Very unlikely. You have NO IDEA how hard it would be to get her kids 'taken away' even if I said "she's putting a fag out on the kids face as I speak".
given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis I do have a fair idea of how things work. my experience of SS is that once you are on the radar they do not let go. and that is not a bad thing for children that are at genuine risk. it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts.
What if the driver had an accident or, worse, they had an accident on the way back and went to hospital etc?? How long would they be on there own then? Not knowing where mummy and daddy had gone?
what if they both fell down the stairs at home and broke their necks? What if there's no battery in their fire alarm? what if their boiler is leaking carbon monoxide because they haven't had it serviced?
OP needs to speak to her, get the full facts and then come to a decision based on the facts.
Nothing bad happened, and nothing bad happened to any of my friends who were in similar situations.
Other people also exist. Maybe bad things have happened to people you don't happen to know?
we know she works. does the husband or is he a stay at home dad?
if they both work then surely they have provisions in place for the care of the kids during the daytime (school/full time nursery)....if they can do this then why can they not do the same in instances as this...is it really worth putting your kids at risk for the sake of saving a bit of hassle/money for a babysitter?!?
Other people also exist. Maybe bad things have happened to people you don't happen to know?
Right... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.
..it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts...
The "safeguarding children's team" advice is to report [b]potential concerns[/b], and let the relevant team collect the hard and fast facts. If at that point they feel it's a waste of time, so be it, and they will drop the case.
If you suspect a child is in immediate danger, ring 999.
It has to be a 'fail safe' system, not a 'fail dangerous' one.
The right thing would be to report it.
DrP
EDIT:
In reference to "given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis", can you make it clear why you think the OP shouldn't report then? Not being facetious, but if you deal with these cases, then you would have had child protection training, and would have no hesitation about reporting?
my GFs dad used to be a social worker. he told us he had seen on too many occasions an older sibling accidentally kill a younger one when left in a room on their own: more babies than 3yo, tbf.
but still, imagine if they get up and do something silly.
lizzz - MemberRight... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.
Madeline McCann
my experience of SS is that once you are on the radar they do not let go
Wow they appear to have more resources where you are than where I am.
I suspect you mean monitor for a bit rathe rthan vi it every week
I would report]
]given the high profile case of the Mc Canns I cannot believe anyone would do this]
I once ran out of sugar and can get to the shop and back in 1 minute but still did not leave just in case nver mind go for 30 mins +
Madeline McCann
So one then. 🙄
lizzz - Member
Right... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.Madeline McCann
that's a daily mail argument isn't it though..
because in a way, you could take this back to the old risk assessment debate..
maybe we shouldn't take our kids out in cars, they are far more likely statistically to be hurt in a car than in their sleep..
kid wakes up , no parents in the house ..... kid gets flustered ... falls down stairs. or youngest wakes up and starts screaming , older kid realises theres no one home and tries to help the younger kid and does harm ?
i can think of plenty ways it can go wrong without any intervention from evil people.
I wasnt left in the house till i was at old enough to understand where they were going and who to contact if there was a problem - aged about 20 😉 ... seriously though it was 11 or 12 yo.
Is it so hard to imagine that one of the children might wake up and go looking for their parents and end up leaving the house and going down the street. There are plenty of very sound reasons why leaving your children for an hour and being so far away is a really bad idea. I don't understand how some people seem to think its not very serious.
No Yunki it really happened. It's relevant to the OP too.
See trail-rats post to save myself echoing his words...
Lizzz - So you think one is OK, fine your choice. How about if it was one of yours?
The issue here is the [b]potential[/b] for harm, in an unnecessary situation.
Yes, a car trip is dangerous (and may be classed as unnecessary), but if a child is strapped in appropriately, the necessary precautions have been taken. A car trip without an appropriate car seat = unnecessary risk.
Regardless, it's not the same as you couldn't argue neglect if a car accident happens (ruling out dangerous driving etc), but this is a case of neglect.
My views have been heard - OP - do the right thing and alert someone.
I'm going to post links to cheaper items on the classifieds.....
DrP
I feel guilty when kids in bed and I am working in the garage on something. Garage is integrated and under the eldests room, doors locked and child monitor turned vol and sensitivity to max and next to me. No way i would drive off somewhere even for a couple of minutes (mine are 2 and 5).
EDIT:
In reference to "given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis", can you make it clear why you think the OP shouldn't report then? Not being facetious, but if you deal with these cases, then you would have had child protection training, and would have no hesitation about reporting?
You might want to read back my couple of posts. At no point have I said don't report per say. What I said, and I'll say it again because it is enormously important, is that the OP should establish at least some of the facts and the background before making an informed decision to report or not.
