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summary what is the argument now?
Ta
Junkyard. I think it's mostly about proving strangers on the internet wrong.
Is McHamish right ? 😉
It was interesting at first but then it started getting silly and a bit personal.
Well I'm off - food to make and work to do, soundly in the knowledge that the car IS the cheapest option for me and my use. People with an adgenda will constantly try to prove it wrong, and quite frankly I don't care as I know what is the case in my situation and I do re-assess fairly frequently. The only cheaper option is cycle commuting, which I do at times and in this case I do happily admit I pay the expense of driving for the convenience. But it isn't cheaper to get the train.
Incidentally at my current location the bus is £1 each way just to get to the train, which is £4 return and from there the subway is £2.40 return to get to 10 mins walk from my work. The car is £2.10 in fuel and 50p a day parking. Ho hum.
Very sorry to hear about your friend, that's terrible and I hope he makes a full recovery and that the driver is dealt with accordingly within the bounds of the law.
I'll get to work any which way I choose though.
Of course the cost of the car is depreciation - the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for is the depreciation. divide that my the years you own it and thats your annual depreciation. its cost to be included.
Your very own figues you used above show the car is more expensive than the train
Of course the cost of the car is depreciation - the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for is the depreciation. divide that my the years you own it and thats your annual depreciation. its cost to be included.Your very own figues you used above show the car is more expensive than the train
I know what depreciation is 🙄 and since I could still sell my car for the same value now as I bought it, the depreciation is zero. I said the cost of the car is not depreciation in itself, loss of value is and there has been none so far in 3 years, I got a good deal on it when I bought it and I'll do my best to maximise the value when I sell it in a few years, but it'll be a good few years yet.
Any my very own figures do not show a car is more expensive, are you getting confused and lost in the numbers? My numbers show that an individual journey MAY be cheaper on train (but often not, and never with more than one person in a journey), but when you include irregular travel the savings of a car shoot through the ceiling.
Oi you two pipe down will ya, I'm trying to get some sleep, just agree to disagree or something 🙄
just agree to disagree or something
TJ just can't accept that, for some people, cars can be cheaper. I can quite happily accept that for some people trains are cheaper, he does not seem to have the common sense to see the opposite is possible. And if you add to that the fact that to buy a house like the one I have in the gardens I have in a location nearer to public transport that might make it cheaper for me, it would have cost me approx 50K more. Takes a lot of journeys to offset that.
Coffeeking - your very own dubious figures show that the train is cheaper for the journey you looked at despite your protestations.
Coffeeking - your very own dubious figures show that the train is cheaper for the journey you looked at despite your protestations.
Only if taken in isolation and ignoring the second person I was carrying. If you wish to mis-quote figures to suit your ends, go for it, I can't be arsed arguing any more. What's more, the current location car commute costs are approximately 1/3 that of the public transport costs and 1/3 the travel time, which wipes the floor with your point.
I understand both sides, but CK, you are missing the point here (wilfully I reckon). It's NOT about the cost to you personally, although I also understand that you're fighting a corner you've been forced into...
The OP's point was that many of the car journeys undertaken on our roads could be replaced with other means of transport - it's not a wishy-washy utopian dream; it could very easily be a reality if more people like you (and me) actively sought to promote public transport. The first step is to use it, no matter how shonky it is.
Wouldn't you be happier relaxing on a comfortable train to work?
EDIT: and good on ya for car sharing - it's a start....
The OP's point was that many of the car journeys undertaken on our roads could be replaced with other means of transport
Of course, but when the costs are notably higher and it's notably more inconvenient - no, it's not worth it. Happier relaxing on a comfy train to work - no, I can't even grasp the thought process involved there to be honest. Well, I can, but it assumes I dislike driving and find it a stress, and that trains are more comfy and less crowded than a drive to work with a friend and a chat. I don't, it's part of my relaxation each day.
user-removed, I think CK is making a perfectly understandable point that for him it is financially better to use a car than to travel everywhere (not just commuting) by public transport. He was even good enough to leave out the convenience part of the argument. TJ is insisting that he is wrong on the basis that for one bit at least the train would be cheaper.
