Advice for re-inventing a MTB club

I was a member of an MTB club when I moved here. They seem to be very clicky affairs, you're either one of them or you're not. Just joined one here in Congleton and first impressions are much more positive. You need good ride leaders, people who can ride with all abilities. Can't say much about registering with BC/CUK etc. Membership costs, well I'd say it needs to be enough for people to commit, but be affordable and attractive. Whar the are members going to get back from their membership? If it's just lead rides then the appeal wears off quickly. Good luck.

Pro's of joining a national organisation are for insurance purposes to cover leaders and club activities.

Which probably means you have to change some membership to cover that cost.

Not too many communication channels for rides, confuses people and they miss stuff. Club I'm in has Facebook for roadie rides e-mail for club business, WhatsApp for off-road and probably other things for different sub-groups I'm not aware of. Doesn't work properly.

Our local group - Dorset Rough Riders - are quite popular and might be one to look at for ideas or pop over the county border and chat to?

About Us - (dorsetroughriders.co.uk)

I'm not a member myself but see them in the pub occasionally and they seem a decent bunch.

Cons of joining national body (but personally I don't think they are cons) - you need to be more organised with route planning and risk assessments...on the off chance something happens and you get taken to court.

I don't think this is a bad thing myself and I've never had to use it or rely on it but given how easy it is for people to now sue someone else for their inability to make a sensible decision themselves, then it make sense to be prepared.

A club is a great way of having something that focuses on stuff - it needs proactive members and people organising stuff to really make it work, but when it does it is brilliant (and it doesn't need to be onerous or difficult).

Trying to do something similar but I'm finding almost all the people aren't that bothered about it - seem happy to be in the club but also happy doing their own thing in their own wee groups, so I think some planned away days might get a few people interested a bit more.

In the New Year I will be trying to create a group down here - as the Tuesday Night Group seems to have dissipated.
I would only ever try to create a loose 'casual" group - and never a formal club - I think that is when it gets cliquey.
Last time I tried to do it, the local Eeb shop muscled in and took it over - and actively excluded non-eebers 🙁

Of the 2 national bodies my vote would be for CUK as they do more for access than the "Pot-Hunters" at BC. (Though BC are needed if anyone plans on organising a race through the club).

hard to acheive but...

I think it needs a decent number of a) people and b) rides.
If its one ride a week, with ten members where 4 might show up on any given day, is where you will find cliques develop, it just becomes a friend group that is unwelcoming to new joiners and also very easy for it to peter out if the obvious leader can't make it. Plus everyone needs to want to do the exact same thing.

Take a policy on ebikes (whatever it is) and stick to it.

The ease of communication for club members (either through facebook or whatsapp) has also been biggest 'negative'. A closed facebook group and whatsapp group for organising rides put barriers in place for attracting new members or those that don't have a facebook account. To attract new members it's important to publicise rides in a non closed way or at least have a meetup place and time that is regular and can be relied upon for riders to be there. When it's all in private groups then even a very active club with lots of members can look a bit dead with nothing going on.

Although despite that - it sounds like the club chairperson should stand aside rather than unilaterally deciding to close the club!

I'd agree that joining a national body entails cost and commitment to route planning and risk assessments, but in return the liability cover and wider support available is worth it.

As off road non racers, maybe look at Cycling UK rather than BC. There may even be a local CTC group you can piggyback from.

Try and keep communication through one or two channels, our club uses Strava, FB and a Team app. Ride leaders have no idea how many will turn up to warn cafes.

"Clubs" work if there enough people willing to sacrifice some of their riding time to lead groups riding at a "lower" level. All roadie clubs hit this problem. Start off with some beginners, they get fitter and faster so the rides do likewise to cater for them, then no one wants to drop back down and lead the next group of beginners who show up and need to start at 10 miles at 8 miles an hour. We have roughly 10% of members nominally ride leading, and there is a rota for them to lead the weekly beginners ride - big club, so maybe twice a year.

Goes without saying, but "no drop rides" mean "no drop". Encourage and support newbies or those having a bad day. Be the support you wish you'd had.

The social aspect makes a club - cafe and pub rides. Be nice to cafe staff and landlords. A group of 10 is an easy £50-75 for them, but work with them on timing your arrival, not leaving a mess, please and thank yous, makes a huge difference and will get your club a good wider reputation.

