Happened to my mate a few weeks back. In my opinion its a weld failure but Kona have "investigated" and said that its not warrantable.
Not bad for a 3 week old frame!!
I think he was basically told "these things happen", whats in for the rest of us then!!
If it was the welds that failed, then this is not meant to happen!!!
Some may have already seen this as I posted a few weeks back, but pulled it so that it would not interfier with the dealings with Kona. So feel free to have a look at a brand new frame!
This is just my opinion on the matter.
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What frame was it?
JRA?
Test your opinion against Kona's with Trading Standards or in the courts?
p.s. what's the number on the bike for? Was your mate racing at the time?
That's quite a lot of damage to the front triangle for a JRA - how did it happen?
I don't really see how it was a weld failure as the tt and dt clearly bent before the welds failed...and bent tubes generally means the frame has hit a force that was too big for it!
Suck it up I'm afraid. You'vbe not said how it broke.
higgo - MemberTest your opinion against Kona's with Trading Standards or in the courts?
Small claims court can be done for £50 for claims up to £5000 IIRC.
If the product is under 6 months old its up to the retailer - not the manufacturer to show that its not a manufacturing defect.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html
Kona Kula Supreme 2009. Scanduim Frame.
Yeah, Scottish SXC race. I think he has given up with them as all they were offering was crash replacement.
Edit - Bought from the states so adds a bit more hassle to it. I disagree with that, I think the welds failed then the top tube bend as it was then a crumpled mess.
I'm not quite sure what happened but it was not a big impact. He got pitched over the bars and the frame was in bits when he got back up. Think it was a route he hit wrongly on a steepish bit.
do not ride rooty downhill sections on a kona .....
too mee that looks like bb weld went and the bike colapsed bending the top tube ....
when you see the welds its the actual welds that have broken not even the HAZ round them ! its so clean its like they have been cut !
Weld failure?????
2 tubes bent like noodles?
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This is just my opinion on the matter.
So. Let's get this straight:
Frame bought from US
Used for racing (ie - going fast)
Crash on a 'steepish bit' sending him over the bars
And, given that, they offer a crash replacement, presumably discounted.
Seems bloody reasonable to me!!
(As a serial bike breaker, I know what I'm talking about)
But you have to think, the tubes can only bend if the are not attached to the seat tube.... If not they would have only snapped. So the weld really has to have failed for the tube to bend down the way.
I disagree - if the welds had failed first, the tubes would have bent the other way, no?
Peter, yeah in theory yes.
However its more the fact that it looks like a weld failure than an impact failure.
So my opinion is that it is not fit for purpose.
Crash replacement an option but would you ride another frame that did that?
So the weld really has to have failed for the tube to bend down the way.
No it doesn't. That's not bent DOWN, it's bent BACKWARDS from the head tube, by leverage from the fork. Would you like to see a frame I broke in just the same manner?
That's been hit hard enough to bend both tubes (Like mine was) and then carry on and rip the welds off.
NO WAY did the welds fail first.
BIG crash = broken bike.
Live with it!
🙂
finbar - Presumably since i was on a steep bit it would be unclear if the bike was the right way up after the weld snapped hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
who's legal system would that fall under? Ordering from the states to the uk?
If it's the UK, small claims court, get your money back, job done. But did he pay tax when he imported it, could be difficult to explain if he dodged it...........
If its the US, write a polite letter mentioning a twinge in your neck that wont go away and expect multiples of the bies value.
Im not a lawyer.
Peter - did you damage the parts on your bike, funny how tyre, wheel, fork are perfectly fine. Wheel still true. To me they should be damaged to warrant that type of frame failure
BIG crash = broken bike.
peter you rode into a car .... this guy rode over roots !
[i]finbar - Presumably since i was on a steep bit it would be unclear if the bike was the right way up after the weld snapped hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.[/i]
Well, i wasn't there but like PP says i would imagine the only way to get enough leverage to bend the tubes like that would be to wallop the front wheel/fork. If the bike was upside down or back to front or something then there's no reason for the tubes to have bent in that location at all, even if the welds had failed.
Crash replacement an option but would you ride another frame that did that?
Yes. And I have done. You can't account for crashes.
🙂
EDIT - That particular frame was coincidently a Kona, too......
I agree with peter. That's been stuffed into something substantial enough to bend the tubes where they're designed to be strongest.
they were 28 spoke 1500 gram wheels also .... The bike litterally colapsed under the guy and he was thrown over the bars ! so possible the tubes bent when the bike was upside down. It also recieved quite a bit of manipulation to get it in the back of the pick up that took him off the hill to A&E
I think the bike just objected to having a classic Reynolds roadie tubeset number (531) and tried to shake it off. How did rider 853 get on? Did he die?
