[i]The surf industry (manufacturers, athletes and journos) are a notoriously tight knit community. It took a ‘proper’ journo from outside of the industry to write a fact-based article.[/i]
Footballers are notorious drug takers both recreational and performance enhancing but up till recently, football has not had to run the media gauntlet that other sports have had to go through because of the enormous amounts of money that the football companies can bring into play to help maintain the status quo.
I'm glad, mainly from a 'round the table at work' chat arena, that this information is starting to be leaked via the press. Athletes from all sporting arensa take drugs, a lot. The sports with the least amount of money 3earning potential get exposed first, like athletics and cycling, the last ones to be exposed will be the rich and powerful ones, like football.
In answer to the OP, my experience of minority sports mags (surfing, waterskiing), particularly USA ones, is that they are very much advertiser orientated, I guess they have to be as the readership will be so small, so the mags income will very much depend on support from the industry. So much so that it's not going to be in their interests to ruffle feathers in the industry. IME any 'shoot out' artical between products is often only between products of current advertisers and no real best/worst conclusion is dared to be drawn. Many articals appeared to be just extra advertising space for advertisers ie "if you spend $X on advertising with us, we'll put your chosen products in other mag articals". I think this will be the case with the current Surfing mags, so I believe your conclusion is probably correct on that.
I haven't experienced this in MTB mags tho, certainly not to the same degree. MTB might be a minority sport, but not to the same degree as surfing or waterskiing.
Chipps,
Your remarks are professional, I salute you. Just check out this thread from UKC which is rampant at the moment. I would not expect or ever hope to see anything like this in a professional mtb magazine/website, where the 'pro' journalists name people in person!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=436710
The closest we have to an investigative journalist in our sector is probably Carlton Reid from Bikebiz who does chase down all sorts of different stories.
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/british-bike-association-is-not-the-bicycle-association
TBH I think that UKC article (I haven't read the whole thread) is absolutely spot on. Dealing with specifics and not hiding behind generalisations.
If only there was similar honesty and directness in MTBing I think it would be ultimately constructive (and refreshing).
Anyone remember the guy from up northeast who was Transition's importer / ditributer for a while? An utter crook and failure as a business man (I know one (of the apparently many) young riders who paid him money to get a cheap frame under a "grass roots" programme who never saw a bike or their cash again). I don't recall his activities getting much coverage in anythign other than forum posts.
Investigative journalism doesn't have to be all drugs, corruption and court cases.
Take this report of Mountain Mayhem for example.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/06/glorious-mayhem-stories-and-results-here/
Mountain bikers, the people who ride bikes, enter events and buy kit, might be interested to know all sorts of things like...
Where was the highest placed 29er, 1x9, singlespeed, or fully rigid ?
What was the course like ?
What tyres were the winners using ?
What was the solo pit area like ?
And so on.
All these things would be of interest to anyone wondering what bike or kit to buy or what events to enter next year.
Instead, we get another page of press releases about tents and sleeping mats.
Anyone remember the guy from up northeast who was Transition's importer / ditributer for a while? An utter crook and failure as a business man (I know one (of the apparently many) young riders who paid him money to get a cheap frame under a "grass roots" programme who never saw a bike or their cash again). I don't recall his activities getting much coverage in anythign other than forum posts.
Sounds like a good story. I would suspect that rather than trying to cover things like this up (as the OP suggested happens) the MTB press just don't have the training to confidently report crime stories.
To be fair I never saw Car magazine doing any features on dodgy car dealers - it's probably really only of interest to people are affected by it.
The recent Giant 29er recall woudl be interesting though, I think - with all the FEA and testing done to get a product to market and then have to recall it - I'd like to understand how the 'real' world differed from the tests and what the manufacturers are doing to change the tests to mirror what happens when people ride them.
There are a few things that make me smile in the bike mags (rarely Singletrack). I was looking back through some old mags and found a WMB where someone asked how to remove square taper cranks when the threads had stripped. I've done that by removing the bolt and riding the bike, their response was cut it off - big risk of cack handed frame damage imho.
I seem to recall the old MBI publishing fairly unresearched routes as well.
As for reporting "crime stories" then a publisher has all of the libel issues that would accompany such a story.
There are no truly bad products out there now
Maybe not in terms of function when new but journalists rarely keep hold of anything long enough to learn too much about long term reliability, which can be shockingly different from one brand to another.
Just ask anyone who has spent a couple of years in a LBS and they'll tell you which bikes come in for linkage bearing replacement most often, which brakes are a pig to get bled, which high end cranks wear their splines at the slightest provocation etc etc.
... and now we hand over to Kate Adie reporting live from interbike.
While I'm in the mood for a rant, I have yet to see any of the MTB press make a feature of the ISIS/External bottom bracket debacle ie how with either of those systems you have to spend the best part of £100 on a BB to get one that lasts anywhere near as long as even a budget square taper item.