Oh, and the OPs point was that some *** damn near killed his mate and he wondered if we could all justify that fact that the car drivers here were almost guaranteed to do the same to someone else so * put up of get of the **** road!!!
The OP has got over his initial shock thankfully and somewhere in the middle the messages of support for his mates situation, as well as his, have got through and I really hope your mate is ok and soon jhw.
But then as we are all typing and not chatting face to face that is just the way inflammatory arguments go dont' you find?
p.s. I commute by car, much more convenient that the collection of busses I would need, and more flexible but am slowly trying to commute by bike more and more to save my own little bit of world/mind/health.
EDIT- damnit CK, you started going on about relaxation and other emotive stuff whilst I was typing! OK, he has mainly stuck to plain facts 🙂
CK - it's still all about you, your wallet and your convenience - I suspect this is due to teh internets. I honestly don't care whether or not driving / trains are a slight inconvenience to you or not (I'm really, really trying hard not to say, "See the bigger picture here").
Tracker - I agree that we're all on a budget, 100% of the time, and that as humans, we are predisposed to wring every last drop out of our resources, be they our fields, our wallets or (bigger picture) our descendants' future. And again, good on you for getting your leg over (the bike).
EDIT - and CK, how do you think trains will become uncrowded, comfy places for you to have a relaxed chat on your way to work? Bingo - use them, ply them with money...
Justify commuting by car?
Because buses and trains don't run early enough for my 7am start.
Because my morning commute is 25 minutes by car but the same journey is 1h30 or longer by public transport (when it runs).
Because the trains couldn't cope with many more passengers anyway.
Because the UK's roads are among the safest in the world.
Because it's a free country.
Sorry about your friend but I'm not going to decide how I travel based on one accident.
Sorry about your mate, hope he pulls through.
Cars are bad blah blah blah, the argument will rage for all time. But there will never be a middle ground because regardless of how people travel, their way will always be better than anyone elses.
I think the OP's comment was about not using a car in an already overcongested city and the effect it's had on his mate and his family, but there's also no reason to be a dick about it.
Each to their own
OP - I hope your mates alright - and if he's feeling glum cos of his accident - show him this thread - hilarious 🙂
I drive 30 miles on my commute, then I bike into central London - except on the days when I bike to Guildford then get the train. I am confused about how benevolent/evil I am.
"See the bigger picture here"
I can see the bigger picture and I plied them with my cash for the best part of a decade and saw no improvements, none have occured since despite passenger numbers sky rocketing, prices rising above inflation and zero investment in rolling stock, I spent all my travel time standing (exacerbating a knee injury) or sat on a seat with not enough room for a 6ft 2 person. While I [i]could [/i]keep doing it for another 20 years and possibly see some improvements, I'm not willing to wait that long while doubling my travel time, being ill more frequently and getting more stressed on the way home rather than less. While the bigger picture is nice, you have to take your own interests into the matter too, being entirely selfless is stupid. IF you want to see the bigger picture, switch off the PC now, walk everywhere and never post a comment on here, if not you have to accept that we all draw the line somewhere, I justify my line by costs and what I consider a reasonable level of convenience. If you draw yours elsewhere, so be it. I've no argument with people using a train if it's sensible and easy for them and if the service is suitable, and I'm against people driving if the only reason they choose to is because they think they are special and have a nice car, but likewise I don't like seeing people assuming they know more about a strangers travel options, making the rather massive assumption that they are more enlightened than the other person and the other person clearly hasn't thought it through. I almost expect TJ to say "calm down dear", while mis-quoting everything I write. 🙄
Yes, a well balanced, happy person who has had a pleasant journey to work will be more productive and able to go home ten minutes earlier and further the cause of the human race and the planet we live on. I can see that.
No-one here is entirely selfless - as I said earlier, I make my living through shifting large amounts of gear from one place to another in an old, exhaust-spewing car. I have to - it puts food on the table.
May I ask why it took you 20 years to decide to have a car (no assumptions here about your changing circumstances and it was never meant to get personal - I treat all arguments on the internet as a discussion with a computer)?
