[Closed] Leg training for descending

But, my right leg (rear pedal) is getting pumped up on sustained downhills 

The trick is not minding that it hurts.

Also, don't lead with the same foot all the time.

See I’ve got the pushing through the burn on the pedalling up going better than it’s ever been - but my right leg is getting pumped to the extent I wonder if it might cramp / give out on me - or not have the power when I need to lift the front wheel.

Switch foot? Obvs this has always felt odd but a couple of times yesterday at a baked hard / dry Rowberrow I’d put in a few pedals and ended up right foot forward. Didn’t feel quite as odd as it has done in the past / maybe I need to practice some switch footed descending 🤷‍♂️

Experience this with my left leg sometimes. I'm right dominant.

One leg squats
One leg presses
Bosu ball balance exercises on one leg

You won't to imitate riding as much as possible so stay away from 1RM and heavy weight. You want to build the endurance in that leg. Go for 20-30 reps.

Switching legs also helps when less techy bits approach.

Might also find your tighter on your left. Stretch it band, hip flexor, glutes, hamstring. 60 sec holds. May also want to look up 'muscle energy technique' to get those stretches working well.

Also, don’t lead with the same foot all the time.

Ditto - I have a favourite leading foot, but switch often

My legs never seem to build much mass, whereas my upper body does. I do 200kgs on the leg press - and also do ankle/calf raises on the leg press machine at 200kgs. 80kgs on the leg extension, but just don't seem to build them up

I’m surprised it’s your rear leg getting tired - I’ve always noticed the front leg fatiguing first, although I switch a bit.

It’s hard to compare weight strength on machines to free weights I think - I’m training in the garage so only have free weights to play with. I figure they’re going to contribute more to core strength through so that’s a good thing.

I didn’t go wild on the bar weight for front squats - just the weight of the bar (5’ Olympic style bar - so about 11-12kgs) and then 12.5kgs per side.

Jumping squats I did just with the bar unloaded.

Split squats at the end I held a 10kg plate on my chest - walking down the stairs at home feels a bit shaky now. Going running tomorrow could be fun....not!

@chiefgrooveguru- the front leg doesn’t even feel slightly tired in comparison to the rear one. I think I tend to collapse backwards if anything - so the rear leg takes the brunt of my weight more of the time. I also tend to work the rear of the bike more than the fork - no matter how hard I try to weight the front wheel more.

Think your last post summed it up. You have your position on the bike slightly wrong, too much weight on your back leg. Couple of hours with good skills coach will help you tweak it. My last one, our coach spent first 20 minutes checking us out on easy stuff spotting stuff like this, before moving onto anything else.

As for the weight program, I”d add some kind of hinge movement in for balance. Kettlebell swing or deadlift.

Thanks @clubby - I’ve had a few coaching sessions - the one most recently was only a few months back. On one of the videos it showed when I turned left my legs stayed strong but when I turned right I tended to collapse slightly backwards - although that was my left leg not the right one.

I’ve not had any feedback about sitting too far back but maybe that’s because it happens more on long descents - whereas with coaching you tend to be more stop/start sessioning bits of a trail. As I get tired I can feel like I’m going further back on the bike a bit. Need to keep working on that I think.

I already do deadlift on my back / biceps training session. Both really done much in the way of kettlebell swings over the years - will look to add that in.

Also, don’t lead with the same foot all the time.

Thats easier said than done for me, i'm so goofy footed tahat if i try and switch there is a very real chance i'll crash.

I would have thought a high amount of lighter, half squats would help, i.e. 3 x 50

Maybe some wall sits too

Horse stance.

Isometric split squat holds. As long as you can. Will burn like hell. And wall sits, as mentioned above.

Paused deficit dealifts.

On your deadlift day, after you've done your working sets, drop the weight to around 80% of the weight you use for your working set(s) (assuming you're doing around 5-8 reps for your working sets). Stand on a plate or move your hands out about 3 inches, lift the bar so the plates are about an inch off the floor, hold it there for a second, and then complete the rep.

5 sets of 5.

Oooo, wall sits, haven’t done those for years and years. Used to do them a bit in advance of ski holidays. They’re brutal.

Will look up isometric split squat holds.

I guess horse stance is similar in pain to wall sits as you’re sitting down into a low pose and holding it - will try those. Looks like it’s good for flexibility too.

The deficit deadlifts sound interesting - will see how those go. I just do 3x10 on deadlifts - and I don’t go at all heavy as I bulged a few discs in my back about 10-15 years ago deadlifting 150kgs. So now I just use about 40kgs in total and do the 10 reps but don’t push my luck with the weight and work really hard on form.

