[Closed] Lance is still the man

Lance has been destroyed because his Livestrong brand was becoming too powerful and influencing mainstream consumers.

The mainstream health message is corporate controlled. This is a VERY powerful industry.

Does Kaesae have a second login or a twin brother? So Lance was taken down because Livestrong raises the awareness of cancer? Personally, before those yellow wristbands I'd never heard of cancer. I am glad someone was telling me it existed so I could put a name to what members of my family had before Livestrong came along and have had since then.

We need to hear the real story now, not the USDA hatchet job and not Lance's continuing claims of innocence, my feeling is that the truth is somewhere in between.

I have been a Lance fanboy for years, but now have to admit I was wrong in proclaiming his innocence to everyone I met.

I still believe his tour wins should stand, but only because all of his closest competitors were also doping, perhaps they should have call it modified class racing or something.

Lance would get back a little of the respect he has lost if he manned up and told us the truth.

We need to hear the real story now, not the USDA hatchet job and not Lance's continuing claims of innocence, my feeling is that the truth is somewhere in between.

sneakyg4 - The question for you then is if you think it's a hatchet job, which of the witness statements is a fabrication? The USADA case is just a summary of what the witnesses told them. Sometimes the truth does not lie between two opposing statements because one of the opposing statements is an out and out lie.

I haven't really read the above.

Yes, he was still a top athlete, you have to be to get to that level. But, he is a liar, a cheat and a bully and a disgrace to the sport, so sadly he becomes no hero of mine as he once was.

I'd say the same of any sporting person I personally hold on a pedestal that might be also revealed to have cheated their way to success.

Lets forget Lance Armstong, and celebrate the future of cycling and the progression of the sport from today.

This line that Lance "just trained harder" is so absurd it makes me cringe.

Lance certainly trained *smarter* in that he and Ferrari were all over the team's numbers, as part of a structured doping programme. The USADA report, the statements, and in particular Tyler's book, make that all very clear.

Chris Carmichael was always stated to be Lance's professional coach, yet Tyler's book quotes various riders as laughing out loud at this statement. (Floyd: "Are you kidding me? Chris was just a beard"). They talked about how it was "Michele says this" and "Michele says that". Read the stories about Ferrari's old camper van turning up in laybys and being used as a mobile clinic.

The "trained harder" myth was put out there by Armstrong's camp, just like all the other myths. It's all part of the scam.

lance >= cancer

no one else gets a look in

I am not saying this is my theory, or even an opinion I agree with, but I have heard it said that LA was a very big anti-smoking lobbyist, and the lawyers working on behalf of the USADA are strongly linked to the tobacco industry.

Now this clearly would not make LA innocent, but as a theory, could explain why they decided to focus specifically on him.

As I said: Just something I read.

@mikey74
that was a statement made in the media by lance armstrongs own lawyers

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/must-read-armstrong-attorney-links-usada-to-big-tobacco_256518

i detect a bit of spin and bs was on the go

Ah, yes, that's right, it was 😳

Lance trained harder for the tour than any other rider

Ulrich, well at least he was enjoying himself in the off-season, he probably realised what a farce it all was long ago..

@mikey74 don't worry about it. His lawyers were throwing about more sh!7 in the media than a bored zoo monkey at half-term

This line that Lance "just trained harder" is so absurd it makes me cringe.

I certainly didn't say he "just" trained harder, but he certainly trained harder than (for example) Ullrich, who was his main rival most of the time. Or are we now moving on to saying he sat there playing on his PS3 whilst an intravenous drip gave him super powers, because I'm fairly sure that's more naive than anyone thinking he was clean!

Lets forget Lance Armstong, and celebrate the future of cycling and the progression of the sport from today.

If anyone even slightly wants this to happen, all drugs cheats and enablers need to be removed from the sport permanently and promptly. There also needs to be a wholesale change of personnel at the UCI.
Until this happens it will remain a sign that nobody's really that bothered about cleaning it up, just more sweeping things under the carpet until the next scandal makes them all look stupid again, followed by (yet) more empty promises "this time etc etc. Lets start from now".

certainly didn't say he "just" trained harder, but he certainly trained harder than (for example) Ullrich, who was his main rival most of the time.

Is that because he was taking more drugs than anyone else which allowed him to train harder?

Or are we now moving on to saying he sat there playing on his PS3 whilst an intravenous drip gave him super powers,

Nice straw man argument there.

