[Closed] Is 650b... dying?

Yes, but you're giving up proper mountain biking, so are not to be trusted.

This is unfortunately very true 😥

What wheel size for feeling ashamed?

What wheel size for feeling ashamed?

For you.
Don't speak for me or my pile of 26" tyres please!

I think the crucial difference that people miss is the entirely different quesions:

1) Is my bike good enough.
2) What is the best bike to buy.

For anyone (not just some bell curve outliers) a 26" bike with 2.0-2.5" tyres is fine. You're very unlikely to ever find a situation where it doesn't work. Equally a 29+ bike would be just the same.

But with a blank sheet of paper to spec a bike on, there aren't many good arguments against 29ers, they're faster, they're easier to ride, they're more comfortable.

If I had a 26" bike, I'd ride it and not be bothered about it. But about 8 years ago I needed a new bike, so it was a 29er. I'd buy another 26" bike if it was a bargain, but if buying something new it would be very unlikely to be not a 29er.

Hang on, what's this about 650B dead? What? are they being replaced by eBikes or summink?
650B isn't dead as it's almost literally the new 26". Rides the same and looks similar and is pretty much standard in yer bike shoppe. I personally think they've taken over purely because the tyres look fatter and cooler. But then Plus came along! Looks even better! I know what I'd get next, if it wasn't a 29er, that is.

LOL, for anyone not taking the pee, it's not that 650b is dead, it's just that it's not going to kill off 29 as some predicted a few years ago. If anything, 29ers are increasingly popular. What I'm concerned about is the future for ebike 29+ DH compatibility :P.

But with a blank sheet of paper to spec a bike on, there aren't many good arguments against 29ers, they're faster, they're easier to ride, they're more comfortable

Is this faster as in evidenced to be faster or "Chris Porter" faster.... eg opinion, conjecture and rampant cognitive bias.... because his shock settings are ****ing awful for me... and Whyte are backing away from the crazy reach lengths due to input from their racers.

People are different, Porter was suprised I could achieve full travel with my sag on a DHX2 with a lot of HSC damping. He suggested running it almost fully open, with little high soeed rebound damping and a more low speed damping. The result was a shock that was lively but ridiculously unpredictable - it gave a platformy feel whereby the shock would suddenly open up and the fast high speed rebound upset the grip at the front.

Yet he can ride that. I sure cant - I prefer a bit more oversprung and deader suspension for chassis stability.

Im almost of the mind that Porter has to run such a long bike because his suspension settings are wildly borked.

they're faster, they're easier to ride, they're more comfortable.

Thats very generic, im sure theres a shit 29er about somewhere.

Usual lines... I can still get decent rims and rubber for 26.
Juat gone 650b boost for my current bike I expect to have no issue with spares for the next 3-5 years so no it's other dead.

The only point I do see things dropping off is the plus stuff it's staying niche until somebody can make decent tyres, there was a pinkbike interview with several leading manufacturers trying to sound enthusiastic about it.

Dying? I hope not. I've a 650b Kona Explosif and I have never gelled with a bike so quickly in my life before or since. I've had it for over four years and must have done 3,000 miles on it on various surfaces. My Zaskar 29er on the other hand... It was bought under the bike to work scheme and after attempting trails with it once it was relegated to pure commuting and dragging kids to school duties. Looks gorgeous. Is cumbersome, slow to steer and generally just horrible to ride. Keep ****ting my front foot off the back of the front tyre as well which means the geometry is completely wrong as far as I'm concerned. It might well be Mr. Zaskar designer was having an off day that day, but it's put me off them for life. Will stick with 650b - and my twelve year old, 3x8, 26"-wheeled Zaskar...

Is this faster as in evidenced to be faster or "Chris Porter" faster.... eg opinion, conjecture and rampant cognitive bias.... because his shock settings are **** awful for me... and Whyte are backing away from the crazy reach lengths due to input from their racers.

Faster as in https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1CAFA_enGB659GB660&q=definition+of+faster&oq=definition+of+faster

Thats very generic, im sure theres a shit 29er about somewhere.

There are plenty, but let's not judge 26" bikes by their worst examples either.

[img] [/img]

You could make paperclip bike with 29" wheels, it would probably be rubbish, just incrementally less rubbish.

