MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Hi all,
The most over asked question on bike forums.... but with some specific requirements towards longer races and an XC mincing perspective. I want to say "what marathon bike" but I want it to be an XC bike blurring "Trail Bike" abilities, not Euro style marathon races. I also want to avoid the use of "Downcountry"... DOH! 😀
My ideal bike would be:
100mm front and rear travel. Up to 120mm if mega efficient
Efficient and nice to climb for someone used to XC race bikes/ rigid singlespeed
66 degree HTA or slacker
Reach/ Stack around 470mm/ 600mm (long and low fit)
Longer rather than short chainstays ideally. Nice long wheelbase.
Certainly one large bottle in the triangle, ideally room for a second bottle inside the frame
Mud friendly for a long time not just a good time (large tyre clearance, sensible cable routing, long lasting and easily available replacement hardware, ideally threaded BB)
Frame under £3000 (sounds like lot but this restricts options significantly!) or decent value full build not much more
Light weight would also be a big bonus
The usual suspects always come up like:
Transistion Spur (too "trail"?)
Specialized Epic Evo (front runner for value from a low end complete)
Trek Top Fuel (too heavy and expensive)
Scott Spark (too complicated and I don't like the amount of levers and faff).
Aside from the Spec Epic Evo to look at I had come up with:
Vitus Rapide. Good on the value, maybe not the best rear end for pedalling, stiffness and mud clearance. Geo also not quite what I'd ideally go for.
ARC8 Evolve FS or even Essential at a push. Headset cable routing and flat mount spoil otherwise promising options.
I am struggling for inspiration for what would essentially be a super light XC race bike with "Trail" geometry. I have a custom steel singlespeed and in the course of building that I've tried a lot of geo options to know what I feel is non-negotiable (not just online review hype 🙂 )
There must be some gems out there so over to you knowledgeable folk 🙂
The Rocky Mountain (whatever it's calked - Element?) is supposed to be an ace bike
I would add in the Element. I have one which replaced my Spur (other half stole it) & it’s gone straight in as my favourite bike, which I expected, as it’s essentially the same, just fits me a bit better with a slacker HA.
But, if you think the Spur is a bit too much, you may feel the same for that.
Based on your list, maybe the Epic Evo? What about the new SC Blur?
Good point!. I think whilst light weight, it has gotten a bit too long travel and mushy for what was originally an XC bike. I think I would feel massively overbiked with a RM Element. Fit-wise, I'd also be in between a M and L. I'll have to browse the geo adjustments offered with the Ride4 chip to see how close I could get. If anyone has one I'd love to know some real world, non magazine hype thoughts 🙂
i wanted an element badly, especially when i kept seeing them on sale at decent discounts...
Orange must have something that suits?
Stage Evo factory.
Orange must have something that suits?
Not at the light weight, ultra efficient XC racer's more versatile bike side of the spectrum. Bottle issues too. With the bits I have, I reckon 9.xxkg is doable with the right frame and fork. Certainly sub 10kg even with a longer travel fork.
BMC Fourstroke would be more my type of thing but veeeery expensive and no stock of the new models as far as I can see
The best of all worlds
Santa Cruz Tallboy v5 Mines a smidge under 30lb with carbon wheels . 120 mm rear 130 front. not the lightest bike ever but close and every pedal stroke it feels like cheating. And even better now some SC frames are in the sale under 2900.Demo day might be a good idea too 😉
I have a Spark. The cables are a problem and I like the lockout.
What I don't like is that after 300 miles of riding I'm having to send it off for a carbon repair because the pivot loosened on a ride and the nut holding it in just wore through the carbon it tightens against. I think it's designed down to a weight in a worse way than the old Spark.
Based on your list, maybe the Epic Evo? What about the new SC Blur?
Epic Evo is the best all around fit and compromise of everything I think I've found
SC Blur is also very, very expensive. Also geo and handling is likely to be a backwards step from my custom rigid SS. OK option, but I think there are better options, even if I could afford one 🙂 Obviously it's the rider not the bike, but if I am to spend a lot of money I'd like to get as close to what I think I like the feel of
Can anyone tell me why the Spec Evo is a rubbish bike or tell me some tales of woe? 🙂
Love my Epic Evo it's around 22.5/23lbs now does everything well feels like cheating
^ That is a fantastic looking bike
YT Izzo? Canyon Lux?