I don't like seeing people assuming they know more about a strangers travel options, making the rather massive assumption that they are more enlightened than the other person and the other person clearly hasn't thought it through.
Unfortunately many of the people who do make these assumptions do tend to be more enlightened than the other person. Note, I said many, not all!
The use of private personal motorised transport has become the default option, despite in a huge number of instances it being more expensive, more time consuming, more polluting and more detrimental to society.
In so many cases people just haven't thought through the options available to them, maybe it's due to lack of information (God knows how difficult it is to wade through all the PT operators websites), maybe it's due to social pressure and the aspiration to own a car. Personally I think it's primarily due to apathy (with a significant factor also being status), why change the status quo? "My car use isn't harming anyone, why should I change?"
jhw is the best wind-up merchant on here.
Plus motorists pay road tax, so IMO cars have a legitimate reason to be there, and all cyclists should ride with the presumption that all motorists cannot drive.Seems a little ridiculous to castigate motorists for commuting using their car, they pay a fair sum to do so, and I for one, could I not commute by bike, would much much rather be in my car on my own listening to 5live than on a train with a load of strangers irritating the hell out of me.
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My journey to work is buy car not because of the cost (which is cheaper for me) but more because of the time it takes by public transport. Even riding to the station at the home end and having a desk that allows me to hear the train announcements with the window open where I work it would take me 1h45 to get to work by train. The same journey takes 1h-1h15 in the car. So that's 1-1.5 hours a day i "gain".
The train costs £15 return and my car uses about £7 a day in fuel. Insurance is £2 a day for all my vehicles and the rest of my car costs are covered in the way I run cars. So for me it is quicker and cheaper and therefore a no brainer.
Elf how can you get on your soap box about car drivers being dangerous when a few days ago you was bragging about getting done for jumping a red light on your bike. You could have caused an accident through your irresponsible action.
And how many people here drive to trails to ride their bikes?
it would take me 1h45 to get to work by train. The same journey takes 1h-1h15 in the car. So that's 1-1.5 hours a day i "gain".
I don't know what you train would be like, but when I catch the train I often take work with me. I can then use this time productively so the 1h45 (x2 = 3h30) would be part of my work time. So that would be saving you the 2-2h30 you would "lose" driving.
Mind you, I doubt I could cope with a daily commute of 2-2h30 driving anyway! Probably just cut my losses and move house to somewhere closer to work or change job...
My employer wouldn't count that as working time if I did do work on the train (and there is a limited amount I could do) so I'd still have to do my 8 hours in the office on top. So for me there would be no saving by working on the train.
This is a new job for me, 2 months in to it now pretty much. My work is pretty specialised and I love where I live. I'd much rather spend those 2 hours a day in the car and live in Sheffield with trails everywhere and my friends than move to Halifax which doesn't strike me as a great place. There are no jobs doing what I do in sheffield right now or I'd have taken one. This will be for a couple of years then who knows where I'll be.
Hope your friend recovers soon.
And how many people here drive to trails to ride their bikes?
Some people will drive for 7 hours on an Easter weekend.
My employer wouldn't count that as working time if I did do work on the train (and there is a limited amount I could do) so I'd still have to do my 8 hours in the office on top. So for me there would be no saving by working on the train.
Seems a bit unfair and backward of your employer to not allow you to count that as working time. I have encountered companies like this and it's a shame that flexible working isn't more widely available and accepted, especially considering the potential cost savings associated with it.
If your happy spending two hours a day commuting by car then so be it. I personally think it's a shame and I'd struggle to justify it to myself, but I'm not 100% convinced I'm in a position to judge your choices...
Peyote - Member
The use of private personal motorised transport has become the default option, despite in a huge number of instances it being more expensive, more time consuming, more polluting and more detrimental to society.
That is completely at odds with my experience of public transport. Also, relaxing or working on a train is an impossibility in my experience. I don't think in the two years I commuted by train that I ever got a seat. Even if you did they are too cramped to work or relax in.
The only time public transport has ever worked for me has been within the confines of a city. Notably the mighty No. 8 bus in London. Wait a few minutes at most, and occasionally even get a seat.