Talk nicely to LBSs and see if you can get a discount, raffle prizes, maintenance classes (especially trail side maintenance sessions, really a confidence boost. Ladies only maintenance sessions are always popular)

If your local trails would allow it, talk to your local council about offering a "cycle for health" scheme. The council may be able to support ride leader training, first aid courses. Our club support the local one, can have up to 50 out on a summers evening in different groups from 6-15 miles. Still getting 20 now it's dark and wet, and usually 50/50 split male/female. And a lot train up to help lead these rides.

("We" are Ilkeston Cycle Club. Founded 2017, by a group of guys who had a Chatterday ride at 6am Saturday mornings so they could be home in time to run kids to football and dancing etc. Mainly road oriented but at least 2 off road rides a week. Now over 400 members, from casual bimblers to international age group racers. Cycling Weekly club of the year 2021(?). We're on FB and Strava, probably some online articles about us on Cycling Weekly

Happy to answer questions or find someone who can!)

Yeah, forgot to post the pros of joining a national body...I'm all for that.
Start small, try to offer 2 or 3 regular rides and just keep promoting as word of mouth will bring people in.

Although despite that – it sounds like the club chairperson should stand aside rather than unilaterally deciding to close the club!

Oh that's quite common - the "original(s)" who set up the Judean Mountain Bikers club up now decide they don't like all these newcomers and this new tech and they're no longer the fastest / best / most experienced riders on the block so they get peeved and have a toys/pram moment before going off to create the Mountain Bikers of Judea club...

Needs a regular meeting point with enough people that there'll always (or almost always) be someone going out regardless. Membership fees is always a total hassle to administer and you start needing a club finance officer and various safeguarding / accounting stuff if you want to demonstrate that the funds are going to worthwhile causes and not your pocket. I'm not saying they're bad at all but be aware that it's a lot of time and effort to chase up so it needs to be worth it. If it's £1 then it's not worth chasing; if it's £60 then people won't pay it (unless they're getting something back from it).

Joining BC / CUK is worthwhile from an admin point of view because they have various club templates, advice on things like safeguarding, insurance, membership and legals - the boring stuff that people hate to think about but which needs to be done when it becomes more than just half a dozen mates meeting up for a ride.

Ultimately it depends on what you want the rides to be about?

We have a very successful Wednesday night ride thats been going 10+ years
Theres a set place/time to meet every week. Its just a casual turn up when you want, and theres always someone to ride with.
Its always been an "open for all" ride, but we've set a minimum level of skills required. People then know what they are getting into, and if somethings a bit 'spicy' we'll let new people what to look out for.
Theres no ride leader as such, with it being up to the group to decide on route, and everyone to make there own assessment of there ability/conditions.

Ultimately is a group of mates going for a ride and bants.

I'd stay well clear of affiliating yourself with British cycling/Cycling UK.
Far too much red tape and will suck fun away from everything, as there becomes 101 reasons not to do something.
You'd have to remove 95% of our riding to make it compliant with all of the various rules...

Cons of joining national body (but personally I don’t think they are cons) – you need to be more organised with route planning and risk assessments…on the off chance something happens and you get taken to court.

I’d stay well clear of affiliating yourself with British cycling/Cycling UK.
Far too much red tape and will suck fun away from everything, as there becomes 101 reasons not to do something.
You’d have to remove 95% of our riding to make it compliant with all of the various rules…

Can anyone expand on these?
Ride with a club, can often end up leading on some rides purely by virtue of being one of the faster ones and actually knowing my way round the local woods in the dark, rather due to any specific skill or training.

I guess it depends what the purpose of the club is - is it to promote and populate group rides or is it to facilitate people riding. IMO too many clubs are mainly about the former. If you can't make the specific dates, times and locations or... you just don't enjoy the company of some of the regulars (we've all been there) the club will just twist itself into a tight click.

IMO mountain bike suits a more open 'club' - a virtual depository of local routes and current ride conditions. A place to post your ride intentions in case anyone fancies joining you. A forum or closed fb group. Maybe a tie up with a local shop with evening workshops or demo days. A pub meet up every now and again - possibly with a talk linked to the mental health theme. Then every now and again a group ride or team trip to a far flung centre. Basically a setup that means that people who either can't or don't want to be on a regular group ride don't feel too fringe. Which in itself means they'll be more encouraged to make the effort and get along to one ever now and again.