Too much bike and too little bike if the reviews are to be believed. Looking for that middle ground as I've never enjoyed too much travel but am looking for a little more forgiving ride compared to rigid SS
The ARC8 Evolve FS gives a good bench mark for weight and geometry I am after
https://www.arc8bicycles.com/bikes/mountain/evolve-fs
Recent mention of the SL model in https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/nbd-enve-mog-gravel-bike-hope-pro-5-hub-nicolai-saturn-11-sl/
Love my Epic Evo .... does everything well feels like cheating
+1 for EpicEvos
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I was looking at replacing my Smuggler, availability and reliability were pretty high up on the list after having two shit experiences on two other bikes.
Had a short list:
-Spur, couldln't buy one and was between sizes
-Izzo, wasn't keen on the direct to consumer, didn't want a full bike either
-Top Fuel, odd seat tube angle, always felt like I was too far back when seated
-Epic Evo, sitll a bit too xc for me
Ended up on a Stumpjumper Sworks, its a bit more travel than the downcountry bracket, but 26lbs on xc tyres and it flies. Pretty much the same geometry as my old xwing enduro. Really impressed with how it goes uphill and downhill.
Fezzari Signal Peak and Orbea Oiz are other which have come up in my searches... will have to do more research 🙂
If anyone has one I’d love to know some real world, non magazine hype thoughts
I’m probably that person. Although coming from the other end of the spectrum, definitely not an XC racer, nor any aspiration to be, with a focus on the downs. That said, I am happy doing some massive days out on the bike & my ‘XC’ is probably most peoples trail riding. I wanted something that was super light, still capable & fun to ride.
I said above, I had a Spur, which was a Large & a bit on the small side for me, but the XL was a bit too big. My other half used to steal the Spur all the time, so I started to look out for another, or something else & basically the Element came up. I swapped all my parts over & the rest is history. In its lightest form it’s 24.6lbs (Rekon Races), in the picture below it’s about a pound heavier & I also have a set of alloy wheels & big tyres (Assegai/DHR2) so it really does over most bases.
The reviews I would say are pretty accurate. It’s not an XC whippet for sure, but holy sh*t it rips along & down. I find it a bit more muted than the Spur, as it’s a proper FSR link rather than a flex stay but its way after than it has any business going & doesn’t get out of it’s depth until its silly fast & rough. I think it’s probably a bit much in terms of geometry for what you may want however. After I built it up I wanted to check if the geo numbers were as expected - turns out it’s a fair bit slacker than RM suggest. In the slackest setting the head angle is 63.8 degrees, BB is a bit lower & STA is a bit steeper - all of which is good for me, but probably less so for an XC racer?
Testing a few different bikes in the process of getting my steel HT frame built, I came to the conclusion that trail/ enduro style geometry is more than fine for an XC racer style rider. It feels odd at first but there aren't really any downsides.
I was won over by Adrian at Swarf that bikes are way too conservative with geometry. Companies have to sell different bikes to different people and people have preconceptions about what certain numbers mean for the ride without looking everything together.
My 66 degree HTA rigid SS, with a longer wheelbase than anything listed here so far (1200mm+), is twitchy as anything when needed because I have quite a forward weight distribution and low bar/ stack height, with a super short stem. The frame geo suggests one thing but it can be made to ride a certain way with the fit and rider position. Certainly a way better descender than my Procaliber but definitely a very XC riding feel despite what the numbers may suggest because of how I like to set it up.
A 100/ 100mm, XC race weight bike with a very efficient ride feel and Element style geometry would be awesome I reckon. But very niche. As I mentioned the ARC8 Evolve FS is heading in the right direction IMO
carbon wasp. or is that too much toward the trail bike. the element also has appeal.
i’ve met a few chaps with epic evos. they like them and as much as i like to dislike specialized, they looked good.
if you have ideas about how you want the bike to ride, a few demos would probably be a good idea.
edit: just read your post above. seems like you have a good idea of what you want.
What was the chainstay length on your steel SS bike?
Carbon Wasp Truffle looks promising . A touch heavier than I may go for but looks robust and a fun bike. I want a bike that is fun to sprint everywhere out of the saddle but also be good fun on longer more chilled days out.
