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I remember looking at the business case for Aim-Up (and shamelessly stealing some points to get funding from Event Scotland) and the Tweed Valley is within 90 mins drive of 3 big centres, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle - around 3 million people. It just makes sense as a location in terms of potential audience.
Hels and that's why it's on a winner. Kirroughtree could be the best place in the world but population and transport infrastructure are always against it.
Indeed - we even have the Borders Buses number 62 bike bus now, aimed at people coming to Glentress from Edinburgh or Galashiels/Melrose without a car. They recently announced the service has been a success and is expanding.
Kirroughtree is amazing but it seems to be at least 2 hours from everywhere.
All the Western Stanes have this disadvantage although not as bad as Kirroughtree.
Ae at least avoids having to drive through Dumfries to get to it, but its not the most inspriring place. So it does make sense to spend the money in the Tweed Valley.
Just don't tell anyone about Comrie!
Ae at least avoids having to drive through Dumfries to get to it, but its not the most inspriring place
Last time I went to Kirro, went up Cairnsmore of fleet first, then went for a lap of the red. That was the plan anyway, I never got much further than the top of the first climb, the lunar like landscape left behind post forestry work robbed the place of it's atmosphere, for me anyway.
Ae is a far better place for me now, good cafe with good folks running it, and an abundance of bloody good trails all over the hill now, and cracking views from the top. Strangely, I think the deforestation will work to improve Ae, makes it much easier for the guys down there to pick lines for cutting, which they have already.
I total get why they are focusing all the money on one location rather than spreading it thinly over several sites in Scotland. The tweed valley probably has the most extensive and diverse range of riding, granted there are individual places in Scotland that equal or exceed specific trail areas in the tweed valley, but collectively it has to be the top destination, particularly when you factor in accessibility.
My only concern, and maybe a local will put me right. Is that with such large amounts of money been accessed, and with such a large proportion going on the centre and not the trail structure and facilities for riders, that those in charge are local individuals that have for a number of years worked hard to promote and drive mountain biking in the valley. Not individuals chasing the money who know how to access grant funding, pay themselves 100k+ salaries for several years to oversea the project and don’t deliver something any where near what was originally anticipated for riders who would in turn pay back into the local economy, though stays, eating etc. Probs just means being cautious and if they fall into the former I wish them every success.
I just don't get the obsession with the chairlift/rollercoaster, the BPW model seems to work incredibly well. Why aren't they looking to let adrenaline (or another company) expand to run a service all week still covering Innerleithen trails and adding in up to the high road point of the Golfie. Very aware it still leaves a push up to the top trails which I've not got an answer for but the van uplift model seems so much easier than building a dedicated mechanism to get to the top.
Even if they ran at Inners only Monday to Thursday and then up the Golfie as well at the weekend and split out the busses across the sites. Would be a lot easier to split out the trails into different gradings too as the Golfie will be very difficult to cater for easy/blue type trails with the way it loses gradient.
I'd also be incredibly worried about the popularity of e-bikes if spending millions on a fixed uplift, sure there will still be some wanting an uplift but there will be plenty justifying the outlay against not having to pay for uplifts...
As above though, I genuinely do hope it is successful and will be a customer whichever way it turns out!
I remember looking at the business case for Aim-Up (and shamelessly stealing some points to get funding from Event Scotland) and the Tweed Valley is within 90 mins drive of 3 big centres, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle – around 3 million people. It just makes sense as a location in terms of potential audience.
But then the argument 10 years ago was the Tweed Valley needed the investments to get it's tourist industry of the ground. Not turn it into a commuter town for outdoorsy people.
If the argument was to spend the money within 90 minutes drive of x million people we'd be talking about public funding for Aston Hill or a chairlift at Peaslake.
If the argument was to spend the money within 90 minutes drive of x million people we’d be talking about public funding for Aston Hill or a chairlift at Peaslake.
Do you think the Scottish Govt would stump up for those?
The Tweed Valley is the Scottish version of the Surrey Hills anyway.
So what does a centre of excellence do exactly? It just a trumped up cafe? 😆
I’d also be incredibly worried about the popularity of e-bikes if spending millions on a fixed uplift, sure there will still be some wanting an uplift but there will be plenty justifying the outlay against not having to pay for uplifts…
Think you are totally correct. Been thinking this for a while. Would imagine e-DH geometry bikes are going to be pretty standard in the next few years. Outrageous geometry that can still be peddled up hill. Been bumping into packs of e-bikers in the Alps cycling uphill for last couple of years, even with the lifts running.
just don’t get the obsession with the chairlift/rollercoaster
Aye, adrenalin works well too, but to me vans and trailers will always seem like a bodged sticking plaster type solution, an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
The idea of going to the Nevis range always excites me more than a day on an uplift bus tbh.
an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
+1
I find van uplift a bit annoying and stop-starty.
