MegaSack DRAW - 6pm Christmas Eve - LIVE on our YouTube Channel
https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/collections/eagle-transmission
The widely predicted step from the UDH - is now that the frames exist, the new SRAM mechs attach directly to the frame.
More minimalist shifter too, moving away from just replicating a cable shifter.
I like the look of the new shifter, hopefully it’ll be backwards compatible with current Eagle AXS kit.
That looks very good, but €700 for the derailleur and €240 for the shifter is just too much.
That looks very good, but €700 for the derailleur and €240 for the shifter is just too much.
Do you actually buy anything at RRP? I certainly don't.
They need to price them like that in preparation for end of season 40% sales and Black Friday etc.
X0 Eagle Transmission is for put-up or shut-up riders who don’t have time to wonder about their componentry. The level of full legitimacy, X0 Eagle Transmission gives confidence to the most serious riders in every discipline. Light, tough, reliable and precise, X0 Eagle Transmission is built to help you prove your mettle.
Oh do **** off Sram.
but €700 for the derailleur and €240
WHAT !!!! Come on... seriously.
That looks very good, but €700 for the derailleur and €240 for the shifter is just too much.
Great that it's this expensive. The more expensive external gears are the more people will buy gearboxes and the more the price of the latter will fall
€700 for the derailleur and €240
And how much for the UDH compatible frame? This looks like more of an OEM launch for now - anyone with a UDH frame will have got it fairly recently so there won't be that many compulsive upgraders looking to change just yet.
If we're going to have a special frame for our derailleur could we not just go the whole way and go to something like the Williams Racing Products system?
To be fair it looks pretty awesome
I love the look of the cranks, always hated sram though.
Welcome to the dream made real.
Enabling Nirvana.
X0 Eagle Transmission is for put-up or shut-up riders who don’t have time to wonder about their componentry. The level of full legitimacy, X0 Eagle Transmission gives confidence to the most serious riders in every discipline.
The zenith. The lightest. The level with no level beyond.
I love the concept, hangers are a pain and I have a UDH frame. Will be waiting for the NX (maybe GX at a push) trickle down to happen first though.
I like the look of the new shifter, hopefully it’ll be backwards compatible with current Eagle AXS kit.
It is. It's the only part that is cross compatible.
Possible (read probable) silly question but ........
I thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
I'm clearly missing something.
Just no. If spending that much, go Rohloff / Pinion to actually solve the vulnerabilities of mech hangers and exposed gears.
Not sure what fantasies the SRAM team are living out, but I think if I spent upwards of £2k on some bike bits I'd probably be single, so it certainly wouldn't be those* ones.
*well, maybe.
Possible (read probable) silly question but ……..
I thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
I’m clearly missing something.
Sram mechs have always been made of cheese. The mech hanger never did it's job for SRAM. I've got a box of them ranging from imperceptibly bent but no longer shift properly, through to utterly mangled. I've got a similar box of shimano mechs that outlived their drivechains still working like new. Should probably bin both now that jockey wheels are no longer universal.
I was going to say ‘meh’ but then I saw the lower jockey wheel on the xx versions. A remarkably clever bit of engineering/Witchcraft!!!
Not sure I’d spend 2 grand on a group set however.
I used to look at older riders at take the piss at them riding around on their old Muddy Fox's or Mercians. Did they not know [b]new shiny things[/b] were available.
I get it now!
It's just an arms race and somewhere along the trails you mentally switch off and decide you are happy with the kit you have!* 🙂
(*QR, 26", 9sp, triple chainset for me!)
letmetalktomark
I thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
I’m clearly missing something.
Yes, you lose the sacrificial mech hnager, but supposedly the stiffer, stronger setup it deals better with crashes and the mech can move out of the way (towards frame) and pivot back if impacted. It's all kind of a response to how sensitive 12s in general (not just SRAM) to bent hangers, the larger cassette and longer cage amplifies a small bend. And you can buy all the replacement parts for the mech - no prizes there though, that should be the case for all derailleurs.