[b]atlaz[/b] - I am not suggesting anyone is lying in the report (which I will admit I have only read extracts from). But it is a report written from one side, with one purpose, its not designed to be a reasoned argument its designed to convince you of his guilt, much like going to court and only listening to the prosecution arguments.

It could be that Lance could stand up hand on heart and tell us everything is as stated - but in reality a prosecution lawyer will gloss over positives in order to make a stronger case. So I stand by my belief that the truth is somewhere inbetween.

sneakyg4 - Member
But it is a report written from one side, with one purpose, its not designed to be a reasoned argument its designed to convince you of his guilt, much like going to court and only listening to the prosecution arguments.

Call me naive, but I don't believe/think organisations like USADA, CPS etc work in this way.

Given that all those that testified were also drug cheats, I think their testimonies should be disregarded.

The guy did so much for the tour and for cycling and will always be a legend in my eyes. When he was riding in the tour he was awesome, and it has never had the same excitement as it did when he was dominating.

Even when he was in yellow, he would still inflict suffering on those who were challenging him for the jersey.

He is the man!

atlaz - I am not suggesting anyone is lying in the report (which I will admit I have only read extracts from). But it is a report written from one side, with one purpose, its not designed to be a reasoned argument its designed to convince you of his guilt, much like going to court and only listening to the prosecution arguments.

Here's an idea. Just go to the USADA site and read the witness statements. Don't read the USADA report if you think it's somehow one-sided, just read the words of the 20-odd witnesses. Then come back and say what you think. Then read the report and say if you feel it accurately reflects the witness statements. Lance was given an opportunity to have his evidence taken into account (different to the arbitration hearing) but he refused to participate.

There's no point in saying you think it's one-sided if you've not seen the evidence and not read the report.

More respect for him than those who signed statements just to get a reduced penalty.

All he did was show he "had what it took" to win a dirty sport in a dirty era.....

.....still a winner - still the man

[i]Given that all those that testified were also drug cheats, I think their testimonies should be disregarded.[/i]

Honesly, you could be copying and pasting straight from a "Team Lance Press Pack".

How about

Emma O'Reilly?
Betsy Andreu?
Betsy's corroborating witnesses, Piero Bocarossa, Lory Testasecca and Dawn Polay?
Marco Consonni?
Renzo Ferrante?
Paul Scott?
Jean-Pierra Verdy?

The guy did so much for the tour and for cycling

Erm yeah.... massively discredited the entire sport. I call troll TBH.

All he did was show he "had what it took" to win a dirty sport in a dirty era.....

.....still a winner - still the man

So winning at all costs makes you 'the man' huh.. we could go to a Godwin's law post in one move from there )

So winning at all costs makes you 'the man' huh

Again, you're aiming your ire at one person when it should be aimed at the majority (if not all) of the peloton. I take it that you have the same hard line stance on the rest?
I like it actually, I also believe that all dopers should be permanently banned.

See... His achievements today are exactly what they were 6 months ago (ie, win lots of tours while blatantly being on drugs) And his downfalls are exactly the same too (being a doper, being a ****).

So all that's actually changed, as far as I'm concerned, is that now STW is absolutely overrun with repetitive tedious navel gazing. So thanks for that USADA.

northwind - are you saying STW is influencing the world's media? We wield much power!

He was the best in a totally discredited era, are we really saying that the clean guys were totally clean ? There is no single villain here the whole sport was to blame, if the authorities really wanted a clean sport they could have done much more to ensure it.

.

wrecker - Member

"So winning at all costs makes you 'the man' huh"

Again, you're aiming your ire at one person when it should be aimed at the majority (if not all) of the peloton. I take it that you have the same hard line stance on the rest?

Haven't seen any threads about how 'Landis is the man' or anyone else involved for that matter. The ire is being aimed at the man that some people are still trying to hold up as a hero/legend/whatever.

flanagaj - Member
Given that all those that testified were also drug cheats, I think their testimonies should be disregarded.

Been answered before, but just for you fella. 26 people testified, of which 11 are cyclists. So that leaves 15 that weren't "drug cheats" by my reckoning.

