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So which material gives the best balance of light weight, impact resistance and flexibility of manufacture?
Cotton wool
is a**** someones user name...thats a good un
So which material gives the best balance of light weight, impact resistance and flexibility of manufacture?
How does that help determine which is the best material when you're only considering impact resistance? You remember - the property you were claiming carbon composite was best at.
Erm... Are we only considering impact resistance? I can't for the life of me think why you wouldn't consider other properties when making things out of it... Or am I missing something??? 🙄
You appear to be missing the ability to remember what you've written. Here's a reminder:
Carbon is THE BEST material to cope with sharp impacts
There are a variety of different plastics: polyester, cyanate ester (resistant to micro-cracking) etc but companies like Advanced Composite Group give you the choice of epoxy or epoxy.
http://www.advanced-composites.co.uk/PSG_Electronic_Files/Sport_and_Leisure/productnmaterials.html
Shibboleth - Member
so what are the chances of a bunch of IT nerds that ride bikes once a week being able to speak with any authority??
Work in IT do you?
Is an IT nerd the same as an IT girl
Is the "overbuilt" On One Carbon 456 bulletproof and is bullet damage covered under warranty 😉
amoron - MemberYou appear to be missing the ability to remember what you've written. Here's a reminder:
Carbon is THE BEST material to cope with sharp impacts
Yes, it is. If weight wasn't an issue, I might be tempted to go for cast iron plate or sandbags, but who wants to ride a bike built out of a bomb shelter???
Only a moron would seek to make a clever point on the basis that my comment wasn't followed up with such a disclaimer, T&Cs, caveats etc in a discussion about BIKE BUILDING MATERIAL!!!
Oh, hang on... 🙄
So mr ad-hom, you didn't actually mean that "Carbon is THE BEST material to cope with sharp impacts" then? Maybe you should do a bit of work on your written communication.
Can I just check - are you now claiming that carbon composite is THE BEST material to cope with sharp impacts on a weight for weight basis?
I tell you what, seeing as you have nothing better to do, why don't you run along and see if you can find any more posts that aren't followed by chapter-and-verse of disclaimers.
This is a cycling website. And this is a discussion about bike material. It GOES WITHOUT SAYING that when someone posts a comment about a material, it is in reference to it as a bike building material.
Why don't you run along to Mumsnet and argue with them.
You seem to have an anger management problem - you really should get some help with that.
If you were just talking about something as a bike building material, why on earth did you bring planes and bullet proof vests into the argument? If you check back, you'll find you were happily arguing that one, until you felt the need to shift the argument in an attempt to find a little solid ground.
So are you now claiming that carbon composite is THE BEST material to cope with sharp impacts out of those materials used for bike building?
This forum makes me laugh.
Some of you are so intent on one-upmanship that you forget what the initial topic of the thread was.
Now now children, lets all put our dummies back in, and scoop the toys back into the pram, and lets try to have a civilised conversation about this.
I don't think that there is a specific length of time that a carbon frame will last. If you're a light, careful rider who doesn't give it much abuse and looks after it well, then it will last you a lifetime.
If you're the other end of the scale, and you're constantly thrashing it to within an inch of its life, and rarely take the time to give it a clean and check, then it goes without saying that the expected lifespan will more than likely be a lot less.
There is still such a stigma attached to Carbon frames and components. Perhaps peoples' worries were justified in its early days, as manufacturers didn't have the knowledge then that they do now. But with modern frames and components, manufacturers are now able to make things which are lighter, stronger and stiffer than aluminium, steel or even titanium equivalents. I see no reason why a Carbon frame won't last longer than an aluminium one, and potentially as long as a steel or titanium one.
Well having read quite a few of these monthly carbon based instalments I can see a general trend towards people here liking the stuff and realising that it's probably the way things are going to go. Two years ago it was a unanimous NO, now I reckon over half give carbon frames a big YES.
Having snapped 4 Alu frames and 1 Steel one I have every faith in my c456 lasting as long as I want it to which is as long as I'm riding because it's an awesome frame.
Hi Shibboleth
Please can you name me some military land vehicles (in service with UK forces) that use carbon fibre for major structural components subjected to fatigue and impacts (e.g. chassis, suspension arms etc). I suspect you are getting confused about blast resistant armoured composite body panels that may / may not contain carbon fibre. The manufacturers are usually very secretive about what exactly goes into these panels, but I strongly suspect they are not comparable to the type of carbon fibre construction used in bike frames.
Carbon fibre (in the bike frame context) is a good material and has the potential to be very durable (especially in terms of fatigue). One thing I don’t like is the potential for it to sustain structural internal impact damage with no visible external evidence. My concern about this may be misplaced - so it would help if the bike industry published information to dispell this concern (e.g. comparable fatigue and strength test results on impacted vs non impacted components). The aerospace industry already tests in this way (adding deliberate repeatable amounts of damage).
Personally (others will have different views), I’m happier with an external dent in a metallic structure that I can observe and monitor for crack growth etc.