I think it looks good, improves lots of stuff, just a pity the cassette/chain can't be used with the older eagle (I bet it can, and I 'll probably be doing it whenever someone else tries it first)
I was going to say ‘meh’ but then I saw the lower jockey wheel on the xx versions. A remarkably clever bit of engineering/Witchcraft!!!
Is it? I mean they're solving a problem they've created, if you don't want sticks to jam your jockey wheel, just make them solid. To poke it full of holes and then have to add an extra feature to get around stuff wedging in said holes feels a bit over complicated...
Great that it’s this expensive. The more expensive external gears are the more people will buy gearboxes and the more the price of the latter will fall
Now there's a fantasy...
I reckon this new shifter makes the EXPL reverb a much more likely thing to appear on my Shimano equipped gravel bike 🙂
Assuming it can control that (I think they are all cross compatible?)
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/24417603
I thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
seems strong
Great that it’s this expensive. The more expensive external gears are the more people will buy gearboxes and the more the price of the latter will fall
Cost is just one reason stopping most people from buying gearbox bikes, and probably not the main reason either.
It’s just an arms race and somewhere along the trails you mentally switch off and decide you are happy with the kit you have!* 🙂
I think the 'problem' is that there are some developments that do deserve to be adopted, and some things do trickle down. E.g. my 'new' bike kicks my last ones behind despite being 'entry level' deore/marzocchi.
But now SRAM have just done a rug-pull on shimano as XD allows them to make the cassette any length they like, so they can make it wider now they control the dropout's geometry and location as well. Whereas Shimano's only option if they want to compete is to make a micro spline 2.0 with a longer freehub unless they machine the bottom few sprockets as a cluster and allow the 10t to overhang. So now what? Another couple of groupset generations where nothing is intercompatible.
I think it looks good, improves lots of stuff, just a pity the cassette/chain can’t be used with the older eagle (I bet it can, and I ‘ll probably be doing it whenever someone else tries it first)
Apparently not, the cassette spacing is wider.
Which is pointless, it's electric, just make it an option in the app you now need to configure it.
Punchy pricing, and of course in comes the absolute torrent of YouTubers redefining what the word 'gush' means.
But now SRAM have just done a rug-pull on shimano as XD allows them to make the cassette any length they like, so they can make it wider now they control the dropout’s geometry and location as well. Whereas Shimano’s only option if they want to compete is to make a micro spline 2.0 with a longer freehub unless they machine the bottom few sprockets as a cluster and allow the 10t to overhang. So now what? Another couple of groupset generations where nothing is intercompatible.
One of the biggest changes is that instead of the derailleur being 'somewhere about there, ish' in relation to the cassette, and therefore requiring b tension and limit screws, the new mech is mounted directly through the axle, in a known, exact location in relation to the cassette. The mech has the dropout as part of it too. So, SRAM can make everything to much closer tolerances, without needing make it fit hundreds of frames, mech hangers and droputs.
Is it? I mean they’re solving a problem they’ve created, if you don’t want sticks to jam your jockey wheel, just make them solid. To poke it full of holes and then have to add an extra feature to get around stuff wedging in said holes feels a bit over complicated…
😂😂
Well when you look at it that way then I’d struggle to argue!
But it’s still a clever (if pointless) bit if engineering imo!
One of the biggest changes is that instead of the derailleur being ‘somewhere about there, ish’ in relation to the cassette, and therefore requiring b tension and limit screws, the new mech is mounted directly through the axle, in a known, exact location in relation to the cassette. The mech has the dropout as part of it too. So, SRAM can make everything to much closer tolerances, without needing make it fit hundreds of frames, mech hangers and droputs.
Not entirely, there's still the hub manufacturer, although you'd hope that making the freehub and end caps of the hub the right length would be easy. Which is pretty much the same as the current system. And while it's probably vaguely defined, UDH still needs the frame manufacturer to build it at the right angle (which was never that critical, it's out as soon as the bike sags anyway). The only thing that might be different is the thickness of the hanger but it still needs indexing so that's moot too.
