So can i make my bike shorter? A shorter 35mm stem (to replacer the 42.5mm stem on there), more spacers under the stem?
All of that lifts your weight off the front wheel, so you'll still have to consciously weight the front, possibly more so. You will have a better view and be able to pop the front wheel more easily though.
you could play with pure bar height - worth a watch of this from 13 mins.
yeah, i think you are right.
I appreciate your feedback tho, it is putting my mind to rest with regards to ‘sizing down’. Or rather adding more food for thought…. Raaw Madonna… mmmmm 🙂
There’s a whopping hole in the Raaw Madonna range too - 455 up to 480. Chainstays look fairly balanced against reach. It’s a lot of bike though - imagine more than a V1 Megatower to ride.
Madonna has longer chainstays and wheelbase size for size - also has a much higher stack.
Wonder if it’s worth a look at the Privateer 141 or 161 too? P2 in the 141 is 465mm reach and P2 in the 161 is 470mm reach so in the right ballpark
If you can wait a few weeks you can try a 141 in a P2 and the Slayer
I appreciate your feedback tho, it is putting my mind to rest with regards to ‘sizing down’. Or rather adding more food for thought…. Raaw Madonna… mmmmm
The Madonna if you stayed size for size would be a really big bike for you, even with a shorter ETT. As context, I have a V2.2 which is my holiday/big race bike in a L & i’m considerably taller than you. As a race bike, I accept its a bit smaller than I would usually ride, for the trade off of some stability, to have more agility.
It is an easy bike to get on and ride fast though, and the primary reason for having it was reliability, which it showed recently. I did 2 weeks abroad & over 30,000m of descending & literally didn’t touch it. Came home, hosed it off, lubed the chain & it’s ready for the next one.
The Privateer would be a more budget version, but I ride with a few people who have ridden for them, or still do & no-one is overly complimentary of how they actually ride.
So can i make my bike shorter? A shorter 35mm stem (to replacer the 42.5mm stem on there), more spacers under the stem?
All of that lifts your weight off the front wheel, so you’ll still have to consciously weight the front, possibly more so. You will have a better view and be able to pop the front wheel more easily though.
This is true, though with a higher bar and the bars being further behind the F axle you might find it easier to shift your weight fwd by moving your hips fwd rather than leaning lower and fwd. We do think of front wheel weighting as something that comes from our upper body lean and arms but I think that's because the bike positioning leans us forward anyway. You can only go so high at the front before the wheel just feels too far away in a corner, but I did find a higher bar and weighting from the hips and staying more upright a useful technique to learn.
I’m 5’9” and currently on a bike with a 465 reach, which I’ve always thought is a bit too much. After chatting to Propain, I’ve ordered a Tyee in medium, with a 450 reach and I’m very much looking forward to trying it as it “may” be my sweet spot 🙂
How is that going to work? Short stems don’t make the wheelbase shorter.
You can apply more force to an object that is closer to your center of gravity.
A shorter front centre would be most effective but not many options for that.
Glad to see people mention balanced reach v chainstay length though. Was only a few years ago where reviewers were suggesting longer reach was the answer to getting more front end grip!
There’s a whopping hole in the Raaw Madonna range too – 455 up to 480. Chainstays look fairly balanced against reach. It’s a lot of bike though – imagine more than a V1 Megatower to ride.
its strange how there can be such size jumps. I always think of the Madonna as a big bike, but in reality its the same travel as a megatower. I guess the extra weight would be felt. Its all brain farts at the moment 🙂
The Madonna if you stayed size for size would be a really big bike for you, even with a shorter ETT. As context, I have a V2.2 which is my holiday/big race bike in a L & i’m considerably taller than you
I would go for a medium if i did, as you say, large would be too big for me. Good to get some real world feedback on the Madonna tho.
I’m 5’9” and currently on a bike with a 465 reach, which I’ve always thought is a bit too much. After chatting to Propain, I’ve ordered a Tyee in medium, with a 450 reach and I’m very much looking forward to trying it as it “may” be my sweet spot
very interesting. When is the Propain due? Would love some feedback.
Its incredible that one manufacturer can differ so much from the next!
I went through a lot of good bigger bikes and settled on the optic in size large @6ft back in 2020. I have still tried to find a better bike and actually for Tweed Valley riding I do not think in my case there is a better bike. Yes it has 125mm rear travel but it is a DH shock. It is a really fast bike. Climbs really really well and down the hill there are few bikes that can match it tbh. Super rough tracks or a long day out you maybe will be a bit more battered but for the speed and ride feel I have not found a bike close to it that makes me smile so much. Just a pity no support and not many around. I had my original C2 stolen then picked up a frame only ebay special and built it back up. I have a pretty good bike fleet of newer longer travel bikes and most cases I will pick the Optic for group rides or riding with ebikes.
If you're looking at the Raaw Madonna and money is a consideration, I'd also consider the Bird Aeris 9 (with the Formula Mod coil shock they offer).
It's got a pretty chonky aluminium frame that feels bombproof and really well designed. You can also get an optional linkage for 180mm travel).
And if you had the means to keep something like that AND the Optic, you'd have a nicely complimentary pair of bikes.
@lightfighter762 - i totally agree, the Optic is such a good package. And had i not ridden something shorter, i dont think this conversation would be happening!
@chakaping - good shout, and a much better chance of testing one or at least sitting on one.