Can anyone expand on these?

If you were affiliated you would have to nominate a ride leader
They would have to be appropriately qualified to lead a ride
That person would have to carry out risk assessments, carry the appropriate kit and stick to legal tracks/trails, etc..

If I said to you you could only lead rides if you took the time/responsibility to become a qualified leader, you'd probably not bother?

Pro’s of joining a national organisation are for insurance purposes to cover leaders and club activities.

IIRC last time I looked at BC insurance, the club insurance only covered the committee members whilst carrying out their duties. Ride leaders weren't covered by the club policy.

If you were affiliated you would have to nominate a ride leader
They would have to be appropriately qualified to lead a ride
That person would have to carry out risk assessments, carry the appropriate kit and stick to legal tracks/trails, etc..

does the "ride leader" need to be the person at the front picking the route?

I hope "appropriate kit" is based on the anticipated ride and not an all encompassing MTB kitlist? If someone says I need to take a backpack with an emergency shelter and an epirb for two hours round the woods in the home counties then I am quitting group rides for good.

Most MTB clubs won't have the size to offer different levels of ride, so it's best to accept that and not try and be all things to all riders. If your core group are experienced riders who want to do a solid 3 hour night ride, for example, then that's what the ride should look like. Whatever it is it gives the ride an identity, which can be sustained, and people will either take or leave it.

Experience is more relevant than fitness or skill - differing pace and ability can always be accommodated within reason, but inexperience  and / or general spannerish approach to bike and kit can cause problems out on the moors in bad weather.

If you were affiliated you would have to nominate a ride leader
They would have to be appropriately qualified to lead a ride
That person would have to carry out risk assessments, carry the appropriate kit and stick to legal tracks/trails, etc..

Define 'have to'...

Most MTB clubs won’t have the size to offer different levels of ride, so it’s best to accept that and not try and be all things to all riders.

Our club has 4 regular days. 2 evenings, and the weekend.
Some weeks there will be multiple options on some days. Plus the occasional away day or weekender.
Nobody does all 4 regularly. Some have rides they always do, others can and do flit between as and how it suits their commitments/fitness etc.

If you were affiliated you would have to nominate a ride leader

it seems to me that if there is any type of “club” rather than just group of mates riding together then there is always a leader.  They may not have been nominated, they may deny they were in control but the court may disagree.

They would have to be appropriately qualified to lead a ride

AFAIR qualification to be a ride leader wasn’t particularly onerous, would you really want someone incompetent in charge?

That person would have to carry out risk assessments, carry the appropriate kit

we all conduct risk assessments all the time.  The difference is they might have to do it in a structured way and record the findings.  Really though once you have done one MTB risk assessment for a particular type of terrain you have something to reuse.  In outdoor activities there’s lots of emphasis on dynamic RA on the day rather than paperwork for every possible scenario.

why would you want to ride with a club that doesn’t carry appropriate kit.

and stick to legal tracks/trails, etc..

that may be more of an issue (I live in the part of the country where essentially everywhere is legal) but is there actually a rule that says a BC or CUK club cannot ride on any route that is not 100% ok?  Or is that a myth that’s grown from nowhere?

If I said to you you could only lead rides if you took the time/responsibility to become a qualified leader, you’d probably not bother?

And yet lots of people do!  For some it provides the framework for them to feel confident.  Would you want to lead a ride if there was no framework to support you?  In many cases a little bit of structure makes very experienced riders think about what to do if something goes wrong rather than just wing it, and means leaders can learn from others experience before they go. As an inexperienced rider would you want to ride with a club where the ride leaders have had no training or selection process?

They may not have been nominated, they may deny they were in control but the court may disagree.

That makes it sound like there is a legal definition of a "ride leader" with responsibilities defined in law - neither of which is the case.

If children are involved, you might get wrapped up in Duty of Care legislation, but with adults there's bugger all applicable legislation...