This thread makes me realise what fun we've been missing since all the wheelsize controversy died down.

Got statistically significant data thisisnotaspoon?

[s]Go big[/s] Prove it or go home.

If you cant prove it, its conjecture. The motorcycle world went through these fad driven changes eg leading link forks to telescopic forks and back to leading link forks again (if the rumour mill is to be believed).

Pffft, wheel size is so 2015. That said, if I can still get rims and tyres for my 24" BMX, albeit not a massive range, we'll be alright for a while yet.

I find boost is the thing making all the bits on my 2015 bikes, both 27.5 and 29, obsolete.

That and metric shocks - which were done in part to improve leverage ratios as well as reliability (did anyone have serious issues with reliability outside of Sram users?) - and then people like Trek specced 230mm long shocks with 57mm strokes on 160mm bikes......lol

Got statistically significant data thisisnotaspoon?

Go big Prove it or go home.

Why so defensive of 26" (or 650b? Which is it?). Why not prove that your choice is quicker?

Plenty of un-scientific articles out there showing 29ers quicker, plenty of racers finding them quicker. The data might not be statistically significant (to what level, if you're going to throw around statements like that you need to attach a number to it), but there does appear a lack of articles prompting the null hypothesis (yay A-level statistics!).

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, you're arguing with the wrong person, I'm quite happy on any wheel size'd bike in my shed. I'd just not be spending three figures on a new bike that I was convinced was inferior* to another bike of the same price, that way madness lies.

*a subtle but important distinction to 'fastest', my last purchase was a fat bike.

did anyone have serious issues with reliability outside of Sram users?

I got through 3 Float's in just over a year (well 2x, the new owner stripped it and found it about to die so you could attribute that either way). Went back to hardtails. Again an example of a better choice, but not necessarily faster. My argument is that 29ers are faster, not universally better.

As long as I can still get decent rims and tyres I'll probably be riding 26" wheeled bikes for the rest of my riding life.
Apart from my Hummingbird, which is a 69er.....
Forks aren't a problem as a) I have a few Marzocchi 55 RC3 Ti's to keep me going and b) I could just use 650b forks anyway.

E bike...... don't matter what the wheel size is

And they will only get less heavy

Plenty of un-scientific articles out there showing 29ers quicker

There's some showing 27.5 as being faster as well.

I don't need to prove my choice is quicker, because I don't proclaim that it is.

qwerty - Member

Its smaller wheels for me, maybe a big one at the front though. I have ickle legs & on my local steep techy trails if i ran a 29er rear i'd have no scrotum left

Katy Winton is 5 foot 3 and rides a Trek Slash 29er. Tracy Moseley is 5 foot 4 and won more EWS titles than anyone else, on a 29er.

Please let 650b die. I'd love a few bargains.
My Jekyll is ossum.
As is my rigid SS 29.
And my 26. Admittedly a Fatty....

Katy Winton is 5 foot 3 and rides a Trek Slash 29er. Tracy Moseley is 5 foot 4 and won more EWS titles than anyone else, on a 29er.

Yes, but neither have scrotums. I think.

What is dead in my estimation is classifying bikes pertaining to wheel size - way too many variables both objective and subjective - Sometimes we merely want to try something different or our riding habits change - Personally I'm wanting to go 27.5 having been on 29er for the last 5 years - this is mainly because my riding is mainly local sub 30 mile rides where I'm mixing things up a bit and heading out to more dirt jumps and off piste fun - I just can't jump 29ers and I struggle with manuals - I need a bit more chuckability - The wheel debate though is mainly a construct of bike journalism. .

i'd have no [b]scrotum[/b] left

[b]Katy Winton[/b] is 5 foot 3 and rides a Trek Slash 29er. [b]Tracy Moseley[/b] is 5 foot 4 and won more EWS titles than anyone else, on a 29er.

We've gone from A-level statistics to KS3 Biology.

Tracy Moseley is 5 foot 4 and won more EWS titles than anyone else, on a 29er.

Then again, Mosley thinks a bike slacker than 65 is "too slack" where as 63 on a Mega 275 to me feels amazeballs and now my Reign feels like a nervous over the bars POS.

Each to their own - what is faster is what works for you personally.