And there's now 2x different B tension screws depending on chain length!
Called Magic Wheel, the XX derailleur’s lower jockey wheel has a wheel-on-wheel design. If its rotation is blocked, the outer portion can continue to turn on the inner section, reducing the chances of a chain jam.
If anyone else's skipping reading, and wondering:
"That oversized bottom pulley in the Inline Cage is called the Magic Wheel because its outer ring rotates independently from the inner spoked hub. Should a stick become lodged between pulley and cage, Magic Wheel takes over, and your chain can continue threading through the derailleur without a damaging jam or bind."
If the jockey wheel can spin from the edge then why bother having a bearing in the centre?
I thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
I’m clearly missing something
No the hanger was consumable to save the frame not the derailuer.
Daft daft daft money .. id rather spend that within a frame with a pinion gearbox .. Anyone got Zerodes number ...
id rather spend that within a frame with a pinion gearbox
I did. I wouldn’t again.
Which is pointless, it’s electric, just make it an option in the app you now need to configure it.
The point is that they have gone 55mm chainline and matched the cassette to it in order to drop 52mm cranks.
The spinning jockey wheel thing is done that way as having it permanently spinning like around the edge that would trash the wheel very fast as its just two plastic surfaces running over each other. This is designed to work for as long as it takes for you to notice the stick in there.
Place your bets on which member is gonna pre order first.😁
Won’t be me… working in a bike shop I can’t afford that wizardry. Maybe after the summer I’ll go GX AXS though
It’s just an arms race and somewhere along the trails you mentally switch off and decide you are happy with the kit you have!* 🙂
(*QR, 26″, 9sp, triple chainset for me!)
I hear you and agree with the sentiment although my implementation of it has allowed 27.5, 1x12, 200mm dropper, boost spacing.
I am glad I didn't stick to 2005 from a riding enjoyment point of view. 🙂
id rather spend that within a frame with a pinion gearbox
I did. I wouldn’t again.
Burn the heretic!!
@tomhoward
Why not?
You're the first person I've seen to say that the pinion gearbox isn't the cure to all cycling problems.
I said similar after test riding a Zerode Taniwha.
Loved the concept, the mass centralisation etc. Couldn't get on with the high friction twist shift, not the 30° of backlash when clocking the cranks.
The debate's an interesting one. This sort of high end gear has no real impact on most average MTBers. It'll be fitted to the very tippy toppy range of boutique frames that none of us buy anyway, and 99% of folks will never ride a bike with it fitted. The fact that it has a different cassette spacing or mount for the derailleur isn't going to stop designers fitting mechanical systems to bikes lower down in their ranges that we all buy with drivetrain technology that's available today, in fact I would suspect that gear like this (and mechanical XTR for example) are probably sold at a loss, especially as at this end of the spectrum the pressure to make teeny cosmetic changes to it year on year is tremendous.
You can see why Shimano has gone the other way to produce an "everyman drivetrain" with maximum compatibility that's long lasting and doesn't need constant updates to keep it attractive to a small group of folks who must have the latest and greatest. Leave the wireless stuff to SRAM who undoubtedly do it better than Shimano ever have anyway
Personally I love the tech, it's always cool to see engineers push the boundaries of what's possible, regardless of whether it's in your budget and I'm hoping that the prices of current wireless stuff will start to come down as a result of this release GX/XO1 AXS is on my radar as my current stuff wears out, with newer shinier stuff to attract the magpies, I'll be on the lookout for a bargain
.
somewhere along the trails you mentally switch off and decide you are happy with the kit you have!*
Very true.
Though I have some of the best suspension available to man, I'm quite happy with a mish-mash of 11sp Shimano & Sunrace transmission. If my mech takes a hit, I just bend it back. It's not so finnicky that I can't continue to shift reliably.
The spinning jockey wheel thing is done that way as having it permanently spinning like around the edge that would trash the wheel very fast as its just two plastic surfaces running over each other. This is designed to work for as long as it takes for you to notice the stick in there.