I assume you could do the pause for longer if you're using lighter weight.

I really feel it on the quads and mid-back area (which I guess is the core).

Will try the deadlift pauses and see how they feel - think Wednesday is chest / shoulders / tri’s so back / bi’s will be Friday. Got an easy week on the turbo between the first part of a plan riddled with sweet spot before going into a vo2 training block.

IME the only way to be bike fit is ride your bike...

IME the only way to be bike fit is ride your bike…

I don't agree. I spent the winter lifting and now riding the bike just feels so much better.

Before, if I was getting tired, it would affect every aspect of my riding. Now it's so much easier to actually keep riding properly when I'm blowing hard compared to how I used to feel which was that I was basically holding onto the bike and rolling down the hill because my whole body was too knackered to even maintain my attack position properly.

Trap deadlifts and pistol squats according to the guys a few years older than me at the bike studio…

Thats easier said than done for me, i’m so goofy footed tahat if i try and switch there is a very real chance i’ll crash.

Ride a fixie for a bit, that will sort it out. 🙂

@intheborders

IME the only way to be bike fit is ride your bike…

I disagree with this approach for me - because I don’t have the time to mtb for hours at a time that often due to work / family / kids / dog etc.

I can often grab 45 mins in the garage on a morning before work - so if I can make use of this to improve my fitness for riding then why wouldn’t I do it?

Also, you look at top mtbers, they’re supplementing riding bikes with gym stuff, when they have unlimited riding time pretty much.

I disagree with this approach for me – because I don’t have the time to mtb for hours at a time that often due to work / family / kids / dog etc.

Which is why you're not bike fit...

Which is why you’re not bike fit…

If you have a particular weakness (or even just general weakness) then just riding more is a very inefficient way of fixing it.

Have you ever tried lifting to improve your riding? If you found no benefit it would be interesting to hear what type of training plan you were using.

Switch foot? Obvs this has always felt odd but a couple of times yesterday at a baked hard / dry Rowberrow I’d put in a few pedals and ended up right foot forward. Didn’t feel quite as odd as it has done in the past / maybe I need to practice some switch footed descending

Some people are just more comfortable/dominant than others.
Makes very little difference to me personally but then I do snowboarding goofy and bike not. Other's it freaks out completely so it's largely personal.

I disagree with this approach for me – because I don’t have the time to mtb for hours at a time that often due to work / family / kids / dog etc.

I can often grab 45 mins in the garage on a morning before work – so if I can make use of this to improve my fitness for riding then why wouldn’t I do it?

Also, you look at top mtbers, they’re supplementing riding bikes with gym stuff, when they have unlimited riding time pretty much.

Erm ... they are professionals and have unlimited time and you/I don't.

Specific to your current challenge: I find doing a day's uplift on the HT works wonders for when I ride the FS but even an hour or so on the HT riding DH or park really exercises the exact muscles in exactly the right way for me. I did a day's uplift early autumn on the HT and my legs were knackered... did one last week and they were just tired... did one on the FS and its pretty much no muscle tiredness at all.

In the same way I try and do a mid week ride even if its just 40 mins or so... even if its just 40 mins of bimbling. [I'm mid 50's so take that into account but I find spending 40 mins mid week just doing a local loop makes a huge difference to maintaining fitness]

I spent most of my riding time winter doing rides with mates (and taking a HT if they were on FS)
Doing bike parks and DH on the HT
Doing some pedal days and getting some midweek bimbles in.

Seems to have worked wonders.

Thinking about it, it does seem a bit strange that only one leg is getting pumped. I mean, if you are putting more weight on the rear leg then surely your rear pedal would just end up moving down.

I wonder if it's a mobility issue rather than a strength issue? Perhaps your hamstring is tight when you're in the attack position and your quad is having to also 'pull' your torso down as well as support your weight? Maybe or maybe not but it sounds like there is an issue somewhere in the hip hinge. I would think about incorporating some Romanian Deadlifts with a view to increasing the range of motion and strength.

Or maybe see if there is any useful info here: https://www.bikejames.com/strength/how-to-improve-your-balance-and-body-position-on-your-mountain-bike/

I disagree with this approach for me – because I don’t have the time to mtb for hours at a time that often due to work / family / kids / dog etc.

I can often grab 45 mins in the garage on a morning before work – so if I can make use of this to improve my fitness for riding then why wouldn’t I do it?

I agree. 45 mins is a rushed, insufficient ride. 45 minutes of exercises is an ok duration.

I've had more luck with plyometric training for descending legs than out right weight work.