Emma O'Reilly: "Once my involvement in the project became known, Lance wasted no time attacking me and my reputation. Lance filed suit against the Sunday Times of London in the United Kingdom, and then sued me and L'Express, in France. Lance also tried to discredit me by publically referring to me as a prostitute and an alcoholic. The lawsuits against me were dropped or settled in 2006 but the damage Lance caused to my reputation remains"
[url] http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/OReilly%2c+Emma+Affidavit.pdf [/url]

Then there's Betsy's statement about Lance yelling he was going to "make one phone call" to Trek bikes to "f***ing shut him up", referring to Lemond.
[url] http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Andreu+Betsy+Affidavit.pdf [/url]

Frankie Andreu's email to Lance:
"If friends have an argument, which happens, then yelling, cussing, swearing and hand signals are fine. What I didn't appreciate was the threatening tone (not physical) and statements you said to me. "You don't know who you are dealing with, you don't want to mess with
me" "You'll regret messing with me, I'll make you pay."
We went from arguing about the reports to you saying this stuff
towards me."
[url] http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/BA+Attachment+D+-+1999-06+Lance-Frankie-Betsy+tiff+email+exchange+REDACTED.pdf [/url]

There's loads of stuff like this.

What a man.

Wrecker, that was just an example point on this idea that by winning in the way he did he deserves any credit. Check my earlier post, I have no time or respect for any of them who dope but Lance may well take the golden needle in all this. I also think Lance earned his place as the fall guy - win big, lose big. And yes, permanent bans for all involved, starting with the doctors and team managers who I think may be more responsible in all this. In LAs case, seems like he was the manager in many ways..

'Landis is the man'

.. for all that stuff he said about the UCI being fools, clowns and full of sh1t, actually yeah, he's the man )

'[s]Landis[/s] [b]LeMond[/b] is the man'

To me it's pretty simple. It's impossible to take the line that "he doped, but they all were", and still regard him as anything but a scumbag, unless you think it's okay to sue and possibly financially ruin people for speaking the truth.

I've been fascinated & repulsed by all the stories. I couldn't stop reading it. I've genuinely felt twisted by the sheer scale of this man's behaviour and corporate lies. I've never seen such a tale of hero to zero.

Not really into road biking, so like most of the public he's the only roadie I know. And what a monumentally unsporting sporting 'hero' he has turned out to be.

Very few sports people make good role models for the rest of us. "Win at all costs" is not a very inclusive philosophy. And to see all this drama & 'code of silence' and organised drug taking, just for a chuffing bicycle race??? What a pathetic example he and the rest of these lab rats are.

It's impossible to take the line that "he doped, but they all were", and still regard [s]him[/s]any of them as anything but a scumbag

I think it's possibly a fair point though that some other people are getting off quite lightly here, at least in terms of public perception.

Tyler Hamilton's 'vanishing twin defence' has to be one of the most ridiculous lies/excuses in the history of sport surely?

FTFY

Oh not this again. Most people don't mainly regard him as a scumbag for the cheating, it's for being a scumbag.

@ grum, and Tyler Hamiliton's book is up for the William Hill prize..

wrecker - Member

It's impossible to take the line that "he doped, but they all were", and still regard himany of them as anything but a scumbag

FTFY

How many of them sued and threatened to ruin people for telling the truth? This is just one of the reasons Armstrong stands out from the crowd.

How many of them sued people for telling the truth? This is just one of the reasons Armstrong stands out from the crowd.

Tyler Hamilton's 'vanishing twin defence' has to be one of the most ridiculous lies/excuses in the history of sport surely?

I loved that. If you're going to lie, make it a ****ing huge lie. I mean, the only way to go from there was to claim he was an alien and his blood was normal from someone from proxima centuri

Fair enough, single him out as a bully, scumbag or arse or whatever (and I agree, he is) but you can't single him out as a cheat or liar without applying those same rules to near all of them.

+1

And it wasn't his bullying, scumbaggery or arseishness (directly) which won him the tour, so that's a moot point, as he beat a load of other cheaters!

I did like Hamilton's response to all that stuff though. "Yeah I was totally cheating, I blood doped all the time. But! I never used anyone else's blood, so their test must have been faulty. He always sounds a bit miffed tbh, like "How dare you accuse me of that particular form of cheating! I am not that particular form of cheat!"

Tyler Hamilton's 'vanishing twin defence' has to be one of the most ridiculous lies/excuses in the history of sport surely?

I was under the impression that Tyler listed this a possible way that the blood test showed positive, i didn't think he actually used it as a defence. As i read it, it was taken out of context by the media and mountain out of molehill followed.

[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-says-there-is-no-new-proof-against-armstrong ]A clean, honest Spanish man think's Armstrong has been treated unfairly..[/url]