Surely such flawed technology should be worthy of journalistic interest?
As someone who's spent a considerable amount of time working in publishing, I can say with some authority that
a) You don't hear the half of it. When I worked at the Guardian, we knew loads of juicy stuff that we wouldn't have dared to publish as it would have created, literally, a war zone or absolutely ruined individual lives. Something Wikileaks has presently thrown out of the window.
b) Every publication has its own agenda. With some obvious notable exceptions, this isn't very sinister. Its just self-preservation
You want investigative journalism? Look to the web. The very nature of printed media means it lacks the immediacy. Especially seeing as most publications are printed monthly. So any publication that wishes to survive must alter its content and become less 'news' based. They just can't compete. So to try to would just hasten your own demise. You have to divert your resources to where they'll be most beneficial (see point b)
I think ST is a prime example of a company doing this really really well. You want news? Go to the website. You want well-written and detailed content. Read the mag
And as to accusations of toadying to manufacturers? Have you read any of Mike Ferrentino's articles? They're the polar opposite of this philosophy
Oh and bear in mind that if you walk into any room containing journalists, designers and photographers - and its after lunch - most of them will be drunk and/or coked up 😉
binners has just made an excellent argument for proper in-depth reporting, though.
If magazines are all fluffy press releases, their website are even worse. Which is OK considering what they are for... Quickly spreading the latest information. binners is right that having such information in the magazine becomes increasingly pointless.
BUT, that strengthens the argument for proper in-depth articles. Well researched and well written. That's where spending time looking at the farce of mountain biking's governing bodies would be good. That's where looking at the kind of long-term experiences of riders would be important. I'd love to hear a Paxman style interview with Raceface about how utterly useless their BBs have been since square taper. Maybe they wouldn't want to give a response - but anyone who doesn't read internet forums wouldn't be able to guess how terrible they are.
Agree with most above that mtb journalism is just entertainment rather than any kind of investigative journalism, as Chips points out there is not a massive amount, of thats sort of thing, that would be of any interest.
The point posters have made before about drugs and cycling/sports is a good one, the whole Operación Puerto case only featured a relatively small number of cyclist compared to the footballer's and tennis players name connected with the scandal, but there governing bodies and the press didn't want to know. Jan Ullrich was thrown out of the tour, Rafa Nadal (who was connected, no idea if actually involved) was issued with pitty from the Wimbledon broadcasters.
[b]But[/b] none of that is very going to really appear in a MTB mag as race reports seem to be a thing of the past (apart from Dirt) when I started mountain biking, racing was one of the main things and the athletes were the stars, now the writers are the 'stars'.
British MTB mags are just reporting on new tech stuff, which is mostly good these days and "We have ridden here" which in most cases is pretty boring, to me. Even road mags at least have a bit more variation and thus more to 'report'. But judging by most post of this forum thats what people look for. So don't blame the mtb press for providing it.
I don't think that MTB magazines are totally uninformative, but like all hobby magazines they are made for enthusiasts, rather than the jaded types you get on here (self included).
You don't want to be buzzing with enthusiasm about where you're going to ride or a new bit of kit you're going to buy, and then pick up a amagazine and read in-depth articles about equipment failures, dodgy sellers or naff sanitised trails.
I think the reason why MBR come in for such a panning (apart from the odd daft statement like "hardtails are dead" that people tweezer out and post up here) is that the tone can be very critical and harsh - not what you want to read if you've just bought the bike they're reviewing.
race reports seem to be a thing of the past
MBUK carry quite a few actually, usually pretty readable.
... investigative journalism, as Chips points out there is not a massive amount, of thats sort of thing, that would be of any interest
Well, there's this for a start.
http://www.numplumz.com/cal/1.htm
Look at all the "Should I try 1x9", "Are 29ers any good", "Which are the best forks" threads on this forum.
Wouldn't race reports with pictures or specs of the top riders' bikes be of interest ? Not just the pros and sponsored riders in international races, but the fast amateurs in club events who buy their own stuff.
[i]Look at all the "Should I try 1x9", "Are 29ers any good", "Which are the best forks" threads on this forum.[/i]
Yup, the forum is doing a great job of satisfying that need hey? :o)
I want to read about riding bikes.
We all love riding. Like you the few hours a week I get out and ride is essential for me. It gets me through the week. And the reasons why ? There are so many - fitness, time away from the kids, time with my mates, being amongst nature, the thrill of going quick. But there's something more. Something i can't put my finger on. It's almost elemental and I love it.
I want to read about this - I want to read about riding.. Something about the poetry and pain of riding up and down these muddy hills of ours. I will put up with some of the endless kit reviews and recycling of press releases but there must be something more. Or maybe not.
