Not sure if this has been covered lately, but if you like the idea of an extra hour of evening light year round (so more time after work for a nice long ride through the summer) then get onto the http://www.lighterlater.org/ website and send an e-mail to your MP to try to get them to vote for the bill [b]this Friday.[/b] Otherwise the bill will sink without trace.
Did I just give this a crap title? Doesn't anyone like the idea of an hour's more riding time on summer evenings?
maybe, or it could be that we're all in the grip of an apathy related to our lack of exposure to daylight - who knows?
or maybe we prefer what we have now.
Very south east centric. The further north and west you go the less sense this makes - dawn at 10am anyone?
This crops up every year or two and its always the same.
Where I live, I don't see that there would be any benefits.
I don't need longer summer evenings, just longer autumn & winter ones. I'd favour BST all year round (or even an advance in autumn)
Er, there isn't an "extra" hour's light. There's the same amount in each 24 hour period - whether people in London want to load it to the beginning or the end of the day seems to have very little thought for anyone else.
Accept that we live in Northern Europe - summer days are "long", winter days are "short". Make transport, etc. decisions accordingly.
How very odd - seems like a no-brainer to me. Shift an hour of daylight in the morning (from when most people are asleep) and add it onto the end of the day instead (to when they are awake).
I know that your days are only around 7 hours of daylight in Scotland in the middle of winter, but given that, I don't see how it would have a detrimental impact there (it would still be dark both morning and evening), whereas it definitely would have a very beneficial impact for anyone who likes doing sport after work for most of the UK (which is where most of us live).
BTW - I don't live "in London"
Scaredypants - this proposal is for a year round adjustment, so autumn and winter would be covered.
And to many of us the proposal is totally stupid.
This way we have less dark mornings for longer and that makes a huge difference. I think the timings of the hour change could be altered however moving everything an hour forward would give us much darker mornings without any evening gain ( as it still would be dark in the evening rush hour)
How would you like it not to be light until gone 10 am?
I lived in Glasgow during the 70s experiment with this and it was universally hated.
I hate the suggestion. Quite tired of people keep suggesting it, without, it seems, a true appreciation of what impact it would have on people living up North.
Children going to school in darkness is just one example.
Such suggestions grate on me as they are purely [i]lifestyle[/i] driven.
"[i]hour's more riding time on summer evenings?[/i]
I prefer to keep things as they are. Not all the ideas people had in the past, are bad ones or need messing with.
[i]How would you like it not to be light until gone 10 am?
I lived in Glasgow during the 70s experiment with this and [b]it was universally hated[/b].
[/i]
See ?
😉
I know, though I'd prefer it not to include summerrightplacerighttime - Member
Scaredypants - this proposal is for a year round adjustment, so autumn and winter would be covered
Well, if it's going to be dark til gone 9 for your journey to work under current arrangements, you're just saying no to spite the rest of us, aren't you 😉How would you like it not to be light until gone 10 am?
I lived in Glasgow during the 70s experiment with this and it was universally hated
"Safety"-wise, didn't the accident reports during that exp show greatest gains for N England and S Scotland rather than London TJ ?
I'm cool with dark mornings (I'd be at work anyway), so despite living in scotcheggland I'd like it to be light in the evening for another hour so I can do stuff I enjoy.
How do I vote against this daft proposal?
"How very odd - seems like a no-brainer to me."
no-brainer possibly has different meanings to different people, but usually means a someone with no brain's idea.
Shift an hour of daylight in the morning (from when most people are asleep
It's light by 8am in most of the UK in the middle of Winter - I think you'll find most people aren't asleep
You're a student, right?
dawn at 10am anyone?
Is it really dawn at 9am now in most of the north? Or just a few very isolated north western parts?
[i]dawn at 10am anyone?[/i]
I've just googled sunrise time for Edinburgh and it says 08.19 and sets at 15.44, so under lighterlater that would be 09.19 and 16.44.
Doesn't sound that bad to me?
And conversely for June it would be 05.27 and setting at 23.03 (under lighterlater)
which also to my mind doesn't sound too bad either.
Saw this on the news some 'expert' explained how it would be so beneficial to us all.
The fact is we have roughly 8hrs daylight in UK at this time of the year so no matter what if you work 9-5 you won't see any of it 🙂
I'm not a student. Actually at 8 I'm getting my kids out of the house onto their bikes to ride to school with them.
They tried it in Portugal and it was an utter failure apparently. Try getting your kids to sleep when its still daylight at 11pm.
nickc - so at teh moment itsw lightish in morning rushour and dark at evening. Under lighter later it would be dark for both. Thats supposed to be an advantage>
there is still some time to shortest night as well.
