dmiller, im not slagging it!
it looks well good to me. i'm deffo gonna try and get up there
Jedi - then I have totally miss-read your posts... sorry!
I wish the internet had a "pint in a pub" button. One press of the button and everyone in the forum magically appears in a pub, pint in hand, for a chat.
So much easier that way!
I'd have said the words you're looking for are "willing volunteers".
"indentured slaves", surely? 🙂 I hear ya completely about the enthusiasm thing, many mountain bikers just don't seem to get the connection between building something, maintaining it, and having somewhere good to ride. A bit more of the dirt jumper mentality of "you dig, then you ride" wouldn't go amiss IMO.
The problem with planky stuff is that the raw materials work out a lot more expensive than conventional trails, even if you get volunteers to do the actual building.
im talking about chickn wire and its use as grip agent.
plus i do have shore building experience .
am in talks with building a wooden trail at a trail center too .
It's 2 hours from me. I haven't ridden it yet because there are heaps of other brilliant trails between me and it. I'm going to ride it next year, and the black - and heaps of trails between me and it. I sometimes wish I lived down South so I could spend more time on the internet whinging about trails I haven't ridden rather than going out and riding trails. 😛
It's gash
Blimey, you're a tough person to please, where's the mecca that you compare it to?
im talking about chicken wire and its use as grip agent.
I think that a grippy paint would be more skin friendly... perhaps get a sample of each out in the local woods and see how they handle winter and what local riders think?
[I]The problem with planky stuff is that the raw materials work out a lot more expensive than conventional trails, even if you get volunteers to do the actual building.[/i]
depends where you're building it. build that far up a (proper) hill and it becomes very expensive to helicopter in enough rocks to build a [b]sustainable[/b] trail across a boggy hillside. as was pointed out a while back, boardwalk like that is a lot easier/cheaper to remove in future too.
slagging the trail without riding it and without having built something better seems a bit pointless.
You know, in the sober light of day as my nerves jangle with a 2.5 bottles of red wine hangover I do feel a bit bad about being so relentlessly negative about the trail and someone's handywork, especially having never ridden it. I do still think it is a bit of an eyesore though, and more suited to the Tate Modern rather than a Scottish hillside.
yes it's very expensive and time consuming, and (in our case) FE structural engineers have to get involved.
It can be done with free materials off the floor tho:
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nice log work
Marty, point taken, but that still puts it at the more expensive end of the scale. My comments were aimed more at the guy who wanted to know why the FC weren't covering his local hill with woodwork.
Nana, second what Jedi said. I'll have to have get searching the Singletraction forum and see if I can discover the secrets of knackerising. 🙂
the boys at deepcut experimented with grip paint nearly 10 years ago now.
chicken wire/plasterers lathe lasts longer and works better
Blimey, you're a tough person to please, where's the mecca that you compare it to?
Er...... I dunno....... the trail right next to it? You know the one, starts at the same place, finishes at the same place, you might have seen it on the internet a few times.
Well I don't get the log stuff in terms of riding.
I understand it's the easiest options to build a trail depending on the conditions, but in such case why make it wider than 25 cm?
Trail is fun but I agree with Jedi - the timber sections could have been executed far more imaginatively. Also, not at all sure how it will all fare / ride longer term - with or without chicken wire. That's a hellish environment up there...
From an engineering point of view there is a far superior material commonly available and readily used in marine environments - meshdeck. This stuff is INCREDIBLY grippy and all the sh1t and gloop which is currently getting dragged onto the running surface would just get washed through with the rain.
Basically it's a structural fibreglass with open squares and a crushed quartz aggregate coating bonded within the surface. It's manufactured in sheet form and can be cut to size. Comes in various colours too iirc. For the Nevisrange application it could just have been bolted directly down onto the stringers. Not a natural prodct like timber but I think it would actually blend in better in the correct colour - the timber will bleach and become very visible.
Cost would be comparitively high but then you are looking at something that comes with a 50 year warranty for pedestrian use and they are charging £25 a throw to use the track for the day. Would have been worth exploring imo
the boardwalk at glencoe appears to be a means to an end (or rather reach the end of a steep off camber bog traverse)rather then a taxing bit of trail.
unfortunately you have to design these things for numpties to ride rather than technical for skilled bikers.
oh and chicken wire is the only way forward for grip on shore. all the alternatives are a maintenance nightmare and completely unpredictable grip wise.