What was the chainstay length on your steel SS bike?
Longer end of the spectrum for the ride feel I wanted.
445mm to the middle of the Paragon SS sliding dropouts.
Wheelbase is 1204mm in that position with a 100mm fork/ 66.5 degree HTA.
466mm reach/ 606mm stack/ 45mm stem (I am 175cm tall)
58mm BB drop with a 100mm fork to sit a touch higher than most XC HT frames and keep maneuverability
Think that is the main things 🙂 Still very much an XC feeling bike to ride.
Interesting thread. Having recently got a Canyon Spectral 125 (64 deg HA, 76 deg SA), I think I completely agree with you on geometry. On my first ride I was thinking I could race it in XC if it wasn't so heavy, and had a bit less travel. The steep seat angle is a revelation for climbing. I almost feel the exact head angle is less important for XC.
Anyway I am thinking my next XC bike will be an Orbea Oiz or Epic Evo. Oiz much better value probably.
Quite a lot of people I know use a Yeti Arc for both trail and XC, and I can see why based on the geometry. If you didn't mind a hardtail, it'd be pretty good. I know someone who used a 120mm fork plus crown spacer to keep weight down and geometry the same as 130mm.
I'm on an Intense Sniper T. I've ridden 120 mile XC rides, raced XC and marathon - even did an enduro on it. But it ticks a lot of the boxes and mine weighs 25.5lbs. The 100mm version is even lighter.
A quick glance and the prices seem to have shot up - also I definitely wouldn't class it as a winter bike. Tyre clearance is to about 2.4 max.
Tis a great ride.
Orbea Oiz or S/C Blur would be my suggestion
Can anyone tell me why the Spec Evo is a rubbish bike or tell me some tales of woe?
For starters I presume that it has that godawful action man hatch thing in the downtube....
Nope it doesn't.
I have an Epic Evo, it's very capable (I did the Ardrock on it and it was great). The one downside is it does bob when climbing which isn't ideal if doing a lot of xc racing.
The best of all worlds
Santa Cruz Tallboy v5 Mines a smidge under 30lb with carbon wheels . 120 mm rear 130 front. not the lightest bike ever but close and every pedal stroke it feels like cheating.
Hmmmm. Sounds like a nice compromise bike but I'm really not getting the " best of both worlds" vibe.
My 150/140 Occam is 13.6kg or thereabouts and doesn't remotely fit in with the OPs vision of a light fast bike.
If you didn’t mind a hardtail
Whilst not my first choice, I would actually be open to a nice light HT frame for this bike.
The problem is there are even fewer options with XC slight, geo pushing HT frames, unless someone can name me a 1kg, under 66 degree HTA, long wheelbase, long reach, low stack hardtail frame for a 100mm fork (120 at most)?
I have an Epic Evo, it’s very capable (I did the Ardrock on it and it was great). The one downside is it does bob when climbing which isn’t ideal if doing a lot of xc racing.
Looking at the suspension/ linkage characteristics a bit more, I can completely believe it to be a bit bobby. The online reviews seem to gloss over that a bit. Also depends on the perspective of the reviewer and what they are used to as to how well a bike climbs or sprints. Hmmmm....
Options for lightweight trail/XC hardtails are basically a Yeti Arc, Specialized Chisel, Ibis DV9 (new one) or Scott Scale. All are about 66 - 68 HTA I think.
Ibis Exie seems to fit the bill
Carbonda FM936? Same frame as the Vitus and available as frame or custom build from pedals in Edinburgh. https://www.pedalsbikecare.co.uk/collections/whats-in-stock-now/products/pedals-project-down-country-frame-and-shock
Interesting to read this as I have an Epic evo '21 and I think you need to be a little careful as Epic Evo with the brain tech in it, around 2020 and before I think IIRC, is a very different bike - hence I bought a '21.
I use it for just what OP wanted, a long haul marathon type bike, done South Downs Way, King Alfreds Way and over 3k miles now on it and it's ace.
No it doesn't have downtube storage, but it does have two bottle cages, I've never found mine to bob going uphill, so was interested to see someone else mention that. You do have to watch out for the early SID fork bushing issue, mine got replaced under warranty but as a 120mm front just over 100m back it is awesome sauce for what I ride.