This way its lightish for morning rush hour the whole winter and dark for evening. Under lighter later it would be dark for both.
higgo, you could e-mail your MP via [url= http://www.writetothem.com/ ]this website[/url] - it's the same mechanism that Lighter Later are using via their website to encourage people to ask their MPs to support it.
It would probably be more persuasive if you could come up with a good reason not to vote for it though.
I'm not a student. Actually at 8 I'm getting my kids out of the house onto their bikes to ride to school with them.
& you rather it was dark then?
Not a student? Southerner then
i just don't see the argument that a dark commute in the morning is loads better then a dark one in the evening.
maybe i've missed the point?
Found the followign (can we trust RoSPA?)
Relates to 1968-71 "experiment" - obviously potentially other confounders (apparently breathalysers came into common use then) but even so, ...
(number of deaths/serious inj saved, and % change by region)
[b]England
[/b]South East
700
-9
South West
150
-7
Central
450
-11
Northern
900
-19
Wales
About 25
-3
[b]Scotland
[/b]Southern
About 25
-13
Central
350
-20
North East
100
-17
Northern
Small [b]increase [/b]- less than 20
[b]+9[/b]
Total Great Britain
2700
-12
scardypants - they had to revisit those figures when people pointed out there was major changed to driving laws around that time - drink drive or seatbelts - can't remember which. After taking that into account the numbers were far less convincing
Tomthumb - here it would be both commutes in the dark under lighter later not just one - so it would be worse
A 1998 report, commissioned by the Government [u][b]to resolve the arguments[/b][/u] 😉 about the likely effects of SDST, used two different methodologies to predict whether there would be casualty savings by switching to SDST.4 It concluded that there would indeed be casualty savings and stated:
• Overall, there would be around 450 fewer deaths and serious injuries, including between 104 to 138 fewer deaths (depending on which methodology is used).
• In Scotland, the casualty reductions would be slightly lower, proportionately, than for Great Britain as a whole. Nevertheless, it was estimated that SDST would result in 41 fewer deaths and serious injuries and 57 fewer casualties in total. (The smaller numbers in the Scottish data reduced the reliability of the estimate).
• The effects of darkness were found to be greater for pedestrians than for vehicle occupants, in both Winter and Summer
• The effects were found to be greater for fatalities than for non-fatal casualties.
7pm start for mid week rides is a 7pm start, wkether it is light or dark is irrelevant, say NO to change 😀
forget about what this will do to daylight hours in winter - it's dark all the time anyway.
it's winter.
forget about what this will do to daylight hours in summer - it's light all the time anyway.
it's summer.
this will make a nice difference to spring/autumn, when we all get sent home to bed at 7pm because it's dark, but woken up at 5am because it's light.
lighterlater would mean an extra hour out playing in spring/autumn, and an extra hour asleep in the morning.
it's a brilliant idea.
cue someone complaining how 'lighterlater' will mean that it gets dark in winter...
any minute now...
or maybe we prefer what we have now.Very south east centric. The further north and west you go the less sense this makes - dawn at 10am anyone?
This crops up every year or two and its always the same.
&
And to many of us the proposal is totally stupid.This way we have less dark mornings for longer and that makes a huge difference. I think the timings of the hour change could be altered however moving everything an hour forward would give us much darker mornings without any evening gain ( as it still would be dark in the evening rush hour)
How would you like it not to be light until gone 10 am?
I lived in Glasgow during the 70s experiment with this and it was universally hated.
Your POV is very much based on where you live in the country - why should it carry more weight than someone who lives somewhere else? Put it to the vote I say, let a little bit of democracy cloud the issue.. 😉
Sorry quite happy with the arrangements. With GMT meaning an hour extra of daylight in the morning it means that I can still walk the dog in the mornings at 7am, so this suits me. Without GMT I would be travelling [i]to[/i] and from work in darkness. At least now I see some daylight in the mornings
At the moment the arrangement works well for me.
I get to bike with my daughter to school in daylight, she gets picked up at 3, when it's light. Changing this would make no difference to how much daylight I see pass by the office window.
Put it to the vote I say, let a little bit of democracy cloud the issue..
Hold on, this isn't Switzerland, you know..!
How about a compromise: don't put the clocks back in autumn, but still put them forward in spring.
Very south east centric. The further north and west you go the less sense this makes - dawn at 10am anyone?
TJ, I'm in the South East and I think it's a BARMY IDEA! Mainly becasue I leave the house at 6.30 am every day, and the sooner it gets light, the better I think 🙂
& you rather it was dark then?Not a student? Southerner then
I'd rather it was light. BUT, on balance, I'll put up with taking them in slightly less light in the mornings if it means we get more light in the evenings from May 'till Sept for having fun.
Sorry - stupid idea. I don't want it any darker than it already is when I leave for work. I look forward to the clocks going back in the Autumn so I don't leave for work in the dark [u]and[/u] get home from work in the dark!