Mainly because the supposed "three seconds a run" or whatever it was turned out to be largely nonsense. There hasn't been evidence of a clear benefit to 29 in either DH or Enduro - seems to be more about personal preference now, peopel riding what they like, some are chopping and changing.

Is 29 dying?

^

Lol @ Brendans "29 years" comment. I bet that wiped the shit eating grin off Steve "ZOMG go out and buy a 29er guyz" Jones face. 😀

Purely observation but I was at BPW today, it was rammed, at least 4 buses running (maybe more?) and not a 29er in sight....not any that I noticed anyway.

Everything seemed to be 650b or old school 26....didn't stop the hard sell in the shop though with Trek Slash and Nukeproof Mega 29ers displayed front and centre and available for demos...thing is the talk in the buses seemed to be that the asking price of £2,700 for the aluminium Nukeproof to £4,000 for the carbon Slash was a piss take...that's the real problem right there.

I've got nothing against 29ers, wouldn't mind one once the DH bike is sold but I'll be going budget conscious through a company like On-One and getting the 29er Codeine.

Tbh, price isn't a 29er specific issue...

Lol at Brendan big holding back, wee Danny a bit more diplomatic... 😆

Most of the 29 DH bikes are tweaked 27.5 bikes (V10 included) rather than being developed around the wheel size. Also as both Danny and Brendog (who was 26" and flats for life not long ago) admit they spent very little time on the bike and so didn't get the best out of it. Danny quite clearly believes they're faster though, and I'll be surprised if he's not on a 29" bike next season.

Also imagine that the fact that most of the brands don't have 29" product to sell yet may be an important factor.

Next season will be much clearer.

Cleatly, lol? I got the impression that hes open to them but the team decided that there wasnt a statistically significant increase in speed. For now.

Some of the bikes were, that ones that didnt need much of a change to fit the wheels with sensible geometry... eg commencal... but the Trek wasnt.

If it was barrly any faster for Danny and if Sam Hill is still faster on a 27.5.....youre not going to be appreciably quicker on a 29er unless it for psychological reasons.

I'm more interested in 650+ bikes which don't appear to be taking off?

B+ Achilles heel is robust tyres at a decent weight, unless they sort that out somehow, it'll remain a niche.

Tom - he said it was faster several times. As he hadn't spent enough time on it he didn't know the limits on it, and so it wasn't as big a time advantage for him to risk the season.

It's well known on the circuit that he prefers the big wheels. He's just had to make a grown up decision for this season.

Trek is the exception in that it's built for purpose and available to buy. Shame Gee hasn't been fit enough to push it.

Didn't know Sam H had tried it - interesting.

Trek is the exception in that it's built for purpose and available to buy. Shame Gee hasn't been fit enough to push it.

On a bit of a tangent here sorry...

I decided to totally skip 650b, oh sorry, 27.5. Lol

When I wanted a new bike (second hand really) I just didn't want to go from the 26er to a 650b, I just don't think I would have noticed any difference apart from a newer bikes better components or geometry. A slightly bigger wheel? Bleh...

After a brief try on a 29er hard tail I was sold. It just felt right and I was sure the wheel size was part of that.

Anyway,I now have a 29er and won't be going to another wheel size in the future to be honest.

If I were an omnipotent God the only thing I would change is 650b even happening. It was just pointless.

In an ideal world it would be 26" or 29er in Plus flavours if wanted... just miss out the middle man.Lol

He repeatedly said "The time wasn't enough" - so if it was 100ths of second quicker here or there during testing - it's not significant - so why take the risk of moving to the 29er - that is what I understood. He never said it was "clearly faster" did he?

That ties in with exactly what the others were saying in that video and the rumours out of the paddocks.

It was just pointless.

You know, unless riders turn out to be quicker on them than on either 26 or 29.

You're conflating your riding experiences with evidence that it's good for everyone else.

Didn't know Sam H had tried it - interesting.

Well, there's a reason he's not been rocking the Mega 290 in the EWS.

He repeatedly said "The time wasn't enough" - so if it was 100ths of second quicker here or there during testing - it's not significant - so why take the risk of moving to the 29er - that is what I understood. He never said it was "clearly faster" did he?

The guy's been riding 26" all his life, learned his trade on it and gives a 29er a 'go' for a few runs and decides not to run it. No surprise there really. Going fast down a test track is one thing, pulling it out of the bag in competition with all the nerves and pressure, with their reputations on the line is something completely different and they're obviously going to choose something they feel more familiar with.