So its not even a proper sprag clutch? All that so they can stick some holes in? What if the stick is between the chain and teeth?
No the hanger was consumable to save the frame not the derailuer.
No need for it when the drivechain costs more than a new frame?
nickc
The debate’s an interesting one.
A) This sort of high end gear has no real impact on most average MTBers.
B) It’ll be fitted to the very tippy toppy range of boutique frames that none of us buy anyway,
C) and 99% of folks will never ride a bike with it fitted.
C doesn't mean A though
B) is interesting as that of course depends on that old "who/what are boutique" frames chestnut.
Typically any over ££££ bike but then most manufacturers sell the same bike at different spec levels and if you want decent suspension/wheels etc. you are forced to buy the more premium options ?
SRAM as usual will issue specs to frame builders that allow them to do sloppy production and manufacturing tolerances and then blame the frame manufacturers when the chainstays snap, the dropouts get worn by the teeth on the washer or the shifting is sloppy (as with GXP) so either the frame manufacturers are going to have to do Eagle specific chainstays/frames or all the frames are going to be affected. (Or 2x frames with a high end mechanical for people don't like batteries on bikes?)
A bit like now where you can't buy DECENT frames (not top end just decent) with QR/straight steerer etc. its just creating a bigger BSO/MTB gulf.. whereas Thru axles and tapered steerers are more obviously functional I don't actually see what "function" this performs over a £250 groupset?
I don’t actually see what “function” this performs over a £250 groupset?
The argument's redundant. For some folks it'll be worth it for just the tech or newness alone, for some it won't. The range of groupsets that's currently on offer for sale isn't going to disappear overnight by SRAM developing this.
The Eeyore's on this site will always bemoan any development in mountain biking that they can't retro-fit to their 20 year frame. Standards-schmandards; it's always been a meaningless point to me
The Eeyore’s on this site will always bemoan any development in mountain biking that they can’t retro-fit to their 20 year frame. Standards-schmandards; it’s always been a meaningless point to me
I think there's a middle ground between "standards schmandards" and standards getting in the way of progress.
The derailleur hanger has been in the same place since the 10-speeds in the 60's? Making it stiffer is probably a good thing, although that it's SRAM who's mechs have more play than the average professional sports team after a few muddy miles bringing it up as an improvement is quite ironic.
And if this really was the end goal of a coherent set of upgraded standards (XD, UDH), why not introduce it at least at the top level on day 1 and at least make them intercompatible? This is the 2nd all new system launched since GX 11-speed only 7 year ago!
Does this sort of thing mean better kit all-round at some point - yes
Is it an £1800 groupset designed to cynically lock users (including OEM's) into SRAM - also yes (unless Shimano make a radical departure and start making XD cassettes or a longer microspline 2.0, and adopt UDH).
Will they in 3 years time squish it back together again and make it 13 speed as the new mechs meant they didn't actually need to widen the spacing, in spite of the fact they could just do that now? - abso-bloody-lootley.
No need for it when the drivechain costs more than a new frame?
And remember, on a FS (because why would *anyone* have a HT with this on 😉 ), it is "only" the swingarm to replace.
thisisnotaspoon
Is it an £1800 groupset designed to cynically lock users (including OEM’s) into SRAM
Nothing (other than licensing the UDH) stopping you from fitting the UDH and a Shimano group.
Is it an £1800 groupset designed to cynically lock users (including OEM’s) into SRAM – also yes
Only if SRAM wanted to commit commercial suicide though. I'd be willing to bet money (and it's probably true of Shimano as well) that these sorts of groupsets are less profitable per unit than the X5 10 speed stuff you can still buy, or the Acera or Tourney stuff that Shimano churns out by the millions each year. It's not going to change it's entire range of mechanical mechs to this new design, and even if it does, then old style stuff will still be available for the lifetime of most bikes using it - and this has always been true
Does SRAM want it's flagship groupset on the top priced models of say: Santa Cruz or Yeti bikes? Yes of course it does, (so does Shimano) If they've designed a system that's good enough the buyers of those bikes will also want it. But there's obviously a commercial risk to them if bike manufactures choose not to build bikes around it, or - as has happened in the past if you share standards, it's used against you in a never ending war of incremental gains for no real purpose other than bragging rights.