And I'm in central Britain. So Ner!
It's 3:50pm just now and it's getting dark. Where's the benefit to people who live in the north and finish at 5?
I'd rather it was light. BUT, on balance, I'll put up with taking them in slightly less light in the mornings if it means we get more light in the evenings from May 'till Sept for having fun.
But that would mean loads of people North of Dorset would then end up having to take their kids in the darkness rather than just slightly less light
It's 3:50pm just now and it's getting dark. Where's the benefit to people who live in the north and finish at 5?
Try thinking about how it might work on other days of the year than today.
But that would mean loads of people North of Dorset would then end up having to take their kids in the darkness rather than just slightly less light
I suspect that some people, even as far N as Somerset, might like it.
We know you don't like the idea, but some of the people on here who've been positive baint frm Drzet, otherwise I'd know them.
i dont run my life by what it says on the clock
if you could really add an hours sunlight i would be well up for it, but changing the display on your watch will not achieve that.
rightplacerighttime - MemberIt's 3:50pm just now and it's getting dark. Where's the benefit to people who live in the north and finish at 5?
Try thinking about how it might work on other days of the year than today.
Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post
OK then 21st June where I live (roughly the half way point between Lands End and John o Groats.)
Sunset @ 21:27
End of civil Twilight @ 22:23
It is light enough until 10:30pm to ride quite happily with out lights and you want to move it until 11:30pm? No thanks.
We don't get dark enough here for astronomical twilight for almost 3 months of the year and in the middle of summer it looks like the sun is going to rise in the north on a clear night anyway.
why do people insist on judging this idea by the effect it will have in winter?
"oh no, it'll be dark in the morning"
yes, yes it will, it already is, it's winter.
just think about the extra hour of useful daylight you'll have in the evening during March, April, August, September and October.
(November, December, January, February it's dark more or less all the time, it's WINTER)
(May, June, July, it's light more or less all the time, it's summer)
once we're past mid-summer the hours of daylight shift so fast that pretty soon (mid september-ish) we're racing the clock to fit in a ride after work.
thanks for the heads up i have asked my mp to ignore this campaign and any others backed by the hard of thinking.
smuttiesmith - Member
It is light enough until 10:30pm to ride quite happily with out lights and you want to move it until 11:30pm? No thanks.
Exactly right smuttiessmith!
The problem with the lighterlater idea is that it only goes half way.
It's already light enough on a summer evening but dark too early in winter.
Surely it would be better if next spring we put the clocks forward as usual but then leave them there forever and never put them back again.
That way the nice summer evenings would stay the same and the nasty winter ones would be slightly less nasty, and everyone would be happier, our carbon emissions would be less, our road traffic accidents would be fewer and most importantly the clock in my car would be right all year round instead of just half the time.
Sorted.
Chris_TBG
]
Doesnt get rid of thd issue of it not getting light until 10 am in sCotland. dark for both rush hours rather than just the evening one
Smuttiesmith,
You've moved from one extreme to the other (quelle surprise), but as has been pointed out above it's not so much the winter or summer that this will affect, but the spring and autumn.
Why don't you have a look at a date in early May, or late August?
Lobby your employer to let you work 8 - 4 instead.
Jeremy: 'but it'll be dark in winter'
yes Jeremy, it's WINTER.
sunrise at 8.40* is hardly ideal for rush-hour/school run/milkmen/posties as it is.
everyone i know is already at work by then, get to work you slackers!
(it's already dark for both commutes)
(*8.20 at the start of Dec, and again by mid-jan)
Why don't you have a look at a date in early May, or late August?
Because it's the Winter & Summer where it'll have the biggest impact positive or negative, there's no point highlighting where it'll have minimal effect.
e.g. You chose to highlight the Summer evening benefit in the OP rather than Spring or Autumn
sunrise at 8.40* is hardly ideal for rush-hour/school run/milkmen/posties as it is.everyone i know is already at work by then, get to work you slackers!
(it's already dark for both commutes)
(*8.20 at the start of Dec, and again by mid-jan)
Don't know where exactly those times are for but using those dates for somewhere in the middle of the UK - say Leeds - civil twilight on 1/12 starts at 07:19 & ends at 16:32
For 31/12 it's 07:41 & 16:38
[i]nickc - so at teh moment itsw lightish in morning rushour and dark at evening. Under lighter later it would be dark for both. Thats supposed to be an advantage>[/i]
well, not really, it would be lighter at the end of the day for a start, (as it will be an hour later than presently) and at the very least light-ish/getting lighter at the start. surely?
those times are for edinburgh.
and lighter later will have little effect in winter - cos it's dark all the time anyway.
it'll have little effect in summer - cos it's light all the time anyway.
in Mid-winter Edinburgh gets 6 hours of daylight, and when i say 'daylight' i mean that the sun is above a theoretical horizon for 6 hours, whether or not there's any daylight depends whether there's a small hill or some cloud cover in the way)
anyway, why stop at Edinburgh? - why be so southern-centric? - why not base our daylight management strategy on the requirements of Lerwick?
i added my vote!!!! 🙂
awhiles - so you want us to have both rush hours in darkness rather than just one? Thanks.
