recently by a car (he was on a bike). His pelvis is shattered and he's been in a coma for some time.
He's just had his first kid.
If you commuted into London today by car (or any major city with a train station) - I want you to do him the favour of justifying it in this post.
Could you not find a place with a ******* train station?
Sorry to hear about your mate, hope makes a full recovery.
I travelled to work via bus today, as im currently rebuilding my wheel for my bike.
I don't have to justify my means of transport to anyone, though I understand your frustration and best wishes to your friend. However, there is no need to be a dick, accidents happen. He could have been hit by a bus, lorry, pedestrian, crashed from a pot hole.
We all take a calculated risk when travelling to work regardless of choice of transport.
While not wanting to cause offence and clearly it's a sad time for you, there's no need to justify it at all and this stands out as a slightly mental request. Just because your friend is injured. For all we know your friend could have jumped a red light and embedded himself in the car entirely at-fault.He could have been injured anywhere, city centre or out in the sticks. Re-direct the anger into something positive.
Good point raised though, far too many people think they're too good for public transport and have some sort of God-given right to drive a car into crowded cities when there are options available.
(Opens beer. Goes back to watching footie)
Hope your mate makes a good recovery though. Must be a tough time for his family.
Quiet chuckle at Elfin stirring...
And, more importantly, sorry about your friend. Good luck to him and his family.
Far too many cyclist think they are superior for not using public transport/car.
yah bollocks! The op and elfin are right. In a factory you are not allowed anywhere near the rotating or moving machinery without a guard and safety kit. we need to start applying the same principles on the streets. Cars suck, they are so flipping dangerous surely in these modern times we need to grow up and stop ruining peoples lives just for the sake of the petrol driven ego.
Sorry to hear about your mate. I hope he recovers soon.
Do you know where / how the accident happened? I ask because it helps to draw attention to accident 'black-spots' so the council can make it safer for cyclists imperiled by 'bad roads'.
I cycle into central london daily (for 3 years) and if you pick a good route - use a cycling superhighway for example, and obey the rules of the road .. it shouldnt have to be a risky activity.
Not using the tube keeps me fit and TBH paying London rent, I cannot justify spending an additional £130+ a month on public transport.
I cycle into central london daily (for 7 years) and if you pick a good route and obey the rules of the road .. it shouldnt have to be a risky activity.
Not using the tube keeps me fit and TBH paying London rent, I cannot justify spending an additional £130+ a month on public transport.
im currntly laid up from a 10yr old on a microscooter stepping out on me and busting my heel and ankle on the way home though
Sorry to hear about your friend..
I think the OPs request is perfectly rational.. it's a valid question.. [i]can[/i] you justify commuting by car when there are other more responsible alternatives..?
My family don't do it.. because of where we live..
If our circumstances were different I imagine that we might.. and I'm pretty sure that our only excuse would be convenience..
I cycle into central london daily (for 3 years) and if you pick a good route - use a cycling superhighway for example, and obey the rules of the road .. it shouldnt have to be a risky activity.
I cycle into central london daily (for 7 years) and if you pick a good route and obey the rules of the road .. it shouldnt have to be a risky activity.
apologies to the OP but...... How effin similar are those two paragraphs? ( yes I am bored)
edit: hope your mate makes a full and speedy recovery.
I've just had a phone call from three of my mates who are stopped in my house in the Lakes. They were phoning from Barrow General Hospital. One of them did an involuntary dismount on an innocent enough track near Torver. He has dislocated his shoulder and broken his collar bone and is being kept in overnight. Apparently his helmet took a hefty knock and saved him from adding a head injury to his woes.
They reckon he must have hit a smallish rock that he didn't see a glancing blow at speed, which converted his considerable foreward momentum instantly groundward.
Rocks!
Whilst it is unfortunate that this chap got injured, but people use a car because it is convenient for them and they have the freedom of choice to do so. Plus motorists pay road tax, so IMO cars have a legitimate reason to be there, and all cyclists should ride with the presumption that all motorists cannot drive.