But SRAM and Shimano also wants the 99% of other mountain bikers to keep buying it's existing ranges, because that's what pays the bills, not S-Works.
I don’t actually see what “function” this performs over a £250 groupset?
If it wasn't for these £2000 halo groupsets, pushing technology onwards (and the people buying them), that £250 groupset you're using would still be a 3x9 speed atrocity.
FYI, for Wiggle platinum customers, X01 is £1500. https://www.wiggle.co.uk/sram-x0-eagle-t-type-transmission-axs-groupset
Just a note for those happy Shimano is keeping it simple and mechanical and having lots of interchangability...
Hidden deep within a pinkbike podcast, the guy from shimano indicated he has spent a long time riding (as in, probably nearing production) an electronic groupset which includes the option of fully automatic shifting.
You heard it here second.
Also came here to say I'd rather replace a bent hanger, even for £30, than a £700 rear mech.
SRAM are saying that you can probably rely on the mech to shrug off most things, and even if you do manage to bust parts on it, its those parts which are sacrificial rather than the mech hanger, and can be replaced. I've gotta say, I've bent precisely two hangers and never destroyed a mech in what? 25-30 years of mountain biking, I think folks like to shout about it, but I don't think I'm a particularly careful, or lucky rider not to have had this happen more frequently. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there's more scars on my XO1 than I've ever seen on may mech I've owned before and it's just keeps on keeping on.
The risk is on them really, if it turns out not to be true, (that the system is pretty robust) than it'll fall back onto bike manufacturers to help customers out warranty-wise, and that will soon make it's way back to SRAM if that bill starts creeping higher and higher.
ta11pau1
If it wasn’t for these £2000 halo groupsets, pushing technology onwards (and the people buying them), that £250 groupset you’re using would still be a 3×9 speed atrocity.
I don't really buy in to that... which isn't the same as saying non of the tech has filtered down but SRAM and Shimano (and Box and Microshift and Sunrace - Campag if you do road) are all competitors and for as example someone would have introduced a clutch by now, others would copy and the 1x9 11-50 would still be available.
I don’t really buy in to that… which isn’t the same as saying non of the tech has filtered down but SRAM and Shimano (and Box and Microshift and Sunrace – Campag if you do road) are all competitors and for as example someone would have introduced a clutch by now, others would copy and the 1×9 11-50 would still be available.
But the clutch mech (no matter who made it first) would initially be introduced on the most expensive mech, and if no-one buys the expensive stuff, it doesn't get developed and therefore doesn't trickle down to the lower groupsets.
Like it or not, the cutting edge groupsets need to exist to move tech onwards, for the benefit of everyone. SRAM are undoubtedly selling these for a loss, or pricing then to expect not many to be sold, with the thousands of hours of r&d etc that will have gone into developing this.
1x, clutch mechs, narrow wide etc - none of it will have been cheap to design. And it's never going to be introduced on NX/Deore level stuff first.
and the 1×9 11-50 would still be available.
You do know that Box make a cassette called the Prime 9 that is a 1x9 11-50T system. Right?
The spinny jockey wheel thing is a good idea, i can't tell you the number of times my progress has been hindered by a stick going into there.
Oh, hang on, ermm, yeah, its zero actually.
Think SRAM need to update their ESG policy and / or start a charity to help the people of STW afford a group set these days.
Torn between thinking cycling should be accessible to all and just needing to ignore this as a product segment / category that didn't exist when I got into the sport. XTR was always a luxury but attainable if you really wanted it. Just not quite sure who the audience is for X01 at £2k a group set.
nickc
I’ve gotta say, I’ve bent precisely two hangers and never destroyed a mech in what? 25-30 years of mountain biking, I think folks like to shout about it, but I don’t think I’m a particularly careful, or lucky rider not to have had this happen more frequently.