B.A.Nana - that looks superb!
paulrockliffe - MemberBlimey, you're a tough person to please, where's the mecca that you compare it to?
Er...... I dunno....... the trail right next to it? You know the one, starts at the same place, finishes at the same place, you might have seen it on the internet a few times.
You mean the one that is grade as black and a lot of non god like riding persons wouldn't ride down and such they decied to build a easier one for the masses?
£25 quid!?! Christ.
Re the chickenwire debate, surely the most durable/cost effective solution is to roughen up the surface of the wood like in the above pictures, or use wood that naturally splits with a rough grain, like they do in Canananandana?
they use chicken wire in canada loads too
Wood still becomes lethal in the wet/damp for months on end.
they use chicken wire in canada loads too
Is that everywhere, or just on machine cut timber?
they use chicken wire in canada loads too
Is that everywhere, or just on machine cut timber?
on various trails. some on cedar itself
what gets me is if someone had invented Boardwalk Biking then everyone would have laffffed and say what a stupid hobby that is'so whats the diffrence? I really dont get it. Would be understadable in urban areas but when everyone raves about them in areas where there is so much MOUNTAIN BIKING then eh? Same with all this Norf Shaw stuff. Why when there are always MOUNTAIN BIKE TRAILS all around? Comments like above 'wood still becomes lethal when wet/damp' a bit like tree roots when I go mountain biking then? Oh its all rubbish! Go ride on the dirt and put all that 2.35" of rubber to propper use.... Sorry for the rant. Oh then they go and put chicken wire on it all for grip! Ya dont see that on ya wet tree roots!!!
Scruzer, congratulations on the most incomprehensible post I have read for some time. 🙂
I'd guess Larch is the nearest indigeneous species we have to Cedar. Split Larch logs and a more techinical layout would have been more in keeping with the rest of the trail...
>£25 quid!?! Christ.<
'Bout par for the course for a lift pass tho I thought they should have had it running for 7 or 8 hours for that.
The DH bike hire on the other hand really is extortionate imo:
http://www.offbeatbikes.co.uk/hire-pricelist.asp
no cdw included in the 70 smackers either
okay scuzzer... the boardwalk is over knee deep bog. Not stuff you could cycle.
scruzer you don't really understand why north shore came about do you? basically to get you from one nice piece of trail to another when unfortunately the part in the middle is crap and unrideable, usually a bog.
I went to Canada in July and there was hardly any north shore sections that had chicken wire: It was virtually all hand split cedar that has a natural rough grain to it. In fact the sections that do have chicken wire are gradually being replaced. Talking to the guide though, apparently we don't have a tree that has similar properties to the cedar (cedar also has a sap that acts as a natural preservative) in the U.K..
I'm no tree expert so can't comment on how true this last part is.
Guys, just noticed a couiple of comments, so does the track close during the winter?
why north shore came about do you? basically to get you from one nice piece of trail to another when unfortunately the part in the middle is crap and unrideable, usually a bog.
Exactly. And importantly, on the original North Shore as well as on Scottish mountains, it is also about making the trails sustainable so that wet/muddy sections aren't eroded into deeper and wider tracks through the landscape. The technical challenges & fun of North Shore ladders are generally a secondary consideration.
I agree that some more creativity could have made it more interesting, but at the end of the day the builders probably had a budget to work to and if the hillside is legally protected, their goal was to effectively build an overpass for that part of the hill.
coffeeking- "£25 quid!?! Christ."
£25 for a full day's uplift, not just a single trip. Well, not a full day, it's 10am to 3.45 or something like that, because of their licence. Hopefully to change next year.
Heather Bash: "Also, not at all sure how it will all fare / ride longer term - with or without chicken wire. That's a hellish environment up there..."