Done Wales, trail centres and lots of natural long haul and wouldn't swap it but then I have gone to town on it since buying and around 22.5kg now and can easily keep up with ebike mates, which is a good laugh, but then they might just be humouring me.
Hope it helps, but if you have any questions I can help with drop me a note.
James
I have gone to town on it since buying and around 22.5kg now
That's impressive!
My EpicEvo is a 2020 model so has the brain, so it bobs very little climbing. Have had it replaced under warranty, and suspect that issue is why they don't have a brain on newer models.
As fatbikeandcoffee says, ideally suited for South downs
If you are going to go by the (un)official definition of "downcountry" straight from the guys over at Pinkbike who coined the term then the bike shouldn't have more than 120mm travel at the front. That puts the Rocky Mountain Element into the short-travel trail category.
The Spur is a strange beast. It's not quite a trail bike but its not quite an XC bike. It inhabits the twilight zone between disciplines. It's also the best bike I've ever owned for general riding. Easily keeps up with the lycra crew but when going at pace you start to feel slightly more tired over the 30-mile mark than you would riding an XC-whippet. That could be the tyre choice though - plenty of riders on the Transition Facebook groups riding Spurs in local XC / marathon events.
I think the Epic Evo is really what you want. I had my heart set on a Spur but they were impossible to find for a while so demoed the Evo and really enjoyed it. Felt more like my previous 27.5 Giant Anthem which also had a 120mm fork - an XC bike that could be roughhoused round a trail centre red run and still have a lot of fun. They're also quite a bit lighter than the Spur and Top Fuel.
Just built this Sworks epic Evo up, and it’s an absolute blast, I sold a Scott Spark 2022 to build it up, I had the scott 12 month and it was a lovely riding bike not much between them both, only I got fed up with all the off standard things on the spark ie hidden shock, twin lock integrated cables in headset, really awkward to work on, the epic Evo is just simple 2 cables (brakes) and that’s it.https://thumbsnap.com/t/mmQi3yjB.jp g" target="_blank">
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If you are going to go by the (un)official definition of “downcountry” straight from the guys over at Pinkbike who coined the term then the bike shouldn’t have more than 120mm travel at the front. That puts the Rocky Mountain Element into the short-travel trail category.
Element can be run 120mm (or 140). The Rocky XC team run them with a 120 fork.
Transition have said the Spur is ok for up to 130mm travel now.
I think the Epic Evo sounds a pretty good option for you.
On the Izzo they did an ‘uncaged’ option with shorter travel and reviews said it was really fast pedalling. All they did to shorten travel was a shorter stroke shock - so no reason why you couldn’t do that.
You could get a whole Izzo Core for £3199 according to their website - you could probably make a good chunk of that back selling what you don’t need…
https://uk.yt-industries.com/products/bikes/izzo/
Although that core Izzo has an aluminium read end - you need the £3799 bike for full carbon. For £3799 you get a Fox 34 performance elite (would sell for quite a chunk), dt swiss m1900 wheels (would sell well), full GX eagle drivetrain (decent), raceface stuff etc.
That frame with a SID, carbon wheels, nice light carbon bits should come in really quick / light
Canyon Lux trail. Its what I have and it would probably fit the bill. Fun for messing around at trail centres but also competent at racing.
Echoing others I've just bought a 2022 Oiz H10 TR for £2855 due to C2W overheads. Haven't had chance to ride it yet but sure looks pretty.
Intense Sniper T currently on sale..
I've a Sniper XC & it's brilliant though on occasion for trail riding it 120mm would be better than 100.
https://uk.intensecycles.com/collections/sale/products/sniper-t-1
Right then, a bit of a list so far...
ARC8 Evolve FS
BMC Fourstroke/ LT
Canyon Lux
Carbon Wasp Truffle
Evil Following
Fezzari Signal Peak
Ibis Exie
Intense Sniper T
Lapierre XRM
Nicolai Saturn 11
Nukeproof Reactor Carbon 290 ST
Orange Stage Evo factory.