Turnaround time would surely be quicker on a chairlift too.
Aye, adrenalin works well too, but to me vans and trailers will always seem like a bodged sticking plaster type solution, an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
The idea of going to the Nevis range always excites me more than a day on an uplift bus tbh
Absolutely agree with that (and the quicker turnaround point). Just can't see how the business case could actually stack up against an improved van service. Was it not about £13m previously estimated to stick in a fixed uplift? Not sure if they're planning something enclosed - it could be pretty grim heading up the hill soaked through in an open uplift!
I would absolutely love a chairlift, or even better a network across the valley, but I just can't see how it makes financial sense just for bikers.
Genuinely do hope I'm wrong though and it helps to develop the Tweed Valley into even more of a biking resort - and hopefully not at the expense of other parts of the valley.
Also, I recall the first winter Gordo was running the uplifts, there was a hell of a lot of days the vans couldn't get up the hill due to the ice.
Business case would stack up with other visitors, zipwires, toboganning, bird watching, hill access for hill walking etc. Before you even talk about increase in numbers to the area, jobs etc.
I dislike the vans. It causes congestion at both ends with a large group launching at pretty much the same time. And I've been beeped and closely passed at by a couple of vans a couple of times certainly got my adrenaline up.
Might be wrong here, but wasn't there some talk about some of the money being used to convert part of the old Innerleithen mill building into an innovation centre (for Borders College or something?). Maybe the mixed development idea at the mill has gone out of the window in preference for housing?
As far as the uplift goes, I was initially very sceptical about a fixed uplift, but having used van-based uplifts, I can appreciate what people have already said regarding turnaround times. I hadn't thought about the potential for other user groups too. I guess if it's run on electricity from renewable sources it's got to be more enviro-friendly than a fleet of diesel minibuses.
To be fair to adrenaline, they are very slick and well run, I've never had to wait much, always a decent turnaround.
I'd just prefer the flexibility of a ski lift type affair.
So what does a centre of excellence do exactly? It just a trumped up cafe?
gives a location for several startup companies to operate and get government funding before they go into receivership
I dislike the vans. It causes congestion at both ends with a large group launching at pretty much the same time. And I’ve been beeped and closely passed at by a couple of vans a couple of times certainly got my adrenaline up.
yeah I've had one very close fast pass with one seemingly out of control on the way down as well as the usual anooyance
Did anyone raise a concern with Adrenaline on the incidents?. I'm pretty sure Gordo wouldn't be too enamoured if his drivers were behaving like that.
It shouldn't happen, but tbh it's not that surprising, there's more traffic on that road than ever before (outside of races, but there's less bikes on the road during races). This is one thing that BPW really does well, they've done a lot to separate bikes and vans.
There's a few ways to tackle it well but none of them are free. Me, I think it'd tie in well with a general "improve the uplift road"
If nothing else it'd be a good idea to put signs up at conflict points, for both bikes and drivers. I think a lot of people just don't expect to see vehicles at all
Brilliant news I think for the whole area , I wonder how long till Inners gets a travel lodge. Joking aside Im shocked this went ahead in the current climate but over time it could bring soem major income into the valley and Scotland. Will be interesting to see where the chair lift will drop you off as Apparently its to be situated near the bottom of Flat White with a new clubhouse for the golf course. Also makes you think will old skool punters who want to jusr slug their way up the climbs have to pay.
The trails already in place are excellent and a couple have popped up recently just making the place better and better. If its to get a chairlift I'd imagine it will need a couple of blue type flow trails as historically the easiest trail flat white trail is in bits and can be a handful at speed whith the shale and loose boulders.
Bring It on...
I keep saying over and over again that all uplift trail centres need multiple options at all levels to allow trails to be closed for maintenance. Whistler has this. Nowhere in Scotland does, but there is nowhere remotely on the scale of Whistler. Arguably our trails will suffer more as they will be all weather and all year use. If there are 5 or 6 blue trails and one is closed, a "blue" rider can still go and have a great day, and if there is an option to mainly blue with a wee bit of red, all the better as as the rider progresses, they have plenty of options.
Any sustainable and financially viable centre needs to offer variety and progression if it is to attract return visits from a wide range rider abilities and remain accessible for those new to the sport to allow them to progress. There needs to be trails to accommodate all riders from families with kids all the way to riders nailing Double Blacks on sight.
It would also be a good idea if there could be diversification built into the uplift plan to generate income from non bike related activities.
I really hope that this is successful.
What is glossed over in the press release, is the entire project is dependant on gaining 'significant' private funding. A key principle of the Borderland funding is projects have to be commercially viable, and include private investment. It's not simply grant funding awarded on the basis it might bring some money into the area (aka the initial 7 Stanes funding), it's got to be backed up by a valid business case.