Seems a little ridiculous to castigate motorists for commuting using their car, they pay a fair sum to do so, and I for one, could I not commute by bike, would much much rather be in my car on my own listening to 5live than on a train with a load of strangers irritating the hell out of me.
Plus motorists pay road tax, so IMO cars have a legitimate reason to be there, and all cyclists should ride with the presumption that all motorists cannot drive.
There is no such thing as road tax. It was abolished in 1937!
[s] his helmet took a hefty knock and saved him from adding a head injury to his woes.[/s]
Move along now. nothing to see here. 😉
It's particularly amusing when the pompous advertise their assumptions.
Cars don't kill people, drivers do.
(except in the Stephen King book)
Is the missing word "WORKING"?
......a WORKING Train Station....with uncrowded trains that run regularly and on time all day, and through the night aswell, reflecting the open-24/7 modern city life?
yah bollocks! The op and elfin are right. In a factory you are not allowed anywhere near the rotating or moving machinery without a guard and safety kit. we need to start applying the same principles on the streets. Cars suck, they are so flipping dangerous surely in these modern times we need to grow up and stop ruining peoples lives just for the sake of the petrol driven ego.
🙄
Because all people who drive a car do so because it massages their ego and they're obsessed with it, not because it makes more sense than the waste of time public transport is currently. Give over and get a sense of perspective.
Whilst it is unfortunate that this chap got injured, but people use a car because it is convenient for them and they have the freedom of choice to do so. Plus motorists pay road tax, so IMO cars have a legitimate reason to be there, and all cyclists should ride with the presumption that all motorists cannot drive.Seems a little ridiculous to castigate motorists for commuting using their car, they pay a fair sum to do so, and I for one, could I not commute by bike, would much much rather be in my car on my own listening to 5live than on a train with a load of strangers irritating the hell out of me.
Loddrik the logic of this fails me, you are essentially saying that its ok to drive because its legal, therefore nothing wrong..
Do you know that slavery, rape, child labour and execution were all once legal, but they were wrong. I hope that when we finally see sense and sort out the national obession with motor cars we will be able to look back on this period and laugh at how terrible it was.
a sense of perspective.
3000 people a year die on the roads, because we all need to get to work on time, in a convenient manner. You need a sense of perspective.
It amazes me that the war on terror carries on to prevent terroism on uk soil when what 100 people have died int he uk in the last 10 years becasue of terrorism. Who gives a shit the real terror is motor transport.
Yes, and lets ban cycling too, it's ridiculous, and it fosters sanctimony and pomposity.
Yes, and lets ban cycling too, it's ridiculous, and it fosters sanctimony and pomposity.
It's good that you recognise that in yourself Loddrik.
I may be many things, but I'm not either of those.
Maybe as the world heads inexorably towards it's inevitable cycling utopia, those realists and pragmatists amongst us will have to eat our words...
I may be many things
Being really rubbish at being able to put across an intelligent, reasoned and fairly objective point of view is one of them....
Sad about your matey, but how can you take 5 tool boxes , a set of trestles,lengths of timbner, and me on a train.
They all went in my fully paid for van, insured by me,and driven safely, despite quite a few other motorists deliberately trying to cause accidents, to claim insurance payouts.
I'd love to be able to commute by car again, I hate commuting by train/tube into central London.
I'd have a better chance of getting to work on time for a start!
I'd cycle into London If it wasn't so far and I wasn't scared of being crushed. If I could take my bike on the train to Waterloo in rush hour I would too. I could cycle to the Wharf then.
Having a go at all car drivers is a bit daft to be honest.
Being really rubbish at being able to put across an intelligent, reasoned and fairly objective point of view is one of them....
But then it's not a yardstick I measure myself by, so it'll have to be in Loddrikspeak for the forseeable.
