van Nic (456...) Mamtor. It's great BTW.

[img] [/img]

there were quite a few more

Are you just stirring, or care to actually provide any more info?

If I saw a carbon or aluminium frame with one of those modifications I'd run away

OK how about a steel one? My Genesis Croix de Fer has one. My 456 has one. Guess which broke?* Aluminium and carbon fibre stays tend to be larger diameter so cope with the bending load from the brake much better.

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

The moment applied from the braking mount stead of being all bending and shear through the chainstay is now shared between the chain stay and the seat stay, the extra tube transfers some of the moment through a compressive strut.

Can I have a job now?

* Answer - neither 🙄

ChrisS - Member

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

I only see a tab washer

ChrisS - Member

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

I only see a tab washer

It's hard to see what it is but whatever it is it doesn't look right.

It's hard to see what it is but whatever it is it doesn't look right.

It's a washer for two bolts (is that called a washer tab uplink?)

Jont- try googling it.

Jont- try googling it.

Yep. One or two stories about frame failures is understandable, but there are quite a few about this one and all relate to the rear triangle.

I spoke to p-x about a year ago when I first thought about selling mine, about warranty transfer, and about the cracked dropouts. I was told there had been 6 failures.
I'm not sure whether that number has gone up, or not, but it does seem to be the same small set of failures that crop up time and time again on these threads- unlike when somebody posts saying that their Commencal has failed.
It's a shame we can't know how many frames were sold, how many have failed, and whether the failures were limited to a particular production run.
Podge, I thought you worked there for a bit -posting something like 'there were quite a few more' isn't very helpful damn you, it's hard to know whether that's half a dozen more, or 50 more.

I emailed on one to ask why they had added the extra brace and about
broken ti456's, didn't really get an answer about the brace but was
assured only a handfull had broken!
My take on it all is any frame can break but the ti456 was so well reviewed
that lots of people took an instant dislike to it and any hint of a problem
they jump on the "they all break" bandwagon.
It is the best hardtail frame i have ever owned(lots) and really hope mine
doesn't break for a long time!

I think he means the marks on the rotor from the metal implement thats been used to bend up the edges of the washertab/tab washer.

My take on it all is any frame can break but the ti456

Yes, any frame can break.

The problem with the Ti456 is it cant brake! (at least not with a snapped seatstay)

I was told there had been 6 failures.

Superstar have never had any brake pads returned either................

Find it slightly hard to believe that I've met 1in3 of the people who've snapped them? I've only met 3 people on ti 456's, and the other was a braced one!

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

yes, do you have a pen, paper and calculator handy?

Sellotape and pencils is probably a better idea. How does the brace stop the failure shown above?

aww, come on Brant, we're not interested in that stuff, just how many failed. 😈

I'd be more interested to hear how you made a hardtail go so ****ing fast 😆

Cant see images from this PC but presume its the one with the chainstay/dropout pulled appart, the crack startign at the bottom of the weld?

Braking creates a moment arround the rear axel, on the unbraced one the disk mount and seatstay dropout have rotated arround as one (bigger weld, lower stress, than the chainstay/dropout weld?) and pulled the dropout off the chainstay.

Add a brace, the disk mount can no longer flex into the rear triagle, problem solved. Obviously you could argue the 'dropout' has just beem made bigger, why wont it crack att the brace/chainstay join?
- theres no weld, the chainstay is one continuous tube, and therefore stronger than the chainstay/dropout joint.
- being further from the fulcrum (rear axel) the force (and therefore stress, and therefore strain) is lower.
- less butting (I'm guesing, but after adding a big brace like that the tube is no longer butted in that area) so the tube is the same thickness as it is at the dropout therfore backing up the above point about lower stress.

It could have been a good design with poor welding, or a poor design with good welding, or poor design and poor welding, either way a number of the failed.

Look carefully at both frames and you will see a big difference in weld quality.

A mate of mine has a Lynskey-built Ti456 and the quality of welding is of extremely high standard.

Yesterday, while having a mid-ride tea break at a local hotspot I was looking over two Van Nicholas frames and tbh the welds were shocking. Instead of that "stack of nickels tipped over" effect you see on high end Tig welded tube junctions the welds had been very obviously rubbed down, finished off etc. The only reason you would do this as a frame builder is to tidy up crappy welds...

Whatever claims people make about how good Van Nicholas, Chinese manufacturing is, etc.. you just can't compare a new Ti456 to the old one.

The guy welding the frame in the factory in China probably earns as much as the guy across the street in a different factory that makes rubber shoes. Why exactly should he care about quality?

By the way, I am a qualified and certified welder, so do a know a thing or two about this.

From the pic above of the broken chain/seat stay, that is poor weld penetration, no question. It's not a design fault. Every manufacturing process will have a margin of error - a "parts per million" failure rate. That welder obviously had an off day, but there's no reason to suggest it's a common fault - and compared to what I saw on the Van Nic's I know which one I'd choose!

By the way, I am a qualified and certified welder, so do a know a thing or two about this.

then you also know about heat/porosity/contamination/penetration/using a gas purge etc
and how 'neatness' doesn't necessarily mean a solid weld.

I've had a few DMR's, the welding looks like a pidgeon flew over and shat on it. Tough as brick outhouses though.

Here comes the bullshit from the knobs again. If you have the money to pay a huge amount extra for neater welds for a frame which pretty much rides the same, good for you. I'm happy with my lifetime warranty...

Too many people are fastidiously anal about insignificant things that have no impact on anything bar bragging rights it seems...

MrSmith: yes, I do. That's not what I said though is it?

Also, pretty sure that the dropouts on the older Lynskey's were inserted into the chainstay and then the gap welded shut. The later Lynskey's had proper formed ends of the dropouts, shaped kind of like bullet ends, to increase weld area. The brace is just there to reduce flex and make sure it literally can't happen again.