I would be astonished if either of those tubes bent after it snapped. I can't see where the bending forces would come from then.
peter you rode into a car .... this guy rode over roots !
No, he didn't RIDE over them, did he?
(I've been pitched over the bars by a root on a shallow slope just after a tiny (6in ?) step. The root was pointing toward me and must have been 2-3 inches long. I have a chunk missing from my nostril to prove that one....)
🙂
Exactly the same situation. Made worse by the fact it's a lightweight alloy race frame which is more brittle/snappable than my steel frame which was stronger and bendier
🙂
lucky the guys insured anyway and is having a nice orbea carbon frame to replace .... coke can is not an acceptable tubing material ....
gimmie easton tubes anyday like they used to id trust them
hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
No way would the impact of the bike alone be enough to bend both tubes like that.
funny how tyre, wheel, fork are perfectly fine. Wheel still true
Frame took all the force - seen it many times.
It's a light racing frame, you pay your money and you take your choice. Interesting lesson in warranty, sounds like money off a new frame is a decent offer in the circumstances.
Just had a discussion with a guy I work with. Digging out some old uni notes!
I am now going back on my original statement! (ashamed now!) Look at the bending forces the welds would not have failed first. They probably failed because they were not designed to be pulled downwards. So i now think its not the welds that went first.
However I still think its not fit for purpose. No one will really no the extent of the impact but I doubt it was much bigger than any of us come across on a weekly ride. So I think Kona may want to look at tehre tubing and strength issues around that area!
Bikes should not snap from a trail mishap. Riding into a car then maybe so!
I am not an engineer, but I am very sceptical that the sequence was: rubbish welds - bike fell apart - crash - massive bending of tubes during crash.
To my untrained eye it certainly looks like failure after a frontal impact - and it is quite possible for the fork and wheel to be strong enough to take that impact while the frame doesn't. the question surely is "Is the frame fit for purpose" ie strong enough to take the loads you would expect of a mountainbike and was the frame made properly.
Someone with the right skills should be able to tell from the welds if they have been done properly. It does look to me like like the sequense of events is
Frontal impact
tubes bend
welds fail
States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there, so whatever the percentage off for crash replacemnt will be off RRP. Prob will still be over price he paid for it. Not worth it.
Someone with the right skills should be able to tell from the welds if they have been done properly. It does look to me like like the sequense of events is
Frontal impact
tubes bend
welds fail
Agree with that now
"States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there"
Nope its cause there wasnt 1 left in the uk in his size to buy ..... he phoned every dealer on the paligap list ....was offered a 2007 one at RRP mind ....
sjs frame couple fitment perhaps :d
frontal impact - maybe the wheel got stuck inbetween the 2 roots he was riding over 😀
Here you go -
[img] 
[/img]
For those that don't know I rode into a parked car. Same effect as this crash. Bike comes to dead stop, rider over bars. Something a lot smaller than a car can have you over the bars, even the right sized dip in the floor can do it.
IDENTICAL method of frame failure to the Kona above: As the wheel/forks are pushed backwards they have a [b]LOT[/b] of leverage on the head tube which buckles the tubes upwards (My TT was pulled apart on it's upper surface too) Carry on like this a bit more and, hey presto, the frame looks like the Kona above and the welds are ripped apart. I'll hazzard a guess that the Kona is tougher round the head tube (Gussets, bigger tubing?) than at the DT/BB and TT/ST welds, hence that's why those gave out first.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH the welds failed first. If they had, the tubes would still be straight
weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
There is no way you could bend those tubes like that without BIG leverage, especially BOTH of them!
It's crash damage. Get over it. Suck it up. MTFU. Get the chequebook out. Stop making excuses. End of story.
Sorry kid, but dems da breaks...
🙂
States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there"
Nope its cause there wasnt 1 left in the uk in his size to buy ..... he phoned every dealer on the paligap list ....was offered a 2007 one at RRP mind ....
Was not aware of that!!
2007 at RRP, that is pretty shocking!
Glad its not my bike...
Still the damage into a parked car and that riding over a route, to me should be the pictures the other way around!
Race frame should be able to withstand small trail impacts. Parked car on the other hand, not sure if thats in the design specification! 😆
2007 at RRP, that is pretty shocking!
Mark ill give you 2 guesses who offered him that 😉
Top tube/seat tube weld looks like it hung on for quite a while!
How big is this mate of yours?
Double post
Replacement frame at cost sounds pretty good to me, bearing in mind you're talking about crash damage. If [s]you[/s] your friend doesn't feel confident riding a Scandium Kona frame after their crash, they can always sell it on.
From the blurry pic, it looks like a large frontal impact which bent the top and down tubes at the butting and then snapped the welds.