Box jumps to squat and straighten, squat springs (squat to to straight up jump and catching it in a half squat on the landing) that kinda thing.

I can't really switch feet and it would be a terrible idea to try on anything remotely technical. I'm very dominantly left foot forward but I'm right footed but pretty two footed when it comes to playing football. Who knows

I get this too, it helps to stand higher on the bike, a 'high hinge' I stress of a 'low hinge' in the terminology of Lee McCormack

Once the frosts have totally stopped I could possibly could squeeze in 45 mins on the local pump track on my bmx which may help I guess.

Will take all the above exercises and give them a try and see what works best.

I rode my hardtail last week on an evening - I normally get out for 1.5-2 hours on an evening ride in the week and then somewhere between 2-3 hours on a weekend. Week night is generally Ashton court / Leigh woods / Bourton Combe, then the weekend I try to take in Cwmcar / Risca or FOD off piste. Did Rowberrow on the weekend just gone and the full red run top to bottom (from Christmas Trees) I got a right leg pump by about 2/3rds the way down. I think I was going through all the roots / dips etc at a fairly brisk pace on my Sentinel.

Just to add I’m not, not bike fit - I can happily do 40km with 1250m of climbing if I need to - just when really attacking downhills over say 1.5/2 mins I find I need to dial it back a little.

Scienceofficer

I agree. 45 mins is a rushed, insufficient ride. 45 minutes of exercises is an ok duration.

It really depends on how you perceive it.
Obviously it won't replace a good 6hr ride... and if you think that way then of course it will seem rushed and insufficient.

However once you accept its 45 mins then you can benefit.
I've met lots of people pop out over lunch (there is a bloke works for the railways rides at Edenbrook in his hi-viz.. and another I see guy works near Rogate goes over lunch).
Frankly anyone can go at it for 45 mins on a pump track gets a medal from me.

Personally I found it transformational come weekend in lots of ways when I can't get riding in any other way.

For one thing if I'm riding park I'm "warming up" a step or two above - I'm pretty much dropping in where I'd be after a couple of runs.
If I'm pedalling then I find my fitness didn't feel like it slipped so much and a bit like the park it's like I'm further along a warm-up than I would be if I didn't.

Both of those sorta translate to me getting more out of the longer ride-times than I would otherwise so much so I've been doing "double rides" weekends and meeting one group in the morning and another after lunch whereas previously I'd probably be knackered after the 1st ride or less likely to want to then set off on a group ride with a load of fresh people.

So perhaps you could say its doing 2x 5-6hr rides that's making a difference but I don't believe I'd be doing 2x rides if I didn't get the midweek in.

Joebristol

Just to add I’m not, not bike fit – I can happily do 40km with 1250m of climbing if I need to – just when really attacking downhills over say 1.5/2 mins I find I need to dial it back a little.

I think there is bikefit and bikefit... lots of "bikefit park riders" would struggle to do 40km and 1250m of climbing .. it not only uses different muscles but uses the muscles completely differently .. its the combination of holding a position that doesn't pump lactic and repeatedly being hit by a jackhammer...

45 mins would be some going on a pump track (for me)... and if nothing else you'll be getting the heart rate up...

Yeah maybe I’ll dig the bmx out in the next few weeks. Just I love my Marino and Sentinel more than the scaffolding pole bike with crap brakes that feels twitchy and clearly just wants to kill you.

Bmx looks nicer than it is. The rear brake (the only one that actually does anything) howls like a banshee on the way to the pump track. Obvs you don’t actually need the brake on the pump track.

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Weak glutes

Get a race bike Joe, a. 20” wheel race bmx with aluminium frame will be lighter, longer and with a slacker head angle than that Haro.
The 45 min pumptrack session might kill you but the bike won’t be trying to 😉
Will also have a V brake so you won’t be worried about stopping.

Haha, throwing money at a new bmx is not the answer!

Leg press - calf raises, one leg press. Farmers carry on tip toes. Leg extension back and front. Increase cardio - steps walking and cycling longer distances/build strength and endurance.

Throwing money at bikes is always the answer!

I go snowboarding all winter 🙂

joebristol

I’ve not had any feedback about sitting too far back but maybe that’s because it happens more on long descents – whereas with coaching you tend to be more stop/start sessioning bits of a trail. As I get tired I can feel like I’m going further back on the bike a bit. Need to keep working on that I think.

I rode my hardtail last week on an evening – I normally get out for 1.5-2 hours on an evening ride in the week and then somewhere between 2-3 hours on a weekend.