I also struggle with the end of life / recycling issues with carbon fibre – especially in applications where there is a comparatively small benefit compared to 100% recyclable metallic structures (and by recyclable I mean it can be repeatedly reprocessed into another high grade product).
No they don't, it's five years for all Giant frames, regardless of frame material.
err, so how come the manual for the carbon Giant i got last week says lifetime warranty on all their frames....
Mick R-soul. You obviously have a lot more time to waste than me, so in summary:
Land vehicles?
UK forces?
Chassis, suspension arms etc?
You strongly suspect wrong...
They are misplaced...
So sorry to here you "struggle", your life must be quite unbearable.
That's all.
I thought the plastic ones were disposable?
Chunkymtb....that's a good video, there is also one where he hits a carbon frame with a hammer....gently at first but then has to beat the crap out of it to break it.....he then does the same to an Alu frame and the first tap dents the metal frame.
Got no problem with carbon fibre, great material for bike frames.
Some CFRP is only 30% plastic,
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=carbon_fiber_reinforced_polymer_composites
Just dropped my carbon Giant XTC Advanced into the LBS for warranty replacement. 🙁
I'm sure a carbon frame will last until the Aluminium Alloy Foam and Graphene ones start coming out.
Hmmm maybe Giant are not so good. Just had the LBS on the phone saying the bike has been inspected and that Giant are not going to support a warranty claim.
Bike lasted 72hr / 16 months although the crack has been there for a while and progressively getting worse.
I get a report on Tuesday so will be interesting reading.
i was wondering when someone was going to point out its only 65 percent as strong to start with
damn you macavity
pjm just get it repaired if they wont play
I have used a carbon beachcaster for years, it bends in half firing bait and a five ounce lead 170-180 yards in all weathered, been blown over on rocks and still in good order. It is the main reason I decided to buy a carbon frame
Most likely to bin it and replace with something from On One. It Giant's response that annoyed me. Seatpost is different, bike has been used for "jumping" etc. (I have 4 MTBs, 1x Iron Horse Sunday, 1x Lapierre Spicy, 1x Trek Top Fuel and the Giant Advanced hardtail. A different bike for a different requirements).
I used to row and used carbon blades since the mid 80s. Never had a problem
I've retired one carbon frame that made it's 5 year life span, including riding over the pave at 35kph (Sub 9hr for 260km Flanders) . It was a direct replacement for one that only lasted 6 months. How does that work?
If you're 16.5stone and put out around 1800-2000 watts in a sprint then forget carbon!
If you're 16.5stone and put out around
1800-2000 watts in a sprint then forget carbon!
as another ex hwt rower I'd suggest that you should forget any frame material lasting...
Yep but I'm 44 and my best years are far behind me!
that makes it even harder on the bike!
If you're 16.5stone and put out around 1800-2000 watts in a sprint then forget carbon!
And the unsubstantiated nonsense continues!
I did wonder. a quick Google suggests Boonen can do about 1600w in a sprint.
to be fair, as a rower I suspect the figure being given is for a rowing machine which iirc is higher than cycling because of arm and back power being included more effectively.
furthermore Chris Hoy can apparently do 2300w though presumably only for his 200m sprint.
Maybe my powertap was faulty. 3 club sunday winter rides, untrained just getting back on the bike after a 3 month layoff and, 1500 ish, 1700 ish and 1800 ish watts peak power. The WKO software told me I was still crap, I didn't have the time to ride before or afterward due to work, so I sold it.
Will post pictures of my Colnago Extreme Power broken frameset.Big chain ring up a small 7% incline in a pace line and bang. Windwave said they have only seen it before due to crashes. I'm sorry this was done on power. Guess why I bought an Extreme Power.
To say I'm p155ed would be an understatement. The Colnago frame, club discount, cost me £2.2k, hardly used and the Giant £1600 for 72hrs of XC, although I do have the components.
do you have a picture of your crack
you have my sympathies but that's why I never buy frames that I can't or don't want to pay to replace... ime expensive frames don't last longer. quite the opposite.
post of the day to compositepro. 🙂
Hmmm. I'm dubious of your PowerTap; unfit on a winter club run you put out 1800w?
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I had problem with Isaac and Treks so I thought the Colnago EPS was the way forward. I have a custom TI now from Burls, hence the Colnago frame sits in my home office. I'm not prepared to pay £450 for it to be repaired by Colnago.
The crack in the seat tube was on my Trek Top Fuel. I've had this since Jan 2008 so to be honest it done well.
The only one of those pics I can figure out is an alu frame, which looks to have broken because you didn't have enough seatpost in? Relevance? 😕
Wrong! I run 410mm seat Thompson posts. The frame is a 21.5in Trek. There is 270mm of post showing so there is 140mm in the frame. I have a 6ft 8in rowing buddy who rides a EX version. Now that is some seat post. Trek have changed this frame.