In an ideal world i would keep the optic and maybe tailor it more to 'down country' type riding.... AKA longer distance stuff, XC bimbles etc.
I'm 5'11 and went from a V1 Hightower to a Cotic Jeht. Big increase in reach. It felt weird for a few rides but then i settled into it. I was unsure of any real world benefits until i went back on a V1 Hightower and it felt horrid in comparison.
YMMV
@chakaping – good shout, and a much better chance of testing one or at least sitting on one.
Yeah I think they have demo bikes in Swinley, Hamsterley & the Highlands?
Or drop me a line if you're in NW England.
But maybe a better option right now is the Nukeproof Mega frame with EXT shock that CRC are selling for £1,900. Unbelievably they are still showing in stock.
@v7fmp the Tyee should arrive in the first two weeks of January, then I need to get it invisiframed and built up. Then it will be getting some vigorous testing 🙂
@v7fmp, the Propain Tyee finally arrived and it’s now built up and hitting the trails. Despite my concerns that the medium and 450 reach would be a bit too short, it turns out that the sizing couldn’t feel more perfect. Bike design obviously matters, but even with heavy duty tyres and inserts, it’s a seriously poppy and manoeuvrable bike in this size for me (176cm / 5’9”). Still stable too. Defies logic a bit. I’m running a 48mm stem and 38mm rise bars, neither of which I plan to change in the immediate future.
The formula MOD coil is an awesome bit of kit too, turns 8ft plus drops into silky smooth landings 🙂 I should probably stick its own thread up!
i just replied to your NBD thread.
Interesting that you find it a really good fit.
I have sat on a few bikes recently, which i know isnt an exact science, but the difference in reach feels quite substantial.
Had a car park bounce on a mates Vitus Sommet, which in a medium has a 445mm reach i think.... the handle bars felt on my knees when standing up!?!
See i find that weird... mine is about 449mm reach and i'm 6'0 and absolutely love it... My Trek was 475mm and again i wasn't unhappy with it... but the Slayer feels a bit more 'right'
My lads P2 PRivateer 141 also, feels spot on for me. Although i don't get to use it lol
I find handlebar width significantly affects how short a given bike feels.
ie wide bars can make a bike with a shorter reach feel fine.
Yeah i think bars are a massively interesting one. I kinda ballsed up slightly recently and trimmed a set too much, with the DMR Deathgrips adding 5-8mm at the end they're coming in about 775mm... I went back to a set that came as standard on the Slayer yesterday which are closer to 800mm all in and feel a lot nicer.
It definitely doesn’t feel short and there is loads of room on the bike to move around. My old BBB was about the same reach and that felt much shorter. Putting it next to my friends Santa Cruz of yesteryear in XL, it’s about the same as that length wise… Propain have a UK demo centre now and you’re always welcome to try mine if you are ever around here. 🙂
Folk IMO focus too much on height rather than leg length vs upper body.
I'm long legged for my height and consequently have the saddle very high which means that I've usually plenty of 'reach' AKA top-tube.
In the past it was easy, just get an XL for the length of the seat tube & stack - and suffer with bars way below my saddle.
I rode a LLS Cotic and not only was it the first bike I felt was in my 'size' but I actually bought a large (after back-to-back testing an L vs XL - thanks Sam). I run a long dropper, plenty of stack (50mm spacers and 40mm risers) and the saddle well forward. It pedals well plus plenty of room for descending means it's perfect for the Scottish off-piste where it spends most of its time.
I recently bought an eBike too, ended up with a Specialized in S4 - not the largest size but set up just as per my Cotic. And I had an extensive demo (actually hired it) on my local trails (Golfie) so could play around with it.
Lesson? These things aren't cheap, so worth spending a bit of time/cash to get the right one - and then once you've got it, play with it.
“Folk IMO focus too much on height rather than leg length vs upper body.”
This is so true!
However, what you’ve said is really about seated position - effective top tube length at your actual saddle height.
Once the saddle is down and you’re in attack/ready/boss/whatever position then a rider with longer legs / shorter torso ends up with their hips further back because of their longer femurs, and shoulders further back relative to their hips because of their shorter torso. And that means they fit better on a bike with shorter reach.
I had a cotic rocket that I really struggled to weight the front wheel, I tried loads of things to fix it. Dropping bar height was an obvious one to get more weight on the front. I only recently heard the downtime podcast with Si where he mentions bar height and the consequence of bar height being too low... Basically to weight the front wheel with bars being too low, you end up hunching over the wheel and pushing your bum out, which effectively pushes your centre of gravity back.
Bit of a light bulb moment for me, where your hands are isn't directly relevant to weight on the front wheel (unless you are mega aggressive), it's more a combination of front centre length and hip position. Obviously length of arms, torso, pedals type, bar sweep/rise all effect where the hips are.
The other thing is that riser bars are not the same as extra spacers under your stem. Extra spacers increase height but reduce reach, where riser bars increase height with no effect on reach.
Shorter stem along with more swept back bars work well on LLS bikes. Also try adding a spacer or two to help lift the bars, this should help with maneuverability.
I'd also get the shock serviced and maybe get some custom tuning to try to achieve a similar feel to the Hightower.
Another thing I noticed when I first got my Hello Dave was that it required more aggressive steering to get the most from it. More of bossing the bike more than just being a passenger. I noticed the same thing when I went from 26" to 29" wheels, probably why it can be hard going back once you're used to it, also probably a reason why I just bought a angleset set headset for my xc bike.