I’d stay well clear of affiliating yourself with British cycling/Cycling UK.
Far too much red tape and will suck fun away from everything, as there becomes 101 reasons not to do something.
You’d have to remove 95% of our riding to make it compliant with all of the various rules…

A lot of this got alluded to in the long running (and quite argumentative) [url= https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/from-dangerous-sport-to-fun-activity-reframing-mountain-biking/ ]Reframing MTBing[/url] thread.

The problem is that for some areas (notably membership fees, riding with youths) having at least the basics of a framework and recognition becomes quite important. People (not unreasonably) want some sort of assurance that any membership fees they're paying are going to the good of the club, not the self-appointed club captain's upgrade funds for example.

I admit, you don't necessarily need any form of club to manage that, it's just that within registering a club there is that pre-built framework to help out with that. It doesn't mean you have to have endless committee meetings or risk assess every root on every trail but they can be helpful from an admin point of view.

Experience is more relevant than fitness or skill – differing pace and ability can always be accommodated within reason, but inexperience and / or general spannerish approach to bike and kit can cause problems out on the moors in bad weather.

Which is starting to get into quite subjective areas...
I don't disagree with the sentiment but who takes the responsibility of saying "you're not coming out cos your bike looks like it's falling to bits / you don't have the right clothing..."? ANd that's where having a Ride Leader with at least the basic skillset to be able to deal with that saves everyone from a load of hassle.

I hope “appropriate kit” is based on the anticipated ride and not an all encompassing MTB kitlist? If someone says I need to take a backpack with an emergency shelter and an epirb for two hours round the woods in the home counties then I am quitting group rides for good.

it will be based on the risk assessment you’ve undertaken and informed by the training/guidelines provided by the club/GB.  Nobody will expect you to carry an epirb.  The need for shelter will be determined by location, weather forecast, likely time to get help etc.  A ride in the Home Counties in august more likely to consider sunscreen than emergency shelter - but if you are riding this week with ambulance strikes a shelter might make sense.  Nobody will be auditing your rucksack to check you are doing it right - any “issues” would come after an incident.  Those issues will not disappear just because you weren’t under the auspices of a GB, an aggrieved party is likely to suggest you were negligent by avoiding the GB in the first place!

It really depends on who the club attracts. It only takes one or two more "self orientated" riders to make a club unwelcoming to new riders. I'm in a club and its quite **** free. We are lucky.

My thoughts would be. Keep its simple. Regular rides that are of consistently the same standard so people know whats coming. Be very clear about what is club activity and what is 'friends within the club activity". The club should welcome everyone but that doesn't mean that fitter riders cant do their own thing outside of the club, but be clear that it is not a club ride otherwise people feel excluded. Keep it about the riding, thats what people are there for - don't try to overreach into too many social or non bike things as the numbers drop very quickly.

an aggrieved party is likely to suggest you were negligent by avoiding the GB in the first place!

But if they were an adult, they would be expected to be largely responsible for themselves as in they are free to stop and turn back at any point they don't feel comfortable. The ride leader isn't automatically at fault for everything that happens on the ride.

– Pros/cons of charging membership fees and alternative approaches to dealing with money (sponsorship?)
– Good name ideas for a club – particularly one that has an interest in people’s mental health

In terms of a club name focussing on MH. I’d avoid mentioning MH unless really convinced it will help in some way. Whilst the world is much more open and accepting about MH these days I’m not sure everyone with MH challenges wants to be “labelled” as such by being part of a club that says it in the name. I also suspect you may be trying to appeal to people who aren’t diagnosed with MH issues but who just need to escape life for a bit? I think you will put some (a lot?) of them off if it seems to be labelled as something they don’t identify with.

why would you want to ride with a club that doesn’t carry appropriate kit.

So what is appropriate to expect from the point of view of the club member that his/her leader will carry?

A tube for every size, a quicklink for every groupset, snacks for the whole group?

Dont get me wrong, I'm not wanting to be elitist here. We all started somewhere. I remember snapping my chain on a group ride. I was unaware this was a potential failure mode. I could fit and remove a chain myself, and had the quicklink and breaker at home. Never considered it could break while riding. Luckily someone else was able to assist.

Your first winter in the wet and mud, your first night ride? I learnt from the club/group/friends how to do all that, I'm greatful for it and happy to pass that on. Apart from "this ride starts in the daylight but ends after sunset so you need lights" its not the sort of thing to have been explicitly stated before the ride.