Orbea Oiz
Revel Ranger
Rocky Mountain Element
Santa Cruz Blue
Santa Cruz Tallboy
Scott Spark
Specialized Epic Evo
Specialized Stumpjumper
Transistion Spur
Trek Top Fuel
Vitus Rapide
Yeti SB115
YT Izzo
I was on the verge of going for a Trek Top Fuel 9.7 this week on sale at £3200 linky
Then I realised the frame is a whole 1kg heavier than an Epic Evo and it wouldn't build very light even with very XC parts. Theeeen I discovered it has a stupid 55mm chainline. Why oh why is it so hard to build a simple straight forward frame nowadays. I have knee issues helped by a low q-factor on cranks and pedals and the heel to frame clearance is already too tight with the super wide Shimano cranks on. More grumbling ensues
In light of the above lack of inspiration I would like to propose a new bike category
DADCOUNTRY (MUMCOUNTRY also available)
DADCOUNTRY bike should have a slacker than 66 degree HTA, long wheelbase (long reach and longer rather than shorter chainstays) and a STA which doesn't put you over the back wheel. There is no reason why good all around handling should restricted to heavy, sofa like long travel bikes.
A DADCOUNTRY bike should have enough suspension travel to flatter you when you are riding like a sack of spuds after a 60 hour week, but have a good enough pedaling platform and be light enough to make you feel like a hero in the rare week when the kids actually let you get some sleep.
A DADCOUNTRY bike should have no weird standards or sizes, be easy to maintain and work on because when the rare opportunity arises to ride there isn't time to faff around in the garage.
With every penny earned going in to little darling's whoknowswhat and the part of the house that house yet again leaked or failed, a DADCOUNTRY bike should be somewhat affordable and be a bike for a long time not just a good time.
It sounds simple. Maybe it is that inevitable "just a mountain bike" a lot of us search for. But why can't the best of longer travel categories not be applied to short travel, light, sprinty, climby bikes?
The Spec Epic Evo is still the only one which is close to my DADCOUNTRY specs and I hope to take a look at one this week. Something like this would go down nicely... within budget... somehow 🙂
I looked at Oiz TR, Blur TR, Epic Evo…
…And bought a Cannondale Scalpel SE1. Seemed like the best value and was lighter than others at its price (although availability played a part too). No complaints with it so far. Perfect for my speed-mincing around the Peak.
Like a lot of bikes the Scalpel SE comes close but has a couple of weird let downs. I would have to be on an XL for the fit I want, which comes with a ginormous 52cm seat tube! That shouldn't be the case at 175cm tall. I'm not massively keen on a long dropper but that is such a fail. My custom steel frame has me completely sold on pushing the LLS trend for all types of bike, not just big, heavy long travel bikes
Wow. I’m 186cm on a large Scalpel, but it sounds like you know what you want geo wise.
Do Scalpels have weird prop features in their shocks? I heard a mechanic at my LBS swearing at one last month for that reason. (I think!) - certainly the lead time on a required part.
Cannondale do like a weird / proprietary standard on a lot of bikes so it wouldn’t be surprising.
If the Reactor is on the above list I’d also add the Bird Aether 9 a / c too. It’s probably trail rather than downcountey but ticks boxes on fit (reach vs seat tube height), no dodgy standards, relatively affordable, available either as a whole hike or frame only.
Both of those plus the Evil Following sound like more bike then you want though. I reckon the Orange Stage Evo falls into trail.
The Epic Evo seems like the option here really.
Cannondale Scalpel
Mondraker F-Podium DC another possible for anyone else considering options. Looks like it should be a great ride, but so expensive! No Large on Pauls Cycles 🙁
Salsa Spearfish would be up for consideration if not for a SuperBoost rear end and a silly 55mm chainline limiting low Q-Factor cranks
Wheelbase in Staveley in the lakes are selling scalpels for £3k down from 4.5K
Intense Sniper rider here - deffo consider the Sniper T, LLS-ish but still XC-light. I was riding a Santa Cruz Highball v2, which is fairly trad angles and I still ride for more gravelly stuff. Sniper was bought as I had a Kona Process and loved the geometry (although of course it's a bit dated by current Enduro/Trail standards) - Sniper is identical geometry but much much lighter. Must be one of the earliest downcountry bikes?