That's why my posts are considerably shorter than yours, I just don't care enough...
OP: I'm really sorry about your friend. And your anger is understandable. But maybe a bit misplaced expressing on a cycling forum.
Take it easy for a bit.
I'm young, so I'm not as good an example, but my father has commuted for three hours each day for nearly thirty years on hot, stinking, expensive trains - and could have afforded not to - so the argument, "[i]why should I get the train? They're rubbish. I like my car[/i]" holds no water.
I mean really, why stop there? "I like to use my phone in my car. Why shouldn't I use my phone in my car? I paid for my phone. I paid for my car, so **** you." It's a stupid way of looking at the issue.
This is going even better than the High Rollers thread.
My god that's it, ban cars and have world peace, get rid of the selfish zealots once and for all.
Maybe we'll even see a return of 'free love'..
Why stop at trains, they do kill a number of kids each year and provide a suicide route for dozens each year - make everyone walk. I have concern for others, but I have a limit. I draw my line differently to you, but I don't demand you change your line.
That's why my posts are considerably shorter than yours, I just don't care enough...
Well you keep responding to my posts so you must care a tiny bit at least...
I'm really sorry to hear about your mate, I hope he's on the mend. It can't be easy on his young family, and by the looks of it not easy on you.
I don't have to justify to you or anyone else how I get to work.
I drive a lot for work, and I have a responsibility to be careful and aware, as do all drivers.
I hope to god your mate hadn't run a red light when he got hit.
This is going even better than the High Rollers thread.
Poke the 'I love my car' mob just a teeny bit, and stand back and watch the fireworks... 😉
Awfully defensive for people that 'don't have to justify their choices', aren't they...?
It would be an interesting experiment to ban personal car use. Then everyone who has to cart around equipment/do site visits could still use them (commercial use being the exempt from the ban) and those who didn't need a car for work could get there by other means? Would need suitable enforcement activity, but I'd be intrigued as to the results, especially if the HSE could start to view driving as a work activity and subject to the appropriate controls e.g. training, safety controls, failsafes etc..
jhw, whilst Im really sorry to hear about your mate, you REALLY need to STFU.
I've been knocked off my bike at 25mph+ by a car in the past, I luckily bounced, bike didn't but hey ho. I dont go around saying cars are evil and people who drive them are selfish.
At the end of the say accidents are just that ACCIDENTS. Dont start getting all preachy and taking the moral high ground, its just further for you fall.
A car nearly killed me whilst cycling in 2000, should I be calling for the heads of all motorists because of the idiotic actions of one fool..?
Why stop at trains
But trains help everybody. There's a social benefit to offset the suicides etc. Drivers don't help anyone but themselves. Who are probably nice enough down the pub...
Seriously I bet you every last person who commutes into London by car on a daily basis has, or will, hit or nearly hit a pedestrian or cyclist. Does your reason for driving justify that?
I know we live in a society and all have to rub along. At a more primal level though it's fair to say I have views about people commuting in by car unnecessarily
knee> jerk^^^
I'd rather avoid all those shenanigans listed above by living (and working) 20 miles from the nearest city, in a semi-rural location within easy reach of a more than adequate town.
Oh, I already do. Lucky me.
Trains are expensive, dont run all day and night, dont stop where you want them, get delayed, and are full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.
A cyclist rode into me in London once when I was walking across a crossing on Cheapside in London....he jumped a red light.
Perhaps we should ban all forms of transport because all cyclists should be held accountable for his actions.
Agree with OP
You can rationalise the argument any way you like but we all know the truth about the motor car. It has divorced us from the reality of travel, polluted our towns, torn up our countryside and choked our roads in the name of convenience. It has destroyed our notion of community and emptied our high streets. If the motor car was invented today we'd condemn it as a crap idea.
Justify your usage 😉
But trains help everybody. There's a social benefit to offset the suicides etc. Drivers don't help anyone but themselves.