As for those thinking the existing trails will remain as they are, they won't. If you add in a chairlift, the existing trails will be destroyed within months (some probably within weeks!), as natural trails quite simply cannot handle the traffic.
There is a reason trails like at Glentress are built using hardcore, and Whistler even paves some of their trails, and they don't even suffer from the same level of wet weather riding as the Tweed Valley does.
I would comment on the whole MTBCoE/DMBinS setup, but I'll refrain and just say, quango. However @BigJim 's post did make me laugh 🙂
And for the record, I know this post sounds negative, but I would really like to see a mechanical uplift in the Tweed Valley. I'm just not under any illusion that it won't involve a major change to the trails on whatever hill one gets built.
I’m just not under any illusion that it won’t involve a major change to the trails on whatever hill one gets built.
This 100%. It would be best to start with a totally blank canvas. It needs planned from the micro level up. Hazard mitigation. Safe intersections. Vehicle access. Casualty extraction. You can't just plonk a chairlift on a hill.
19million to spend on getting it going...how much to maintain it on-going...
It all sounds great, just feels like the wrong place as the only place it will help is Tweed Valley. Plenty other places that could do with this kind of development and help.
^ To be fair MC If anyone would be in the know I'd guess you would have a better info than most. Im guessing the significant investment comes from the likes of big bike brands (like Trek with nevis). You would think maybe the Hub could have companies like Endura etc having units.
Does BPW have major sponsorship as I've never been .
As Troutwrestler said some non biking activities could be added , Apart this freak winter you couldn't Ski or Snowboard there. Maybe Zipwires or go Ape type stuff. Always amazes me how the Scottish Ski resorts have been so half arsed about biking. Nevis has finally added a blue , Glencoe has a harder Black than fort bill but a weaker red than Top chief. Cairngorm nothing , Glenshee nothing , Lecht trialled a half arsed trail years ago.
TBH if the economic benefits quoted are even remotely realistic then spending £19m is a no brainer (who knows if they really are, these things generally seem to be just pulled out of an arse) but as MC says the model is that it's not enough just for a project to make a huge amount for the area, it also has to be individually viable without ongoing funding. Which is entirely stupid, but there you go.
The significant funding is well beyond anything a bike company is likely to invest.
To give an idea of initial investment, IIRC the estimated cost of a chairlift at Traquair was over £10million, and that price tag certainly won't have gone down, and that was over 15 years ago.
(For those around long enough the chairlift figures pre-dated AIMUp, and were part of a FCS feasibility study. AIMUp did consider a chairlift, but it wasn't purely for financial reasons they never pursued it).
Private investors will be the true test of the business case used to secure the borderland funding.
I did have a good chat with somebody who looked at the figures mentioned when the idea was first raised, and they were very sceptical that they could ever be reached. From what I remember, they were based on an average of over 500 riders per day, every day.
You could potentially get a couple thousand per day at weekends during summer, and possibly hit the 500 target during school holidays, but in the depths of winter?
The problem is, it's not that big a hill, so there is limited scope for long trails to spread riders out. If you do get a couple thousand riders, you're going to have some big lift queues (not really that big an issue in good weather as long as you make sure every seat is filled), but trail maintenance is going to need a lot of ongoing money.
IIRC BPW has 6 or 7 full time trail guys. They do have far more trails, but they also have far less riders than what a chairlift would bring, which gives you an idea of the kind of costs involved.
Bear in mind if you can cut and lay 35 miles of new railway from Edinburgh to Tweedbank which includes buying back land and nigh on 10 years of work at 350 million I cant see how stringing up a cable car or gondola over 1300 ft can cost 10 million , this seems mind blowing.
What did the Nevis range cost any idea.? It goes 3 times higher.
I thought the 19 million was all earmarked for buildings and building trails
As for a chairlift. Unless its government money its not going to happen. costs are too high and visitor numbers too low
You could be right Teej, hopefully not . Didn't the peel cost something ridiculous like 8 million for a shit cafe and overpriced bike shop , decent bogs and shower and a sinister building up the top that no one know what the F@c* Is for. They also must have spent a fortune two years later sorting the drains which stunk of shite for ages.
Re chairlifts I just don't think it makes any sense, just build a better road, one that doesn't go most of the way to walkerburn before it's gone up 10 feet. We could really push the boat out and make it go to the top of the hill, that'd put it in a real minority, UK uplifts that start at the bottom and end at the top.
@Northwind , you could be right decent road till the shit climb to the reservoir and beyond. Failing that carry on past the bottom of NYNY and the deid Lone wolf then switch backs and new trails from the top . If anyone has ridden either careless whisper or jailbreak at Gt recently they will have seen how the forestry can carve a fire road in a matter of weeks. Certainly wouldnt cost much money. Im knocking 50 so Id personally just buy an Ebike but most of my mates and son would pay a whistler style pass to ride laps of the golfie.