Bearing in mind your friend bought the frame in the US, they have little to no consumer protection over here - see BERR link above - as it wasn't bought here. Frankly, you're lucky Paligap has offered your friend crash replacement. See here: [url= http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/overseas/ ]overseas rights advice.[/url]
I don't know about Kona, but I've got an Orbea Alma with a lifetime warranty. So far, so good, but they stipulate that the frame is NOT covered if it breaks while being raced.
I haven't read the whole thread so maybe have missed something, but I would guess that it might be the same with Kona. You race, you invalidate the warranty. Next time take the number off!
PeterPoddy - that looks exactly like my old KHS Team frame - I rode into a 6" tall Landrover wheelrut and bent the downtube exactly like that. I told KHS' importer in the UK what had happened, and they offered me a crash replacement, which I figured was more than fair enough. This would have been in about '96.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH the welds failed first. If they had, the tubes would still be straight
I too have revised my opinion. It's clear to me that the bends and weld failures would have occured at approximately the same time. Although this hardly matters as it was a frontal impact big enough to bend the front end that did it.
IME you can have crashes that seems slow/low impact that do as much damage as the big ones. Light frames break. I go over the bars a fair bit without frame damage...on my Heckler!
PeterPoddy - that looks exactly like my old KHS Team frame - I rode into a 6" tall Landrover wheelrut and bent the downtube exactly like that. I told KHS' importer in the UK what had happened, and they offered me a crash replacement, which I figured was more than fair enough. This would have been in about '96.
Yeah, Sanderson offered me crash replacement too, but I'd already ordered my 853 Inbred.
How big is this mate of yours?
Yes that had occoured to me as well.
🙂
Race frame should be able to withstand small trail impacts
It's not the small impact that counts. It's come to a dead stop somehow and like I've already said it doesn't have to be very much of an obstacle to achieve said dead stop. You'd be amazed at the tiny root that had me over the bars at CyB.....
🙂
12 stone whippet - was in 4th at the scottish champs on the last lap at the time so its fair to say he was fairly light/fit
12stone is light now. Cool. Made me feel better today anyhow.
12stone is light now.
Sorry brant but from normal people point of view, 12 St is big 😉
it is when your above 6 foot 😉 and im sticking to it .... im 12 stone at 6 foot 3 ....
12st isn't whippet light, 9st is! And 4th at the Scottish Champs in Vets?
Is an odd failure given the description of the incident, but it might have been the culmination of a few crashes or such. Nice of Kona to offer a crash replacement, especially since their warranty states void if raced.
(Mr M-C, former metallurgist posting)
as other respondents have said there is no way a bending force could have been applied to the tubes if the welds failed first. As Brant commented look at the amount of bending on the top tube-the top tube weld has held on for dear life long after the down tube has bent to the extent that its weld has failed.
Ive seen frames fail in a similar manner in what look fairly innocuous situations, you dont need a huge amount of speed or a massive impact to apply a massive bending moment that will break a frame. Last one I saw was on a trailquest type event where the riders front wheel stopped dead in a drainage rut at the side of the trail.
Breaking bikes and bits sucks but I'd say that blurry, badly composed pic is an advert FOR Kona's weld quality.
How can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
Thats why I think crash replacement offered.
Shuld have bought carbon...
Mr M-C,
Thanks for that explanation. Far better than my ramblings, and now I see what Brant meant too.
🙂
MS, maybe the crash replacement was offered because it was [b]crash damage[/b].
Shuld have bought carbon...
...because carbon frames don't break? 🙄
warranty specifically says void if raced.
they can sell you a race frame with a warranty but if you race it no warranty.
How can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
I think you're confusing an express warranty by the manufacturer with an implied warranty, such as the "fit for purpose" definition that gets bandied about a lot.
If the warranty is defined by the manufacturer then they can impose whatever limitations they like, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Some manufacturers offer really comprehensive warranties.
I remember that when Banshee started up, some models in their line-up had a "if you break it, we will warranty it" policy. However these were not XC race frames.If you're arguing that a lightweight race frame isn't "fit for purpose" if it can't withstand what looks like quite a meaty frontal impact, I'm not sure you're correct.
MS, maybe the crash replacement was offered because it was crash damage
Read the whole thread.
Thats the thing, basically everyone has said on here something along the lines of "meaty frontal impact" from the damage.
But what if it was not? Big Impact = Big Damage (Usually)
Small Imapct = Big Damage ( Not usually)
supose its just sods law really. He was unlucky
But what if it was not?
12 stone, fast rider, crash sent him over the bars... hmmm, not seeing much in your posts to support this hypothesis to be honest.