I have long given up on the magazines. Singletrack, I think, want to achieve what I am looking for, but the writers seem a bit too concerned with the ‘Singletrack' vibe and get blinded by all the kit. I had high hopes for Privateer. Maybe the second edition will deliver.
Oh well. Back to day dreaming about riding.
Dave, the forum's good for personal opinions about whether 29ers are better than 26ers or not.
The magazine's good for press releases from 29er manufacturers.
What about someone who is thinking of buying a 29er and wants to base their decision on evidence though ?
How about the magazines report on how many of the top riders in the Midlands XC series or Bristol Bike Fest were on 29ers ?
Same goes for 1x9, 2x10, 15mm axles and so on. Wouldn't it be nice to know if they really are any better than the alternatives ?
yes to be fair i forgot about MBUK, which is kind of kiddy-ish but at the same time almost the most rounded of all the magazines out there.
I agree that "what the pro's are using" would be interesting and I think there are innovations that are interesting. What I meant is that 'proper' journalism, investigating the deeper issues behind the tech stuff is hardly that interesting. I'm not that keen to read about legal deputes over patents.
I guess I am just stuck in the past (and grumpy)interested in racing and hearing about what goes on, on the international race scene rather than being focused on 'tech' and "what tyre for this". Do wonder if young people getting in to the sport are really inspired to get fit by middle age men compared to when I started wanting looking up to Tim Gould or John Tomac. Feel rather stuck in the past with this attitude rather than the "ramble" scene that seems to hang around here (I mean on here and locally), sometimes feel more in-tune with roadies or runners these days.
God I am grumpy today!
How about the magazines report on how many of the top riders in the Midlands XC series or Bristol Bike Fest were on 29ers ?
Same goes for 1x9, 2x10, 15mm axles and so on. Wouldn't it be nice to know if they really are any better than the alternatives ?
Surely the fittest bloke (with a good dose of bike handling skills) is going to win, regardless of how their bike is set up. And the pro teams are going to use what they're given, or light kit that can be easily damaged.
Also, spare a thought for the poor race officials. I would hate to have to measure everyone's axle diameter and then put them in their own sub-category.
Surely...
See what I mean ?
Wouldn't you like to have some facts based on investigative journalism to back up your speculation ?
What is the point of bike mags?
Is mountain biking really the sort of seething sewer of iniquity, illegality and drug abuse that would justify it being the subject of incessant investigative journalism? What do you want? 'Top Bike Designer in 29er Sex Romp Shocker!' 'British Bike Brand Equipped Sadam's Army With Singlespeeds!' 'Isis Bottom Brackets In Sex And Drugs Orgy Scandal!'
How about the mags launch an in-depth investigation into who the evil genius behind the Isis bottom bracket was and expose the evil conspiracy behind its introduction? We follow the trail of corruption from Utah to the poppy fields of Afghanistan and expose the truth behind chains that don't work and how the Taliban is fleecing British mountain bikers through shadowy puppet corporations. Blah.
I dunno, call me simple and old fashioned, but I'd simply like to read brilliantly written, inspirational stories about riding bikes in amazing places with interesting people accompanied by stunning imagery. If 'proper journalism' is an in-depth investigation of Isis bottom brackets, you can keep it.
Take this report of Mountain Mayhem for example.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/2010/06/glorious-mayhem-stories-and-results-here/
That's a decent enough example of taking a race weekend and turning it into a kit report. I've not got much against it but having been at the event I would have been more interested in things like why did James Leavesley pass out on the course in the early hours and be taken away in an ambulance? As always there is a lot more that goes on at these races than ever gets reported on.
I thought the build up to races like 24hrs of Exposure on some sites was great as there were profiles of the racers before the event and it was a lot more interesting to know who won when you knew who was who beforehand.
These days there isn't a lot reported about XC racing and I couldn't give you more than one or two names of world cup racers. If there was as bit more build up and profiles ahead of the racing though Id be a lot more interested in following it.
Seems as though its a bit uncool to follow XC racing these days though and its the magazines that are as guilty as anyone else for projecting that view.
If 'proper journalism' is an in-depth investigation of Isis bottom brackets, you can keep it.
I used ISIS as an example of how stuff that has been proven not to work gets brushed under the carpet in favour of the 'hey wow isn't this great' gushing over 'the latest big thing'. It seems that all too often it's Joe Public that gets to do the long term product development and has to pay for the privilige. I've worked as an engineer and have seen first hand that many so called advances are really patent avoidance ploys. What I'd like to see the magazines doing more efectively is sorting the good from the bad.
This is a good example of 'real world' testing;
[url= http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/doc-says-carbon-no-quicker-than-steel ]http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/doc-says-carbon-no-quicker-than-steel[/url]
In this case £1000 carbon bike against £50 steel one.
From that article...
Dr Groves feels "evidence based cycling is not high on the bicycle salesman’s agenda."