2022 Epic Evo here, used for everything (other than Chisel for local ridge from door). It's light and capable. I do use the shock lockout quite a lot, but it doesn't detract from the speed with which I'm able to cover ground on it.
The Intense looks like good value, but comparing my saddle position on a sagged HT to the slack STA on a sagged Sniper/ Sniper T it is going to be hard to get the saddle far enough forwards. The cable routing under the BB and towards the rotor would annoy me, as I’m sure gritty mud getting trapped in between the multitude of links would. Another close one, but not quite for me.
I’m off to see an Epic Evo today and try not talk myself out of it as it does seem the clear front runner for what I’m looking for 🙂
List above seems to miss Pivot Mach 4, there are some deals available and even Live valve upgrades included. I have only had longer travel bikes from Pivot and they have been excellent.
I’m off to see an Epic Evo today
Just buy it - you'll not be disappointed.......
not sure if we can say this here and if you are considering second hand options but there's a large Mondraker F-Podium DC for sale on Pinkbike buysell section...not mine by the way.
List above seems to miss Pivot Mach 4
There's a very nice one for sale in the classifieds.
Do you have any links to the Pivot deals? I’m struggling to find much
I was looking at a similar type of bike & very nearly pulled the trigger on an Epic Evo, but then got swung over to the Izzo Uncaged when they were on sale. Similar type of bike with full XX1 AXS for £4700 (I think the Epic frames are £4k alone).
The Intense looks like good value, but comparing my saddle position on a sagged HT to the slack STA on a sagged Sniper/ Sniper T it is going to be hard to get the saddle far enough forwards. The cable routing under the BB and towards the rotor would annoy me, as I’m sure gritty mud getting trapped in between the multitude of links would. Another close one, but not quite for me.
One of the most comfortable bikes I have, despite a slack seat angle. I do agree with the cable routing under the BB though. That is a bit naff and something I have experienced issues with. If you can accept it is a Californian bike and the limitations that come with that in terms of mud.... it is a fantastic ride.
Oh... dub bb. SHITE.
...very nearly pulled the trigger on an Epic Evo, but then got swung over to the Izzo Uncaged when they were on sale.
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on these. Couple of things:
- They have no stock of almost all sizes at the moment. Anybody have any idea when they are likely to have new stock?
- Is it really much more of a trail bike compared to something like the evo? I already have an XC hardtail so don't want something too similar, but would still like something relatively quick for big days - I'm more of a mile muncher than trail rider? And is the uncaged massively different to the standard Izzo - it's just 10mm less travel, right?
A bike for a decent amount of UK miles which isn't mud friendly is a big no for me.
The YT Izzo Uncaged is just lack of availability of the correct shock length and making a "new model" with shocks they could get ahold of as far as I can tell.
Spec Epic Evo today still seemed decent albeit expensive still. Really underwhelming experience in the Specialized Concept Store, having to answer my own questions with a poke around, being told I was a definite medium despite my assurances I'd done my sums and I'm sure I'm a large... only to find the saddle didn't raise high enough with the stock dropper for my saddle height and I was pretty bolt upright despite a 60mm stem 🙂 OK, so can I order a Large Epic Evo in Raspberry please... erm no we don't have any... they are available from the Specialized Concept store site... no, sorry we are a separate entity and can't order anything in. I can see why given how the businesses are set up, but what a fail from Spec to make it difficult for shops to either get stock from a central warehouse or share stock between Specialized branded concept stores.
Contrast to the Trek shop who let me have a spin around the block on a 10k Top Fuel, knocked £2000 off the price of the cheapest carbon model, furnished me with as much coffee as I could handle, chatted jump spots and singletrack, and could access a stock of 30+ bikes in this model from the warehouse in Germany any time I like.
I was looking a few weeks ago for a similar bike, but went hardtail in the end (Yeti ARC). I agree that the Epic looks like a good package and generally there seem to be more decent deals out there at the moment, but the Spesh factory builds still seem like poor value even when discounted.
I don't know how much of an XC mincer you really are, OP, if you're settled on a 66deg head angle!
@Ben_H 66 degrees is quite xc mincy these days surely? 🤣 When I ride my mates Santa Cruz 5010 v3 CC with that sort of head angle it feels very steep and flighty (my bike is 63.7 degrees)