There's boardwalk in the downhill which is at least 7 years old. No doubt a lot of the wood in that old stuff isn't original mind but it's not been entirely replaced. Definately a missed opportunity though, who knows, maybe they'll revisit it when the bottom section of the trail's built- the trail as a whole is still a work in progress. I'd sooner they extend the bottom of the trail than spend time building more timber myself
I think chicken wire's got its weaknesses- it can last for ages, but it can also get torn up in no time by hamfisted riders, I've seen new wire get torn within weeks of being fitted at glentress for instance- people grab a big handful of rear brake and the tyre hooks in. And this is exactly the sort of trail where people go too fast then panic brake.
Oh, the other thing is that while paint doesn't last very well, it's cheap and easy to replace so a constant maintenance routine is pretty feasible.
Oh, on the subject of distressed/machined/knackerised wood surfaces- that was one of the approaches used on the big Ben Lawers trail assessment project, they used both a "tongued" finish and an irregular chiseled finish, and found that it works well but that the wood holds more water and rots drastically faster than plain finished wood.
Hi guys, thanks for the compliments re our woodwork at Stainburn, however it's more experienced trail builders than me who come up with the ideas and solutions.
As most people involved know, chicken wire is no longer allowed by FC/FE, hence the alternative solutions we now have to come up with. On one of our wooden structures we've been trialing some treated decking since January 09.
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This is a quote from the proposal submitted to FC. It's basically a sand/epoxy resin applied to treated decking.
"Andy suggested the only suitable and reliable product would be to use an epoxy based surface grip treatment, the epoxy resin is applied to the wood and allowed to soak in, in the test piece the epoxy soaked about 6mm (see top sample in picture) in to the surface of the wood essentially changing the top 6mm in to a plastic/wood composite, after a set time a special grip sand is then applied on top of the epoxy and it is left to soak in and set. The result is a very grippy, flexible and durable surface which is well bonded to the wood, this is very similar to what is used on climbing walls."
So far, it seems to be holding up well, it's doesn't look it in the photos above, but the obstical is actually quite steep and exits onto a big rock garden, so people are usually braking hard.
Er...... I dunno....... the trail right next to it? You know the one, starts at the same place, finishes at the same place, you might have seen it on the internet a few times.
Is it cos you is too awesome for da red? Kudos to you being so gnarly that only Fort Bill black is good enough for your skillz to the maxx but do you not get a bit bored just doing one trail all the time? I suppose it's all about 1st impressions and if it was a howling gale the time you did it and not a lot of fun then that's the image that will stick.
Re rough split wood, they used it on the new trails at Gisburn Forest, I can't copy and paste for some reason, so here's a link to some SimonFBarnes pics
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-wet-day-out-in-gisburn-pics ]Gisburn photos[/url]
According to the forester, they put logs into a big machine that rough splits logs end on. The result is a rough split log, which is good, but lateral grip is still poor.
as smoke says, you only learn how to ride the north shore when it rains...
Oh, on the subject of distressed/machined/knackerised wood surfaces- that was one of the approaches used on the big Ben Lawers trail assessment project, they used both a "tongued" finish and an irregular chiseled finish, and found that it works well but that the wood holds more water and rots drastically faster than plain finished wood.
Good point, we currently have no idea how long many of our solutions and techniques will last. I think some of the stuff we've built has a very limited life span. It might go against what Jedi thinks, but we kind of work on a principle that the volunteers build stuff that they want to build and ride, other people can come along and play on it aswell, for as long as it lasts. Some stuff might be worth maintaining, especially the core trails and obsticals. Other stuff can be more temporary and decomissioned at a later date. The trail builders of 8 years ago are not the same people that are there now, not everything can be maintained to a high standard, we just don't have the numbers of willing volunteers turning up.
A few mates have been up and ridden it and reckon it's pretty good - it's red for a DH but not red like the conventional red-graded trail centres red - so if you haven't done much riding in DH stuff it might be a bit of an eye opener.
Personally, I'm really not that fussed about it - boardwalk just doesn't appeal to me - I understand why it has been done but it has no attraction for me...I'll give it a bash at some point so I can say I've ridden it but it just doesn't strike me as a place that would make me want to go back to - simply due to the amount of boardwalk on display.
Reviews I've heard from mates say it is good fun though...