Amen DrP
yossarian, I don't agree, it's not the OP's job to investigate this. The information he has now suggests a real risk of serious harm. He should report it and people who are paid professionals trained to investigate these things should then, er, investigate it.
kid wakes up , no parents in the house ..... kid gets flustered ... falls down stairs. or youngest wakes up and starts screaming , older kid realises theres no one home and tries to help the younger kid and does harm ?
this is why we should be in possession of all the facts before our witch hunt..
equally as likely is that both kids are safely tucked up in their bed/cot.. child safety gates on their doors, no hazards or history of waking with a friendly neighbour keeping an ear open..
like I said, I wouldn't do it, but I've been brought up as a proper bedwetting ward of the Nanny State
I'm sure the parent would hate it if anything happened to their child while they're away. Sometimes people need educating or a good kicking in the ass.
Social services I would hope will do both!
FFS he doesn't have to [i]investigate[/i] this. He should talk to the woman, find out what her circumstances are and then act.
You might want to read back my couple of posts. At no point have I said don't report per say
Fair enough - I accept that.
However, he may not be in a position to get her to speak openly any more, or she may deny statements she's already mentioned. My worry is this may alter the OPs readiness to make a report.
I accept it's not an easy thing to bring yourself to do, however.
DrP
don't raise it at work other than that you expect appropriate childcare to be in place when she is on a works "do"
do
I would report that behaviour to social services.
DrP is the man to listen too, a small contact from social services explaining the error of their ways should probably correct the behavior, if not then they get involved more
I agreeit's neglect
it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts
on that criteria the public would never report anything as they could never be in "full posession of the facts" unless they were perpetrating the harm themselves 🙄
Apart from the obvious safety matters discussed at length I have two 5yr olds who very rarely wake in the night but sometimes they wake up upset after a bad dream. If they don't find us quickly they get more upset. If they then went round the house and couldn't find us they would be devastated.
I couldn't bear the thought of me jollying it up whilst my kids cry themselves to sleep alone and scared. It's just cruel and wrong.
[i]I offered to pay for a taxi home but she got all defensive and said we were worrying over nothing. [/i]
At what point was this, before/during/after? And if before/during, why didn't she just take up your offer, I'm sure her OH would've been happier.
tbh We've kids and wouldn't have done it at their ages, but have done for 10-15 mins when a bit older though - and if they got held up maybe neighbours/family would be able to let themselves in.
At what age do folk think its ok? If I remember recently the Govt decreed that the single parents with young kids couldn't use this as an excuse/reason to turn down a job - can't remember the age, but it was younger than I'd leave mine for a few hours.
As for SS, if you do, make sure you tell her it was you - I'm sure they'll thank you...
I don't think he needs to 'investigate' anything beyond finding out if someone has had a conversation with her by the time he gets back (and if not, then he should).
And make it clear, that despite her assessment, providing some sort of cover (babysitter, friendly neighbour listening in for an hour, etc.) is essential, and if he gets wind of the same happening again he'll be making a call straightaway to the appropriate authorities.
I think the OP is beyond reproach so far in what he's done; the only thing I'd have done differently would be to insist she has a taxi back rather than her husband coming. I had to do the same for a colleague once who wasn't drunk but was probably close to if not over the limit but was adamant he was OK. He was annoyed at the time but the next day he thanked me for not backing down.
Re: the slim chance something would happen; I agree in likelihood it would be OK. But it's not just the question of what's the risk (which in itself is a combination of likelihood of happening x severity of outcome if it did), it's also a question of what's the ratio of risk to benefit. And when the benefit is saving a few quid on a babysitter or taxi which iirc the OP said he'd pay anyway, I wouldn't be taking that risk.
I offered to pay for a taxi home but she got all defensive and said we were worrying over nothing.
because it's normal behavior for her, you would be setting the expectation that she or her husband should always get (and pay)for a taxi
you have a legitimate concern, call SS and give them the details
As for SS, if you do, make sure you tell her it was you - I'm sure they'll thank you...
personnally I don't give a flying f*** what someone who neglects children thinks of me, if they aren't neglecting them then they don't have problem and will get over it
You now have a duty of care (DEFINATELY MORAL maybe professional) to pass this information on to a professional agency who can deal with this ASAP. This is DEFINATELY a SAFEGUARDING issue and you MUST deal with this. Imagine the scenario where someone has been watching that house and knows exactly when parents will be out and when to make a move. After last nights disclosure, YOU are now the one who needs to do what is LEGALLY required. Every county has what is called a MASH team. (multi Agency Safe Guarding Hub) Anyone can make a referral or make a call for advice. They will then take over and deal with the situation appropriately. I have the Devon number if you are in the area.
As matter of interest can you vouch for all the people there last night? are they all CRB'd? Because they now know where 2 vulnerable and unsupervised children are located.
If you are in Devon, I will make the call if you dont. You DO NOT have enough experience to say "I'm sure it will be fine" or "if I have a word then she will stop." You MUST PASS THIS ON.