Seems a bit unfair and backward of your employer to not allow you to count that as working time. I have encountered companies like this and it's a shame that flexible working isn't more widely available and accepted, especially considering the potential cost savings associated with it.
My employer is generally pretty good with things but as a manufacturing company there is a requirement for me to the at the factory to do a lot of my work. I don't have enough work that I could do off site to fill 3.5 hours every day (and in reality with train changes etc it would be nowhere near this amount that would get done).
I'm not happy spending the time commuting, I much rather not have to (as my last job 5 minutes on the bike from home) but I need a job and wouldn't move to the area I got one in. Driving is the least worst option in this case.
but when I catch the train I often take work with me
I do this too.. but I'm a brickie.. which pleases the other passengers no end..
Most of the rail lines in the South East are already running at capacity. Should ex-drivers hang onto the outside of the carriages, or stop working for a decade whilst they wait for new lines to be built?
Public transport is only an efficient choice if you want to travel in the same direction as the existing routes. As soon as you diverge the journey time vastly escalates.
I do this too.. but I'm a brickie.. which pleases the other passengers no end..
😆
A full brick hod is nothing, try getting a folding bike on a busy train, then you'll see real abuse!
Most of the rail lines in the South East are already running at capacity. Should ex-drivers hang onto the outside of the carriages, or stop working for a decade whilst they wait for new lines to be built?
Somewhat melodramatic! Why don't you go the whole hog and accuse all those who think car use should be limited of wanting us all to live in caves, eat berries and wear hessian sacks*?!
*Standard MO.
Slightly more seriously though, most of the roads in the South East are already running at capacity too. The whole transport network is at the tipping point. The point is we all need to travel less. Mode shift is good, but if we're all making the same journeys the current network is in just as much trouble.
I don't think in the two years I commuted by train that I ever got a seat. Even if you did they are too cramped to work or relax in.
I use a Blackberry, so even while standing on a train (I can't remember the last time I sat down on a commuter train either) I can easily deal with e-mails. Even reading paperwork (A4 size) isn't too difficult standing up, it becomes a bit more problematic standing on a platform as a train hurtles past at 50mph, but thems the breaks!
I struggle with long sentences, but it is possible to drive a car safely, is it not?
I used to have a ninety minute each way daily commute (folding bike & train), then went to just doing that once a week, then fortnightly, then monthly, then barely once a quarter. Now I have a five minute off-road MTB commute. Clearly everyone needs to follow my example...
I do still own a (n old) car and couldn't do without it.
Clearly everyone needs to follow my example
I'm sure we would if we could.
You can.
You can tell a lot of people on this thread haven't commuted for an extended period on the London underground.
It's horrible...people are rude and aggressive, it stinks, it's too hot, it's overcrowded, trains are [u]often[/u] delayed (especially on the Jubilie line), you're lucky to get a seat, and it's expensive. Quite often I'll end up crammed in a corner bent double with someone's smelly armpit in my face and another elbow jabbing me in the ribs just to get to the damned thing. I've encountered many rude people who work for London Underground and Southwest trains, but as soon as you talk back to them they threaten you with police action and state a zero tolerance policy for aggressive passengers. Then the gits go on strike for more money and they earn more than nurses already! I then have to look for alternative transport out of my own pocket.
I'd like to avoid the underground as [u]I HATE IT[/u], but Southwest Trains will not let me take my bike (unless I buy a Brompton or something) on their trains at peak time. I could cycle to my office from home but it would be a 52km round trip, and i live in London! I'm not a morning person so doubt I would have the energy for that every day, so might have to take the train sometimes, but that costs in the region of £15 per day.
Anyone who [i]'doesn't mind'[/i] commuting in London has the patience of a saint (but then I don't have much patience at all!).
My annual train fare to get to work is £1,800. I also have a car as a necessity for personal transport so I'm not in the fortunate position of being able to avoid the cost of car ownership.
I can what? Work from home?
Ok, I'll let my employer know. Hope he doesn't fire me.
Southwest Trains will not let me take my bike (unless I buy a Brompton or something)
Then buy one..?
Molgrips - What does I struggle with long sentences mean?