Biggest snag may be that most people will ask "what do I get?" not "what can I offer? It will be a chicken and egg situation. To get enough people to organise you need a large membership which is hard to get without organised events. No organised events then why have a club?
Do you need a club even? In an area where everone can get on their bike and go out with their mates you may struggle unless you offer something more.
Avoid a youth involvement unless you have the adults in place and committed otherwise you become a baby sitting service.

why would you want to ride with a club that doesn’t carry appropriate kit.

I've never ridden with a club where I've expected anyone to carry anything for me or on my behalf. I just expect everyone to carry all their own tools / pump / spares. In case of genuine mistakes, I'll offer up a tube (someone the other week punctured and went to grab his pump etc only to find he hadn't moved anything over to his winter bike, we all had a good laugh then gave him all he needed). But if you've turned up with nought intentionally, you can push your bike home if you puncture - be a good lesson learned.

But if they were an adult, they would be expected to be largely responsible for themselves as in they are free to stop and turn back at any point they don’t feel comfortable.

Expected by who?  By you as the ride leader - ok fair enough, you’ll have made that clear at the start (you were going to do a briefing to ensure everyone knew the plan anyway?) and in any pre-ride advertising?  Now that’s great but if it’s a club led ride and you’ve led me to the middle of a forest and I decide to bail what expectation / obligation do you think the club or its ride leader have to making sure that I can find my way safely back to the start (or other sensible place?).

The ride leader isn’t automatically at fault for everything that happens on the ride.

you are correct, and the law will 100% agree with you.  However, people who go riding and get hurt aren’t always the most pragmatic minded people.  Just because you aren’t at fault doesn’t mean they can’t try to make a claim you are.  One of the obvious starting questions for their ambulance chasing lawyers will be “was the leader following best practice”.  You are off to a bad start if the answer is “well they weren’t part of the recognised governing bodies, hadn’t got any training in leading rides and didn’t have any documentation about the risks”…

the skills needed to be a good ride leader and skills needed to be a good rider are totally different.  That will be obvious to anyone giving it more than a moment’s thought and so might leave you open to claims of negligence if say: you take people beyond their ability; you haven’t planned for forseable emergencies; you didn’t give the people you were leading enough information about the risks for them (with their level of skills and knowledge) to make informed judgements themselves; etc.  that doesn’t mean they’ll win a case - but even the threat of a case is a hassle and stress that would make joining the GB, doing the training and some paperwork seem trivial.

Expected by who?

Assuming all adults - as it is very different with minors.

You're earlier post implied (intentionally or otherwise) that there was a legal definition of 'ride leader' with legally defined responsibilities. There isn't.

So any expectations anyone has as to how responsible the leader is towards them are mainly a figment of their own imagination unless the ride leader has said otherwise. Even then, as it is a non contractual situation (which most clubs are as you don't pay the guide to be guided per ride), the members of the group don't have any legally defined relationship with the leader, so contract law doesn't apply and there is no directly applicable statute in this situation (not a work environment, so H&S legislation doesn't apply etc).

Which begs the question what responsibility does the leader have in legal terms - probably no more than a passing stranger.

If I said to you you could only lead rides if you took the time/responsibility to become a qualified leader, you’d probably not bother?

A lot of people don't, and it's a big sticking point.

But if you "organise" a ride, under any suggestion that it's a club rather than a group of mates* and someone gets injured and decides to sue you for the lifetime of 24/7 care they may need, you'll wish you'd trained and got liability cover.

* and the facts will be decided by the judge, not what a group of us on a forum think.

Which begs the question what responsibility does the leader have in legal terms – probably no more than a passing stranger.

You might want to do some research on the tort of negligence. You owe a duty of care to everyone, whatever you do, wherever you do it. That duty of care increases the minute you organise something and invite others along. That's why you have car insurance, personal liability cover on your house insurance etc

Anyway, on a more positive spin, as you've talked about the mental health aspect of the activities, some people get a buzz out of "helping" or "giving back". Trash free trails is an obvious one.