This thread has just made me really paranoid as we had a big frontal impact on the tandem the other day - misjudged a foot high rock step and hit it hard enough to bottom the fork with a clang rather than hopping over it. No cracks or bends in the frame - phew. Crank n fail in being strong shock
TJ, be afraid, VERY afraid.
At least you'll be wearing a helmet when it does let go won't you?
😉
step back a bit - a frame folds when you hit a root?
I certainly wouldn't want to ride a frame that did that
step back a bit - a frame folds when you hit a root?
No. A frame folds when it comes to a dead stop suddenly, which happenes to be caused by a root, and chucks the rider over the bars.
Keep up at the back!
😉
I smacked one of Brant's finest into a downed tree a few years back, didn't hit [i]that[/i] hard but bust the down tube. I thought a half price crash replacement was bloody good value TBH and bit Brant's arm off for it, didn't even cross my mind that the frame might not be "fit for purpose" stuff bikes into things and they sometimes break...
No. A frame folds when it comes to a dead stop suddenly,.
SOMEONE IS TO BLAAAME!!
crap rider by the sounds of it
[i]Shuld have bought carbon... [/i]
That is very dangerous advice. If the carbon does fail, you then get splinters in your body, and because these are barbed they migrate towards the heart. You'll end up having whole limbs amputated just to save your life. That doesn't happen with aluminium.
C'mon people, what are you on about, just because it's a race frame doesn't mean that it makes it ok to snap like that!
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
Unless this was a truly mammoth impact that shouldn't have happened IMO.
This thread has achieved one thing, I would never touch a scandium Kona with a barge pole!
njee spot on!
This thread has achieved one thing, I would never touch a scandium Kona with a barge pole!
Agree!!!
The impact does not justify the damage IMO. yes there was an impact but from a route on the trail. If every spill ended in a frame snapping like that then what would be the point in getting a race bike. I race a carbon bike, no problems so far (touch wood). Will look out for thos submarine splinters!!
And if people say crap rider, you can just prove your point in results...
I find it very hard to believe that just failed from just riding over a root. As with all these things we can all sit behind our keyboards and offer an opinion but unless you were there...
Who's to say an impact before the race didn't already cause some stuctural damage?
As for the rider proving his skills with his results is nonsense, even the best riders in the world stack from time to time.
I crashed a Kona into the back of a parked car... the frame's fine (I'm still riding it 2 1/2 years later) although the fork was knacked. My advice is, if you're gonna crash a Kona, make sure it's a Hoss 😀
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
It's not that simple though - if you know you are about to go over the bars your weight is probably high and there is less force going through the frame. In this scenario (which we know a teeny bit of not unbiased hearsay about) he was going down a steep slope - hence his weight was most likely low and far back - producing more force on the frame in the crash.
Whose frame is it? I used to race masters, most in the top ten can (& have to) ride technical stuff well.
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
Two people on this thread, PP and I, have had that happen. Your own experience is not proof that it doesn't happen.
Let's go over a few things.
* MS' mate crashed it. We don't know a great deal about the crash, and from what I gather MS wasn't there in person to see it.
* MS' mate was racing at the time.
* MS' mate bought it in the US. Not the UK, the US. He then took it to Paligap in the UK, and asked for a replacement.
* Paligap offered a crash replacement, even though they were not the merchant, had no contract with MS' friend and were not the manufacturer.
* MS is now on an internet forum offering his opinion about it all.
* Not everyone agrees with MS.
brant - Member
> http://www.ragleybikes.com/2009/07/how-strong-is-the-blue-pig-frame/
br />
Interesting in the blue pig page (not the CEN one) - "...lighter guage seatstays can be used to promote sublime ride quality."
Have you not previously said that rear triangle stiffness has little effect on ride quality?
Cynic-al is talking far too much sense in his last 2 posts....
😉
YOU LOVE IT!!!
bent_adder just to clear things up,
He did not go to paligap, he went through Kona USA and the shop he bought it from. They then referred it on to paligap.
Offering my opinion, just like everyone else is. Free country is it not. Like to hear peoples views, and as you can read I changed mine half way through.
And to be honest there is no way of measuring how big the impact was, where his weight was, etc. Kona say not their problem (rightly or wrongly).
But it does make you think how strong is your frame??
MS - MemberHow can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
Thats why I think crash replacement offered.
Shuld have bought carbon...
Check your warranty... The Orbea marketing says the Alma is designed for racing, Absalon races one, yet the warranty doesn't cover it in the event of accident when racing... (But I guess Absalon won't have these problems!!)
Regarding the OP, I think I'd need a better photo before advising whether it's rideable or not!
But it does make you think how strong is your frame??
It makes me think lightweight frames are risky and Kona lightweight frames moreso...I'd rather have a 3.75lb frame in one piece than a 3.25lb in in two pieces...and that 1/2 lb is not losing the guy any races...