Trains don't help anyone, they're a method of transport just as a car or a bike is.
I bet you every last person who commutes into London by car on a daily basis has, or will, hit or nearly hit a pedestrian or cyclist.
What a nonsensical thing to say though, I've nearly hit everyone I passed, just by a large margin.
If you're a nurse driving in because they don't pay you enough to live somewhere with a station, get the train, but if you're putting people at risk without good cause, yeah, I think that takes explaining. Hence my OP.
You're putting people at risk no matter what method you take. No-one is at risk if you drive safely and pedestrians and cyclists go safely too. Sure, whinge about dangerous drivers (or cyclists, or stupid pedestrians who walk out in front of traffic) but don't complain about all of them with no justification.
Wait a minute didn't a maintenance train almost crash into a pedestrian train on the tube a few months ago. We should probably ban trains too.
Hang about...the other day, someone almost bumped into me as I walked round a corner and he was walking the other way.
We should ban walking too.
Trains are .... full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.
See? It's this kind of predictable idiocy that can be guaranteed on any thread like this. 🙂
There is very, very little justification for using private non work essential cars to commute into large cities like London. The Congestion Charge saw many people leave the car at home, and commute in by bicycle/public transport. If they can do it when there's a daily charge, why coon't they do it before? Hmm?
CC has had a massive positive impact on London. Such schemes are the way forward; force people to have to change their selfish ways that serve just themselves and not society as a whole.
I notice one or two on here defending their 'right' to drive have banged on about 'benefit scroungers' and the like, yet are too blinkered to see how socially irresponsible they are themselves...
you have to conclude that yer average stw petrol head is an utter nutter..
project - MemberTrains are expensive, dont run all day and night, dont stop where you want them, get delayed, and are full of self rightous people who hate cars, because they cant drive.
Rubbish.
Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.
Trains are cheaper than driving? Nonsense!
Liverpol to euston return, around £150, or £80-90 in diesel.
That is horrendous, I hope that your friends condition improves soon. I imagine that his wife/partner is having it almost as tough. Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs, but you may be able to help her more directly at this time by running errands etc as well as the obvious emotional support you could give. I guess that depends on how close you are.
Nothing to add to the transport debate, this is a better way than most to vent your anger so crack on...
It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?
Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.
We've had this argument before, but I'll state it again as I can't let that lie...this simply isnt true in either of the places I've lived, and is compounded when you "have" to have a car for other reasons so already pay the one-off costs.
I think the real hole in my argument is that there's a bit of a straw man in it: in truth I seriously doubt there are many people who use cars when trains are available, because trains are, well, easier and cheaper.
I don't think anyone here is really suggesting that all other things being equal it's fine to use a car rather than a train. I bet those who drive in do mostly have good reasons. Money, mainly.
Not overly happy about conflating what happened to my friend, the exact circumstances of which I still don't know and this wider, quite different subject -the OP was just my initial knee-jerk reaction, as said above.
EDIT - thanks for the kind words.
Trains are cheaper than driving? Nonsense!Liverpol to euston return, around £150, or £80-90 in diesel.
You really haven't thought that through!
Consider the other costs of car travel, and consider ordering your ticket in advance. Ways and means... Ways and means...
It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?
How long would it take you, at peak time, to do that journey by car?
It costs £250 plus to travel from London Euston to Wilmslow and back in peak times. How much would it cost to drive?
Depends what you drive? Depends when you book your ticket?
We've had this argument before, but I'll state it again as I can't let that lie...this simply isnt true in either of the places I've lived, and is compounded when you "have" to have a car for other reasons so already pay the one-off costs.
The problem is we now think it's ok to Iive wherever we like.
The motor car has created that illusion. It's just a case of how far you are taken in by it and whether or not you accept your own complicity....
Loddrick - and the rest of the costs of driving. And you can get ticket much cheaper than that.