Call me if you want a chat. This is VERY important.
This thread is amazing. Even though there is no legal minimum age below which children should not be left at home alone folk are wanting to shop the parents to social services. For all we know the kids could have been perfectly safe and the parents might have taken every precaution to ensure that the kids came to no harm. It is possible and maybe even probable that what they did was legal.
Isn't there some weird clause about not leaving an under-16 in charge of a younger child? So - you're allowed to leave one child at home alone, but not with a sibling.
once again I am absolutely astounded by the awful, awful people that think it's completely acceptable to take their moral outrage straight to the authorities for them to deal with..
no wonder communities are so splintered and isolated..
For god's sake get a sense of community will you.. I blame a generation brought up to run to teacher.. And for members of the community that are meant to hold positions of responsibility to be perpetuating this nonsense is despicable..
What's wrong with communicating our ideas to one another instead of all this passing the buck at the soonest opportunity..?
Wot yunki said
On a serious note, my wife went out and I put the kids to be and then went out to garage on the turbo for an hour. Felt bad after about 20 mins leaving them and I was only in the garage with the door open and I told my oldest where I would be.
Decided from now on just to wait untill wife gets back.
I'm still not sure what I did was bad.
The under 16s looking after younger kids is simply that the parents are responsible when someone under 16 is looking after younger children.
Scots Law includes that the child must be deemed to be responsible before they can be left alone.
Simon-Semtex - I've reported your post as there is no need for personal insults.
Ta. I knew there was something.
For all we know the kids could have been perfectly safe and the parents might have taken every precaution to ensure that the kids came to no harm
Pretty sure this would have involved a responsible adult being there- going out and leaving them alone is neither every precaution or perfectly safe, its not even close
JY - and you know this how? What makes you KNOW that there wasnt a neighbour or closeby family member keeping an eye on them? Baby monitors have a good range you know.
Glupton no problem. Glad 2 see you are focused on what really is the main problem here. Someone being challenged on their lack of knowledge or 2 CHILDREN being left on their own.
My level of knowledge is fine thanks. Mine is one of the more tempered stances in this thread - think of it as refusing to crucify someone without having the full picture and all of the fine details.
She and her husband are stupid and irresponsible, but it isn't your business to cross into her personal life and especially to bring it to work.
Agreed on that at least,reporting her to the ss will result in her being on a watch list, and may well cause serious upset amongst family memebrs and if they ever go for another job involving elderley or children eg crb checks.
Just perhaps some of those self rigtoeos people who never take a risk will also be reported for some of their failures.
Agreed on that at least,reporting her to the ss will result in her being on a watch list, and may well cause serious upset amongst family memebrs and if they ever go for another job involving elderley or children eg crb checks.
Becasue if something happened to the kids, that [b]wouldn't[/b] cause "serious upset"?
think of it as refusing to crucify someone without having the full picture and all of the fine details.
I think everyone so far agrees with this, that's why they are suggesting the OP leave it to the trained professionals to investigate and assess. OP, you must not make the decisions for the professionals, you do not have the skills or the full facts, let them handle it.
You need I act on DrP's advice, he is 100% correct both morally and from a legal safeguarding perspective. Worrying that some people think this is an OK situation. Questions need to be asked and challenges made by the appropriately skilled professionals who will make an informed decision about any form of intervention.
Look.. I'm going to make this my last post as this thread has really got my hackles up and I don't want to upset anyone or get myself banned..
Maybe I was being slightly unreasonable given that there are kids lives at stake here..
The one question I think that you really need to give your fullest consideration before you proceed is:
were there any eagles nearby at the time..?
JY - and you know this how? What makes you KNOW that there wasnt a neighbour or closeby family member keeping an eye on them? Baby monitors have a good range you know.
Well we could all make assumptions about facts we dont know and make some guesses - if this is the case it will be a short visit from SS Oh if we are playing the lets make wild guesses and assumptions game then what makes you so sure they had not locked them in their bedroom and dont feed them properly after all we have no information about this at all just like your monitor scenario.
here are the facts we have from the OP where she never mentioned your assumption in her defence
why would they need looking after they were asleep. Everybody at the table knows her children are only 3 and 5 and that she lives a good 30 minutes from the restaurant and were as shocked as I was. Several of us challenged her about this but she thought it was fine and from the conversation it was something that happens quite regularly
Preety sure you would have mentioned the mystery momnitor help.
Its not great parenting and the proper peole can decide how bad it is
Just perhaps some of those self rigtoeos people who never take a risk will also be reported for some of their failures.
I would have no issue with anyone reporting me if I do this with my kids if that helps- as for taking risks i am not sure what you mean tbh. its your job to keep them safe not expose them to risks.
I am not advocating wrapping in cotton wool just simple perecautions like not letting a 3 yr old cross the road without help or leaving them home alone- you know being a parent that sort of thing.