The timings we have at the moment are teh preferred option for most of us
no, my point is that you/we aready have both commutes in the dark.
i'm on my way to work at 7.40, as i suspect are most people, give or take a bit.
that simply is not true.
Perhaps we could have separate time zones? Wouldn't be much of an issue, other countries seem to manage
It'd be far better to campaign to work flexible hours, starting your day at 8am and finishing at 4 rather than 9 until 5 would have much the same effect.
Not to mention if people mixed up their working hours a bit commuting times would be cut.
i'm on my way to work at 7.40am, i suspect most people do similar.
this is already 1 hour ahead of sunrise in Edinburgh - on Dec 20th
if i lived in Edinburgh, i ALREADY would be commuting to and from work in the dark.
(i already do here in sheffield, on Dec20th, which is the date we're using if TJ wants to base our daylight management strategy on the shortest day)
scotland needs its own timezone.
france is nearer to me than scotland and both have different money to mine too! 🙂
i want more evening ride light 🙂 🙂
That's what I'm thinking Jedi. 😀
i prefer to go for a ride before work
if you could really add an hours sunlight i would be well up for it, but changing the display on your watch will not achieve that.
Correct.
But given the choice I'd like mine later for after-work riding. I'd be quite hppy at this time of year to have dawn at noon and dark at 10pm. May be in a minority there though.
Well, it's progressed a bit.
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/dec/03/daylight-savings-bill [/url]
So my neighbour can mow his lawn at 1130pm in the summer instead of 1030?
No thanks.
Lobby your employer to let you work 8 - 4 instead.
Totally agree why mess about with everyone's time. Sure if there is wide spread adoption of these hours after that then your case is strengthened. Plus this is considerably more likely to happen.
once we're past mid-summer the hours of daylight shift so fast that pretty soon (mid september-ish) we're racing the clock to fit in a ride after work.
Just a thought...
[img] 
[/img]
I don't understand why Northern folk moan all the time. Perhaps it's the effect of putting up with erratic daylight hours!? 😉
Daylight hours are quite predictable - as is the whining from down south
ditch_jockey:
riding-lights are indeed an excellent idea, i have some, they're ace.
but they don't really help at the bmx track, or people having a kick-around in the park, or outdoor climbing, or sailing, or ... etc.
this brilliant country of ours is (not?) dealing with an alarming increase of stupidity related fatness.
i don't know how many fat people would do half an hour of exercise 2 or 3 times a week if they had a bit more time to do it in - but one way to find out is to give it a go.
how many fat people are there in the uk? - about 30,000,000? if 1% were persuaded to turn off X-factor and go for a walk every now and then, that would be 300,000 less fat people, that's 300,000 people who don't risk getting their feet amputated through diabetes related complications.
how many teenage boys are there in the uk? 4million? how many more will go to bed knackered because they've been razzing round the bmx track for an extra 3 nights a week, 6 months of the year? - rather than getting listless, bored and (self)destructive because it's dark and the track doesn't have flood lights.
etc.
yes, it will get dark in winter - it already does. But we also have 'excess' daylight in the mornings for much of the year which we don't make much use of, i don't honestly know if changing the clocks will change much, but i think it's worth trying.
it's a very cheap fix to some very expensive problems, and if it doesn't work, we can undo it quickly and cheaply.
I still don't get the problem and I live in Scotland.
I'm up at 7-8am each day. It's dark. I have 2 hours at most to get to work or uni- it's only just light when I arrive, but the rush hour is still dark. Making it dark an hour later makes naff all difference.
In the evening, say I finish at 5, at least it's only just got dark. And in January/February it'd be light til 6, giving me a chance to do something with my evening that just wouldn't be done in the morning.
What do all the people against this idea do between 8 and 9am that needs so much halflight?
Real jobs?
surely people with 'real' jobs are at work by 8? or working shifts so none of this would affect them...
ahwiles - Memberthis brilliant country of ours is (not?) dealing with an alarming increase of stupidity related fatness.
BST was introduced in 1916. The problem of obesity has increased since then. Therefore, I submit that just using GMT all year will reduced the problem of obesity.
working hours in general are 9-5. At the moment in scotland its light to get to work dark after.
If we change the clocks its dark for both. NO advantage only disadvantage