Just checked - £35 each way in the train going down tomorrow morning and returning friday. Tickets available. So yes - cheaper than driving 2 hrs each way as well - so quicker than driving
From Chester to London 210 quid return, anytime,
car hire 35 quid plus fuel for 4 people.
Alot cheaper
in truth I seriously doubt there are many people who use cars when trains are available, because trains are, well, easier and cheaper.
I'm afraid you're wrong. The car is a status symbol, an extension of the owners personality, a statement to their peers and other road users. A train is just a way to get from A to B. Cars are worshipped by most people who own them. Car owners will generally opt for driving over Public Transport despite it being easier and cheaper.
I think it roughly takes 2 to 2.5 hours, although can't remember exacty.
I should probably point out that it's £65 return off peak. If you don't mind getting there at midday.
TJ - Nonsense, my wife does it twice a week, every week. Forget the 'headline' ticket prices, they are meaningless and are never available, and if you want to go at the times when you need to go, you'll pay a whopping amount more than that.
Plus I can assure you that my battered Touran is in no way a status symbol 😆
Though it is absolutely irreplaceable.
Loddrick - I just checked. Those tickets are available on tomorrow mornings train. So its not nonsense its the truth.
I think it roughly takes 2 to 2.5 hours, although can't remember exacty.
At peak times? Yeah, right. I'm talking Central London here, not Watford services.
I think it'll take you a teeny bit longer, really, don't you? Peak time remember...
car hire 35 quid plus fuel for 4 people.
So, come on, work out the fuel costs bearing in mind as soon as you get inside the M25 your MPG will drop dramatically, and will be ridiculously low once you're in town. And how many groups of four people regularly travel to and from exactly the same location? Silly example.
Oh, and I've left out CC and parking costs. Go have a look for daily parking fees in central London.
And if you're commuting that sort of distance daily, then you're just stupid, quite frankly. Either move closer to work, or get a job nearer home....
and you have to leave at 20.48. What use is that? if you need to go for work related reasons you need to be there first thing. And I can assure you that to get decent trains you need to book weeks in advance and there is NO flexibility. Try going up to the station and buying a ticket... You'll need to be sitting down when they tell you the price.
I can go and get in my car anytime I want, and that's the point, it's convenient.
Apologies, that was the train time - misread your post. Don't know how long it would
take to drive.
I travelled to wilmslow a few times to a clients office...not a regular commute. I personally wouldn't pay that much out of my own pocket to take the train, I'd find cheaper alternative. I wouldn't be surprise if you could fly from London to Manchester, then take a train to wilmslow for less that £250!
The problem is we now think it's ok to Iive wherever we like.
It is, unless you're expecting people to walk to their work. When train travel is (IME) more expensive, more restrictive and more unpleasant than car use why shouldn't you choose the better option? It's nothing to do with status (on my part). I love my cars, I really enjoy driving them and yes it probably colours my view of other transport to some degree, but I'm not an idiot, if there were a cheaper easier solution for me I'd take it. There's not. There never has been. I always use bangernomics on my commuter car and it never lets me down, I always come up far cheaper than train use.
You can rationalise the argument any way you like but we all know the truth about the motor car. It has divorced us from the reality of travel, polluted our towns, torn up our countryside and choked our roads in the name of convenience. It has destroyed our notion of community and emptied our high streets. If the motor car was invented today we'd condemn it as a crap idea.
Yossarian for pope. Top post. Chapeau.
9am train liverpool to london £35 single tomorrow morning ticket available
6 am train £55 - between those two times it is expensive.so you don't travel then.
Both those tickets are available fro tomorrow morning - quicker cheaper easier than teh car.
Trains are cheaper than driving, convenient, fast.
That would undoubtedly be true about 50 years ago, before Dr Beeching dismantled most of the rural train system - the old line runs about 50 metres from our house, and the old station is about 10 mins walk away. The nearest working station is quite a bit further...
coffeeking - MemberI love my cars, I really enjoy driving them and yes it probably colours my view of other transport to some degree,
So much so you deny the truth.