I'm sure the BMX/pump track will be fun and benefit cardio but everything you describe seems to me like what you need is "DH bikefit" that is being able to not pump away lactic at the same time as adsorbing the shocks through the same legs and core then do it again and again - plus or minus some pedalling.

Howsyourdad may be half joking (perhaps) but it's the same thing or very close as snowboarding ... ... and the problems with core strength might not be directly core strength but that you're over using core strength to compensate. In other words the more tired your legs get from supporting you against the hammering the more you transfer that onto your core.

Again a bit obvious, I'm just saying to acknowledge that your core does need to be able to keep you in the correct position but ultimately it seems what's getting to you is the constant hammering you're taking.
For all the "stuff" in a gym it seems you really need something that hammers your legs and core like descending does just in an accelerated way... hence why I suggest getting the HT down some gnarly stuff.

It's possibly worth saying WHY I started doing DH/park/uplift on the HT in the first place... It wasn't that I had identified this as something to work on but that my knee is knackered on and off very specifically for pedalling. It looked like I was going to be limited to bike parks so I might as well make the most of them and I find Rogate, my local more fun on the HT.

Before I started this I'd suffer pretty much what you are describing and the unexpected or certainly unplanned benefit is I don't get this anymore on the FS and the approximate time I get this on the HT is when previously I'd have got it on the FS.

I think what I'm saying is based on my experience (and a couple of mates all of us mid 50's who decided to start doing the same) is that if you start using the HT where you'd use the FS you "toughen up" the "descending bikefit" so that when you have massive days/weekends etc. and do go on the FS it's no longer the weaklink.

I did start to pump up the leg on the hardtail last week - sort of a winch and plummet ride rather than a circuit. Just local woods - mixture of flowy hardpack with sections of roots or rocks. Taken at speed it was tiring. If I hammer too much rocky stuff on the hardtail my right foot hurts - I injured it last year somehow (suspect trying to smash round Cwmcarn on the hardtail with xc spds and shoes on) and it’s not been quite the same since so I just need to balance that.

I did a leg training session Sunday and then did a 5k run yesterday - it hurts today I’m the transition from standing up to sitting down so there’s definitely room to improve leg strength and endurance with weight training and running.

Will try to make most mid week rides hardtails ones too and see how it all
comes together.

I think pump track is more cardio fitness and obviously helps technique for pick g up more free speed on trails.

https://www.bicycling.co.za/news-people/greg-minnaar-on-longevity-back-flips-brandies/

Due to a badly injured right knee, I bear most of my weight on the left leg and on long descents it does get painful.

Regular hip flexor stretching for as long as you can hold is what works for me.

I used to get tired legs when descending, doing squats solved it surprisingly quickly for me.

I used to get tired legs when descending, doing squats solved it surprisingly quickly for me.

There’s hope for me yet then!

joebristol

If I hammer too much rocky stuff on the hardtail my right foot hurts – I injured it last year somehow (suspect trying to smash round Cwmcarn on the hardtail with xc spds and shoes on) and it’s not been quite the same since so I just need to balance that.

I'm the same pedalling with my knee... its kinda unpredicatable in that I can go and do 50k and not have much pain next day or I've set off bailed in the first 500m and then been in pain. I have at least narrowed it down to hard seated climbing...
A bit totally opposite in some ways especially since its uphill, seated and pedalling and I can mitigate it wearing clips but I get what you mean by balancing it.

Yeah it gets sore if I hammer too much rocky stuff at speed on the hardtail. I reckon I might have fractured a bone and it’s gradually repaired but it can aggravate it. I’ve ditched those pedals now so I’m not tempted to try them. I’ve got Nukeproof horizon clipless and Nano Evo flats and they are both more supportive.

Yeah it gets sore if I hammer too much rocky stuff at speed on the hardtail. I reckon I might have fractured a bone and it’s gradually repaired but it can aggravate it.

Not sure what the answer is but worth considering if this is what's up with the descending>
Are you favouring the other ankle because of this ???
Just sayin as something for you to consider - I fractured an ankle on a tiny drop - no idea how it just went crack audibly - luckily I guess it bothers me walking but not riding but might be worth seeing if you can get it checked??

I’ve ditched those pedals now so I’m not tempted to try them. I’ve got Nukeproof horizon clipless and Nano Evo flats and they are both more supportive.

I'm a big Nano/supportive fan (even though I'm only size 8 .. I'd have some Vaults but £££ and I'd need 3/4 sets) .. but clips I use the CB DH pedals (HT) or CB Enduro (on the XC bike mainly) ... took advice on here and went for the most supportive "feels like a flat" I could get and glad I did.