Other thing is I really don't know why people talk about uplift at the golfy, it just doesn't make much sense to me. It has a great network of basically unsuitable trails (I love 'em but they barely cope with the traffic they get now) and not much else except the road. So building a bikepark style facility there would inevitably screw up what already exists and the only real benefit it'd get is the name association.
It's out of the tweed floodplane at least but there's got to be more suitable hills?
If they couldn't get the money over 10 years ago I can't see how they're going to get it now.
I'd be surprised if there is a chairlift built. If there is any uplift, I'd expect it to be vehicle based. That said a chairlift doesn't need to be expensive. Both Glencoe and Glenshee have put in new (second hand) chailifts reccently for presumably well under 1m! They do have the skills and experience to install it themselves and utilities on site already. If you want a fancy new detachable brand new chairlift then yes its probably 5m+. A lot of the cash will go on the building in Innerleithen I imagine. Wouldn't surprise me if it turns into a non uplift 'bike-park'.
I think it'll be a positive thing though. Everyone likes to moan about change. They moaned when the hub went and they moaned when the uplift changed to adrenalin and let's be honest things have in the end improved on both of those fronts. More facilities can only help keep the Tweed Valley at the front of UK biking which in itself will lead to more trails and facilities in future.
Where though? The location will (has?) reach saturation point and then where will everyone go?
Better to share this around and get multiple areas as centres of excellence and cater for more people than trying to drive everyone to a single place...
As a Borderer I am all for investment. Maybe spend the 19 mil on trail maintenance.
I don't get the idea of an uplift at the golfie, it doesn't really suit the "atmosphere" of the place and I think it would spoil what is already a great riding location with great trails. All golfie needs is a new climb up to the reservoir but I think thats already in progress for the Ews I believe?
If it was up to me, the chairlift would be built over at the traqiar dh side. But I would be putting the chairlift all the way to the summit of minch moor.
If built properly, you could make some new trails with seriously long descents (minch moor descent on current red xc route as a good example) and also allow for the construction of a flagship Dh race track that is fast and flowy at the top, then steep and techy where it joins onto the current dh stuff.
If done properly it would probably be up to the job of hosting a wc dh race and would bring in more tourism than is already there.
Obviously never going to happen. And I don't think ft bill would be too happy about it. But one can only dream...
Not too sure it would work at the Golfie. Where would you park? On the 9th green? It should go over the Traquair side, much more scope for new trails as mentioned above.
The plan, as told at the meeting in Innerleithen a couple of years ago, was that the golf course clubhouse would be flattened and the area would be used as a car park. The clubhouse would then move to the bottom chairlift station and share facilities with hikers and bikers. This would allow for a better cafe and better facilities compared to what the golf club currently has. The top station would be near the NYNY, Lone wolf, Waterworld junction.
There would also be 4-5 bike park style trails built. these would be on both sides of the hill. IIRC the current trails would be somewhat affected by this.
What ever happens it will take awhile.
Its taken ages to get this far.
The Forestry got £11 million for works at Glentress how long ago was that?
No sign of anything happening.
Seems to be have been forgotten.
So potentially £30 million of spending for Mtb in the area still....
Some good points reading the posts above.
I think a vehicle style Uplift is probably a logical option.
Spend the money on the trails, the vehicle Uplift is flexible and can expand to other trails and forests down the Valley.
Yes more blue and more red trails to increase and maintain the existing trails to handle the traffic must be a high priority.
Its a great step forward, let's hope the cash is spent more wisely than at Glentress. The Hub was the best and in such a great location too.
So many happy memories at that place.
No real memories of the current cafe set up. Just so sad, it could be so much better.
Thinking about this It's a strange one , I ride the Golfie way more than the Traquair DH side. Thats not to say I dont like the other side , IXS and the Deer Hunter are immense. Its just that after doing a few uplifts the Inners climb seems a total ball ache because once you have been up it in 15 minutes in a rattly van you never want to do it again. At the Golfie you just get used to (for me) going to the top twice then trying to pack in as much as you can on the lower section.
What I have noticed is that every trail south of flat white that gets ridden a lot cant handle the traffic. Right Side clyde and the new trail Hangover are a mud bath whilst Ray ling and 2nd base are in pretty good shape. If it does end up a Van uplift the trails pop over the fire roads quite a bit so id imagine thats another obstacle.
With regards to the DH side the last uplift I did back in august the lower trails were all blown out and in some state , It was a case of doing Cresta every run as it was the easiest. Is Adrenaline not obliged to do trail repairs .? Cant be that hard to either do it on non uplift days or offer some sort of incentive to others in return for uplift days.