And if you're commuting that sort of distance daily, then you're just stupid, quite frankly. Either move closer to work, or get a job nearer home....
Not always possible, many people trained in certain restrictive fields need to travel to places distant for extended periods, but not long enough for it to be worth moving. There's an increasing number of jobs like that, and if you want to stay "in" with that field you simply have to do it, like it or not. Not everyone can run a corner shop in any location.
So much so you deny the truth.
Not at all, I've walked you through the calculations in a previous thread, you couldn't defend your point then, you can't now.
I hope your friend recovers. I am sorry you are upset. But you need to work on your perspective.
Peoples method of commuting is no more important than any other trip they take. People generally don't want to have accidents or hurt others - it brings guilt, it brings inconvenience, it raises your insurance, you get prosecuted, imprisoned or fined - its hardly something anyone aspires to. People do stupid things, make poor decisions in a brief second of miscalculation, but none of us are perfect are we?
Instead of hitting out at other people who are nothing at all to do with your friends sad situation perhaps you should lead the way and walk everywhere. Do you think you will never be the unlucky person who makes a bad decision? No one is flawless. There is no point in being aggressive towards everyone on this forum who has to drive to work, just as there is no point in your believing you yourself can never make an error or do something daft that has awful consequences.
Over confidence is a trip wire.
Coffeeking - I have shown you over and over again that trains are cheaper. An example just above on this thread.
You may want to deny it but its a simple fact.
Coffeeking - I have shown you over and over again that trains are cheaper. An example just above on this thread.You may want to deny it but its a simple fact.
No you've not, what world are you living in? Just because you've found one trip where, if you're willing to accept notable inconvenience and hunt for bargains, it is cheaper than driving doesn't mean it's true for all cases or even many cases. I've given you my requirements of transport and shown the prices are higher when using alternatives, and that's not even considering how inconvenient and unreliable they are. I'm not an idiot, im a logical person who considers most moves he makes - please don't assume you've more knowledge of my requirements than I do. Bear in mind that as soon as you carry more than one person (the norm for me) you automatically double the cost of train transport, you make no difference to car costs.
I find it interesting that car acolytes always quote the very highest price they can prossibly find, to try to justify their argument.
If we're playing by those rules, then can I calculate the journey by car using a Bugatti Veyron for the fuel costs? 🙂
And you'd still end up stuck in a jaym somewhere....
[img] 
[/img]
I find it interesting that car acolytes always quote the very highest price they can prossibly find, to try to justify their argument.
They don't, I never do. I always point out the monthly ticket prices in my arguments. Careful with your comments. And I genuinely can't remember the last time I was stuck in a traffic jam, it was literally over half a decade ago.
My old commute to liverpool was 5.60 return (cheapest day-purchase ticket, monthly was approx 20p cheaper if you only included working days in the calc) and involved a 10 minute walk at either end. The trains were unreliable enough that I if I HAD to be in work on time I HAD to get a train an hour earlier as they were often late/cancelled meaning the next train was over-full and went through the station without stopping. Helpful. In total it took ~1hr 10 mins end to end. In my car I could easily get 50mpg due to the open road most of the way, and it would cost me ~4.30 a day in fuel. Parking was free on-street and it took about an hour ish, sometimes a tad more, sometimes 40 mins if I went out of rush hour.
Now, when you consider that my insurance is £300, tax is 125 and wear and tear and servicing is ~150 a year that adds a further ~2.60 per day in "fixed costs", which then obviously out-weighs the train. But then you forget I carry a colleage in so you can then halve it. Add to that the fact that I make some really odd trips (like to the coast to kitesurf, places where there are no trains and I'd have to hire a car each time, or to MTB in the hills, or to see my family who live away from a city centre) and most of the time take other people with me and it totally writes the fixed costs off.