😀
"I've worked as an engineer and have seen first hand that many so called advances are really patent avoidance ploys"
yeah good point. blame a bullsh++t US patent system for that. if they worked on European patent criteria half the so-called patents would not exist and we would have a proper open-source system of genuine R+D where a good bike is based on whether you know what to do and why, not whether you can afford to license some dubious patent.
See this thread here ?
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stu-mcgroos-lets-put-this-alfine-weight-issue-to-bed-once-and-for-all-thread
This is what journalists should be writing.
Mostly Balanced - Member
...I've worked as an engineer and have seen first hand that many so called advances are really patent avoidance ploys.
Like just about any rear suspension system 🙂
The interesting thing is if you look at patents from the 1880 - 90s before the pneumatic tyre became universal, then you'll see an example of almost any of the patented suspension systems.
I'd like to know what factories in the Far East are making what bikes for who.
Start with Giant. They make a lot of the expensively marketed "superior" bikes from USA.
Which is why it makes sense to buy a Giant - get it from the horse's mouth as it were.
[quote=johnny_met]is MTB journalism proper journalism......If there was an issue with the big manufacturers of retailers would we find out?
I'd say the lack of coverage of the CRC security issue has categorically answered that question.
And yet, not only have we responded to this thread and the others but CRC have also responded and put statements on the forum of every major cycling website on the net complete with telephone numbers and email contacts as well as a statement that they are investigating the problems. In terms of engaging with readers on a website how much more open do you want it to be? CRC are aware of these threads and they are happy for the issues to be discussed openly. Beyond 'reprinting' the accounts of individuals from these threads (which seems sort of pointless since they are here for us to read and more people read the forum than read the stories on the front page) I don't see much point in doing anything more. It wouldn't add anything other than a headline to the issue. There is nothing to report beyond what we all know. In short a story would not add anything to what you already know. When we have something beyond what we have on these threads we will report it. At the moment there is nothing new to add. As people experience issues that they feel are relevant to the issue they are reporting them here and on other forums.
CRC - An investigation into any link between reported fraudulant account activity and customers' bank details is ongoing, according to CRC. Here's what our readers have to say on the issue <link to the forum thread>.
I can put that on the front page if you like but it seems pointless. I'd prefer to wait until there's something to actually report that you don't already know about. And yes, we've spoken to CRC about this. And No they have not applied any pressure on us or any other media as far as we know.
What about the Isis bottom bracket scandal that has blighted our lives for more years than I can remember - I've gone senile waiting. When are you going to run a special Panorama-style Isis investigation? I for one and two or three other people would almost certainly think about buying such a one-off special.
The only proper journos in business today are the ones doing investigative work for newspapers/websites ( like ArsTechnica - they do some fantastic investigations and reporting ).
MTB mags (or any other sports/computer/car mag) is just a PR platform for their respective industry.... which is why I don't buy them. Yes, they might have the odd interesting 'article', or report on an event - but 90% of the pages are filled with marketing (however subtle it might be).
I don't think for one second that CRC is applying pressure to STW either. STW have to be neutral, and only 'officially' report facts, due to the sensitive nature of the crisis. Falsely accusing them could lead to legal trouble, which nobody wants.
Do 100% of Singletrack readers actively read every thread on the STW forum?
Do 100% of MBUK / WMB readers actively read every thread on the Bikeradar forum?
My guess is that they don't, and that many, many times more people are subscribed to the RSS feed for the "news" items on the frontpage.
Is it unreasonable to expect a news item along the lines of "there are unsubstantiated claims of.... CRC have issued the following statement..... you can follow the discussion here....."
While it is positive that CRC are commenting on the threads, I think it's naive to view it as anything other than damage limitation on their part, as if they were really intent on communicating with their customer base, they have the mechanism both through the email details they hold, and through the MTB press.
Think Mark was involved in the NOTW phone tapping scandal....been behaving ever since 😉
Agree CRC could have mailed us all to check our accounts...not shy about bombarding us with mails about offers!...BUT if there proves to be no link then that would have just been a pointless PR disaster for their customers who maybe wouldn't have got to hear about it via sites like STW
My guess is that they don't, and that many, many times more people are subscribed to the RSS feed for the "news" items on the frontpage."
Then you'd be quite wrong in your guess. 85% of ALL our site traffic goes through this forum. The rest is spread across all other pages, including the front page - and that includes all RSS feeds too.
Typically only around 4% of forum users (users = posters & readers) ever post anything. Yes.. 96% of forum activity is from Readers (lurkers) NOT the posters. The CRC thread has been sat consistently on the front page of the forum for well over a week now. It has had a lot more attention than our front page has had. A front page story typically has a shelf life of a few days before it drops off into the archive.
Want pro-bike pictures and specs - see bikeradar
Want race reports - see bikeradar/MBUK