Colnago (Yes I am decorating). The break is on the drive side seat stay
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On a roll now that I've set up a Flickr account. Madone BB break. 6 month old frame.
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I get the Giant back on Wednesday so will post some more pictures. Hope you can feel my frustration being vented.............
As I have posted before, I have three carbon frames break during use, a 2006, 2008 and 2009 model year of basically the same FS design. All were replaced under a lifetime warranty. In the first two cases it was a bonding issue- Aluminium/carbon and a carbon/carbon respectively. These were almost certainly manufacturing defects (the second failed after only 35 miles use). The third cracked around the seat tube suspension pivot point. I was told by the LBS who dealt with the claim that I had been 'unlucky' to have these failures and they were willing to give me another carbon frame but I was not happy so they essentially gave me the value of the frame against a new complete aluminium bike- can't fault the warranty.
I now believe that the design was not utilising the material effectively and would be much happier with a modern carbon frame, particularly a hardtail
just about to get my first carbon framed bike.. you haven't put me off!
Just had the LBS on the phone saying the bike has been inspected and that Giant are not going to support a warranty claim.
so how does that work with the lifetime warranty to original owner ?
warranty doesn't cover everything - by the sounds of it they're blaming the components that have been changed and the way it's been used. Not necessarily reasonable but one of those things that happens a lot...
njee20 - MemberThe only one of those pics I can figure out is an alu frame, which looks to have broken because you didn't have enough seatpost in? Relevance?
Wrong, njee - I've broken frames in exactly the same place with loads of post in. It's a common weak point for big riders.
I don't know.
The LBS mentioned:
Seat post. Not original. I think the original was 375mm length and I put a 410mm Thompson in. They didn't think the bike fitted me with the original post. I rode it for 3 months with the "Kore" post. I was not outside the range with this post. They reckon the longer post was a possible cause. Thus the bike has been modified away from OEM as a result of the seatpost change.
Saddle - Outside the scope on the rails. This is grasping at straws.
They have found other cracks which indicate to them that I've been jumping / abusing the bike. Considering I have different MTBs for different disciplince this is unfounded. This bike is for lycra only!
I really need to see Giant's report (happy to post on the forum - I've nothing to hide).
You can appreciate the above has been relayed to me via the LBS.
pjm - worth pursuing with the LBS and Giant, not perhaps fully on here ? I sense there are often solutions to these problems which are best not stuck on t'interweb
The colnago is the stay joining bolt its a simple ream and reset 450 quid must be the Italian premium tax but theyre off their Italian black Ferrari rocking horse it's no where near
How did giant find other cracks?
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I've posted details of the the repair before, but for those who haven't seen it have a look here http://andrewhowett.blogspot.com/2012/01/mending-carbon-frame.html
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Not sure a repair to a hole like that would be as easy on aluminium.
And I wrote off a magnesium frame this weekend (maybe, need to see about getting the BB shell re-threaded)
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The first race on this repaired frame will be the midlands race on 19th. Hopefully no problems.
Colnago want to repaint the whole frame and forks. £450 for one side to be repaired / £550 for both to be done. As a matter of course I would have both sides done. The problem is it's like for like repair.
I replaced my Trek Madone (5yrs and retire)this time last year with a custom Burls TI frame and very, very x1000 pleased with this. Super stiff , super comfortable. Built for my size / strength. So in a nutshell I would rather buy another custom Burls then have the Colnago repaired considering I will only run carbon for 5years
I don't know and very interested. I was advised that it was inspected today by 3 "Giant" experts who came to the conclusion above.
The Giant frame still rides very well, super stiff with no creaking at all. Will post pictures when I get the bike back.
I got someone round my head thst mskrd it good. I hutrr yout fasscinatinf hrsd. you good/bsd
ha ha funny. mskrs me look loke foreign bsd perrson
there you go guys I have nothing useful to say
haha that'ds quite funny and makes me interesting!
Update:
Giant first response (dropped the bike didn't fit me from the report) - extreme forces causing the cracks as a result of a bad landing off a jump and the combination of a Thompson layback seat post.
Giant has now dropped this, not surprising, including the layback seatpost because the OEM post was layback, to:
We have no record of being contacted regarding this issue until last week and from speaking to Mark today the decision to continue to ride this not knowing the extent of any damage was yours and Giant take no responsibility for any further damage to the bike as a result of this.
If there were to be the slightest chance of damage to the frame then this should have been brought to our attention before this time and you should have ceased riding until such time as the bike had been inspected.From the findings of our inspection due to the alternative seatpost fitment and the nature of the damage to the frame this would not be covered under the terms and conditions of the warranty.
As a gesture of goodwill I can look in to the option of a replacement frame at a reduced cost, if you would like me to look into this further let me know and I’ll speak to your dealer regarding this.
So if you're riding a Giant and have a paint scratch or chip, it needs to go back to these guys for inspection. I took mine to the local LBS, Mark, and we agreed to monitor it. And don't change the seat post.
Anyone want to guess what the third response holds?