If 29ers do crack DH it won't be this generation of riders who do it - not while they are given the choice or without a nudge from a rule change or changes to the tracks that favour 29ers, it'll be the next generation who have had more time on 29ers and can make the transition easier. If 29ers are able to go faster then the riders need to learn how to ride them and it's going to take more than a few timed out of season practice runs to do that even for these talented riders.

But 29ers may never crack DH. Maybe 650b is the sweet spot for DH. Is it really that difficult to imaging a world with.........2 wheel sizes?

The guy's been riding 26" all his life, learned his trade on it and gives a 29er a 'go' for a few runs and decides not to run it. No surprise there really. Going fast down a test track is one thing, pulling it out of the bag in competition with all the nerves and pressure, with their reputations on the line is something completely different and they're obviously going to choose something they feel more familiar with.

Yeah....but I thought everyone got KOM's on Strava as soon as they put a leg over a 29er. I mean, Steve Jones said so.

If 29ers do crack DH it won't be this generation of riders who do it - not while they are given the choice or without a nudge from a rule change or changes to the tracks that favour 29ers, it'll be the next generation who have had more time on 29ers and can make the transition easier.

They made the transition to 27.5 fine, why would another 1.5 inches be so much harder? Could it be, maybe...just maybe....because 29ers are shit?

You're really not keen on 29ers then Tom? 😀

If Giant capitulate then yes....until then I expect people to ride the bikes that fit them best. Never understood the wheel aggro/angst

Tom_W1987 - Member

Yeah....but I thought everyone got KOM's on Strava as soon as they put a leg over a 29er. I mean, Steve Jones said so.

And not only that, but it was the only time in his entire career that Jones ever clearly expressed an opinion. And he did it in video too, not upside down in invisible ink on a flourescent background, with half the sentence cut off at the bottom of the page

I'll be surprised if we don't see a lot more 29ers in downhill but I'll also be surprised if we don't continue to see 27.5 in enduro.

The thing many forget is that enduro racers have minimal practice and are often having to thread tight lines and make quick changes and adjustments because they're riding almost blind on very long tracks. On more open rocky courses the 29 seem more popular but once it's tighter woods trails the pumping and flicking on the 27.5 is easier.

Longer front-centres are certainly helping stop riders having to get so far back when mincing down steeps, which should help a lot with the 29er scrotum clearance issue.

Blimey TomW, you're a bit grumpy over this - did Steve Jones bum your dog?

FWIW what I heard in that from Danny Hart is that he went back to what he knew better, even though his implication is that in testing the 29er was marginally faster despite him having less time on it and not fully knowing its limits (ask any of the top 10 if they'd ride a bike that gave them a tenth of a second advantage and see what they say) - reason? Well, pretty much just to make a change (altered race weather and snapped chain were 2 of his 3 comments)

The other two, fair enough - they clearly didn't like it though both had done hardly any time on them and BF in particular was implying that he hadn't found its limits yet "felt like I was on the edge ... obviously wasn't")

(and let's be fair, 650b isn't half way in-between the two really - fair bit closer to 26 in size and feel I imagine)

I don't care what they ride - I'll never own a DH frame so the wheels they may choose to use is an irrelevance to me. As said above somewhere, I tried a "top" 29er trailbike recently (coming from 26) and was NOT blown away by it but I'll keep an open mind since I only rode it for a day

The thing many forget is that enduro racers have minimal practice and are often having to thread tight lines and make quick changes and adjustments because they're riding almost blind on very long tracks. On more open rocky courses the 29 seem more popular but once it's tighter woods trails the pumping and flicking on the 27.5 is easier.

And yet some are hammering they way down on 29 with no issues.

Wheel size arguments are truly a straw clutching exercise at making anything support your point of view.
Give sc have been running the 29 v10 for longer than any one else it's not a surprise they are doing well.
Id also best tell Jack moir he probably wants to get the old bike out for garbanzo this week

I've been on 29 for ages, since they were confused barges and I also own a 650.

I've got a bit bored now of the 29er and exploring the b+ options. Which is in a way a 29er.

Maybe 650b+ is the true future as it's both at the same time. 🙂