A group of you might be able to link up with Sustrans, Forestry Commission or some other local land owner and help with litter picking, bridleway clearing, brush cutting. Also a good way to improve the groups image with the public/ramblers/owners of the woods (delete as necessary)

decided by the judge

which is a potential worry - someone whose closest wilderness experience is slicing into the rough on the 12th hole - is making a decision.

You might want to do some research on the tort of negligence. You owe a duty of care to everyone, whatever you do, wherever you do it.

And yet under English common law there is no criminal liability for failing to act in the event of another person being in danger (exceptions apply eg a contractual or statutory duty to actor you caused the situation in the first place).

It's a genuine question by the way, everyone bands around 'you must do this', 'you must do that' and yet every time I go looking for the 'why' or 'else this will happen to you' I come up completely blank...

decided by the judge

which is a potential worry

Yes and no, Judges ability to make their own decisions is quite limited and we have a hierarchy of courts which allows judgements to be challenged and re-examined by more senior judges.

It’s a genuine question by the way, everyone bands around ‘you must do this’, ‘you must do that’ and yet every time I go looking for the ‘why’ or ‘else this will happen to you’ I come up completely blank…

Yep - this came up in the Reframing MTB thread too, the perception / threat / concern that somehow everyone you interact with out in the wilds is looking to sue or to blame you for something - anything - that has happened.

Reality is that 99.9% of MTB rides are perfectly fine and so unremarkable that the most impact it'll make is a few likes on Instagram.

So what? …I’d love to hear:
– Any advice about what works/doesn’t work well for MTB clubs

Be welcoming. Engage, talk, promote, get involved.
That needs to apply for everyone, it can't be just one person organising and promoting the rides, it has to be a collective involvement. Doesn't need rotas and ride leaders and committees (necessarily), it just needs some commitment.
A road club I knew had basically one guy running the whole lot (initially as promotion for his cafe business) but it got to the point where people would be following his wheel around the lanes, they'd get back and bugger off without buying any coffee and cake or (worse still) they'd clog up the entire cafe for an hour and only buy one coffee. One day he simply said he was unable to lead the ride as he was short staffed so had to cover the cafe and everyone was like "err...how do we know the way?" He was staggered that they'd all basically followed him around week after week and had no idea where they were! No commitment from anyone else to step up.

I'm guessing footflaps rides on their own and has seen the news covering the likes of the paddleboarders who came unstuck in Wales after the heavy rains...
As much as I can see his points, they just don't stand up...if anything happened and the person decided to sue then there are a lot of things that can reduce the level of stress for the person (or club) being sued.
This prep stuff isn't bad once you've done it a couple of times, but it does reduce the likelihood of being blamed.
Footflaps argument revolves around everyone being grown-up enough to admit they made a mistake - if that mistake means 24/7 care they are less likely to be so willing to admit it was on them.
It shouldn't stop peopl.of.put them off but awareness is needed...these days it is far to easy to point blame on others.

I have been involved in organising MTB clubs etc - there is an essential dichotomy (well maybe more than one) in that (gross generalisation alert) people who MTB in the wilderness don't want lots of rules, but to have a club as many have spoken about above, you have to have rules. You also have to have people prepared to turn up regularly. Attempts to run them like roadie clubs don't work as the structure of the rides and range of abilities doesn't map.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

My advice is to make a rule (sorry) that the committee office holders have to change at least every two years, to stop the cronyism and empire building and inevitable fall-outs, and spread the admin load.

All this is good to have and hopefully never needs to be used, so absolutely get the club going and running - if it gets more people out riding then job jobbed!

Where in Devon is it based? I'd like to join a club. Based in Exeter.

Re advice: visibility of the club, a fair few people aren't on Facebook these days it's good to have a website or something similar too

Our members live between West Cornwall and East Devon, although much of our regular riding is Dartmoor and East Devon. If you'd like to join up and respond to the survey on the front page that will give you a good sense of where we are and your views would be very welcome. SW MTB Club (name TBC)

The same goes to any other STW'ers who live in Devon or are visiting - the club has a bunch of fab people who ride locally who would love to show people around local off-piste, Dartmoor loops, etc. All are welcome!

The old club used to charge a membership fee, and we're waiting to see what members say they want before going forwards with any financial commitments.

Thanks very much for all the feedback and ideas so far by the way - STW can be relied on to provide a diverse set of views and expertise for almost any situation. Lots to think about!