Another retrospective bonus really... I went with clips as most of my mates are on FS and local trails have a lot of "up-down-mid-gnar" by which I mean rooty enough to bounce the back wheel about but still needs to be pedalled hard.

TBH the clips still scare the daylights out of me (5 mo in) on bigger jumps and drops so the pedals get changed over for spicy stuff then I have to be extra careful with my knee climbing.
Funny thing is everyone I assumes I put the clips on for "pedalling efficiency" but the result is pretty much the opposite.. instead of using the most powerful part of the stroke I pull it round so I lose efficiency rather than gain it.

Body position has been mentioned but I've found it's not so much being 'weight back' that is the issue but more weight too low. I would always resort to a crouched ,'having a sh*t' position when things got steeper/, faster until someone told me to stand up a bit more. It made a massive difference to back leg burn. Work on your core (planks) to keep that position strong.

https://www.youtube.com/c/RoxysRideInspire/videos

I find this can be as simple as a relaxation thing.
I normally get a bit of the old leg burn* on my first long descent.
Then once I've relaxed into things I'm ok for the rest of the day.
Well at least until I'm done and start feeling cramp creeping in.
*Always my right trailing leg.

Body position has been mentioned but I’ve found it’s not so much being ‘weight back’ that is the issue but more weight too low. I would always resort to a crouched ,’having a sh*t’ position when things got steeper/, faster until someone told me to stand up a bit more. It made a massive difference to back leg burn. Work on your core (planks) to keep that position strong.

That’s quite interesting - when being coached I’ve been told to keep some bend in the elbow / get low over the middle of the bike on tricky steep stuff. I guess that puts more strain on your upper legs. I feel way more in control of the bike in that position though. Perhaps I could stand up a bit taller on less tech stuff to ease the pressure on my legs a bit.

@singlespeedstu

I find this can be as simple as a relaxation thing.
I normally get a bit of the old leg burn* on my first long descent.
Then once I’ve relaxed into things I’m ok for the rest of the day.
Well at least until I’m done and start feeling cramp creeping in.
*Always my right trailing leg.

Not sure on this - could be a bit I suppose. Last night I got a little bit just on one trail - the whole rest of the time I was fine. Although the descents were only just over a minute long in some local woods. I was seeking out some pbs (which I got on almost every descent) and pushing quite hard and some of the sections have cut up quite a lot with braking bumps - about 2/3rds of the way down I had to stand up tall to relieve a bit of tension / burn before attacking the rest of the trail.

My legs were a bit tired at the start though from leg weights Sunday / 5km run monday - I had a rest day Tuesday on the leg front (just did back / biceps weight training) - and a sweet spot turbo 45 min session Wednesday. Today is a total rest day from anything.

That’s quite interesting – when being coached I’ve been told to keep some bend in the elbow / get low over the middle of the bike on tricky steep stuff. I guess that puts more strain on your upper legs. I feel way more in control of the bike in that position though. Perhaps I could stand up a bit taller on less tech stuff to ease the pressure on my legs a bit.

I think bikenski is talking about straightening your legs a bit, not your arms. The natural fear response on a bike tends to been straight arms and bent legs, when what you really want to do it bend your arms and straighten (but not fully lock out) your legs.

I think there’s something in leg position - I did about 1000m of climbing and descending at Cwmcarn / Risca today. I found I do sit down / back a bit sometimes - especially at speed. Made the effort to stand up a bit straighter in the legs a few times and it eased the burn a bit. Going to keep concentrating on this as well as smashing out some extra leg weight training and running. Hopefully I’ll get to a good place for the end of June mtb trip 👌

Ben Cathro does a good video on body position. Around 5min20 is really useful.

Takes a while to get used to it if you're used to being low at the back, but it does mean that, with only a slight bend in the knees, that your legs are in the most effective position for suspension.

For lifts I would have said focus on deadlifts (a must, will strengthen legs, back and glutes) and back squats (less quad dominant + back squat will strengthen more of the posterior chain, plus more similar to bike position) primarily and then mix in good mornings, Romanian deads, hip thrusts, lunges and step ups. Would also do classic kettlebell swings (hip thrust not squat) and planks. Maybe some explosive exercises if you want to train explosive power, but I don't think that will really help with fatigue.

Wouldn't bother with calf raises, they will be worked sufficiently with the other exercises and shouldn't be a limiting factor anyway. Also wouldn't bother going over 8 reps for most exercises - strength is built with heavier weights and lower reps, endurance is built on the bike. Could do more reps with things like lunges, step ups and kettlebell swings however.