I'm maybe 2-3 hangars and a few bent cages that have bent back or been replaced for £25 .. a few jockey wheels etc. and unless you have SX/NX with the plastic bush (that can be replaced with the GX metal one) same here that I've rarely seen a destroyed parallelogram... maybe a bolt come loose etc. but that's mostly it in years.
As luck would have it I bent a mech last week .. cage got a bit bent swallowing some wood but a bit if a twist and bend and its working again.
The risk is on them really, if it turns out not to be true, (that the system is pretty robust) than it’ll fall back onto bike manufacturers to help customers out warranty-wise, and that will soon make it’s way back to SRAM if that bill starts creeping higher and higher.
Not really because SRAM have form on this... they published the frame tolerances for GXP BB's that turned out to wreck the BB so they just changed the spec of the frame tolerances and made it the bike companies problem rather than actually improve their engineering and tolerances.
Meanwhile the whole clevis thing makes the dropouts vulnerable and the toothed bit to bite into carbon or alloy is just going to incrementally wreck dropouts especially as the tolerances on the dropout thickness will need to be so tight (presumably they will need facing and at some point filing down and shims or the whole mech is going to wobble?)
nickc
You do know that Box make a cassette called the Prime 9 that is a 1×9 11-50T system. Right?
Exactly... and Microshift do a fairly decent range as well.. not to mention basic Deore 10 and 11sp
One thing is certain, you can't have 11-50 on the new Eagle as it needs to be even teeth 😉
XTR was always a luxury but attainable if you really wanted it.
The equivalent to this SRAM set would be what XTR di2? That's still wired, and still 11 speed, oh, and retail is £510.00 for the mech, If I had the money, I know that I wouldn't be looking at Shimano right now.
Exactly…
Right, I don't understand what your driving at then, sorry.
Goodness, imagine a private company innovating and coming up with new products for them to sell, to keep their company going and making money. They should still be making triple chainsets and handing them out for free, anything else is obviously some sort of high level plot to extract money from the average Single Track reader. Don't like it or see the point of it, don't buy it !
ta11pau1
But the clutch mech (no matter who made it first) would initially be introduced on the most expensive mech, and if no-one buys the expensive stuff, it doesn’t get developed and therefore doesn’t trickle down to the lower groupsets.
Like it or not, the cutting edge groupsets need to exist to move tech onwards, for the benefit of everyone. SRAM are undoubtedly selling these for a loss, or pricing then to expect not many to be sold, with the thousands of hours of r&d etc that will have gone into developing this.
1x, clutch mechs, narrow wide etc – none of it will have been cheap to design. And it’s never going to be introduced on NX/Deore level stuff first.
I'm not buying it... I'm not saying that's not how it happened, I'm saying that doesn't have to be HOW it happens. Having developed the clutch (come-on its not that expensive to design its more the good idea) there was no reason other than making people buy the expensive stuff not to introduce it on Deore/NX. If people (me included) hadn't bought in to a 1x and clutch enough to find the money for the higher end mechs they'd have just released a Deore level one when their main competitor did.
TBH can't remember the "who did it 1st" but that's the point whoever did the other had to follow be that at mid entry level or high end level or all.
Nothing (other than licensing the UDH) stopping you from fitting the UDH and a Shimano group.
Except that without some jiggery pokery it seems like the microspline cassette would be in the wrong place.
If Shimano did adopt UDH my money would be on it being 13-speed. Another 12s freehub would be a difficult sell.
Although bear in mind Shimano already has a patent for a 14 speed drive chain with rollerless chains that latched onto the side of the next sprocket up as well as the one they sat on. So who knows.
The lower jockey wheel thing could have been solved with a far simpler solution of just making the thin plastic thing have no holes for sticks to go through... which has never happened to me in 35 years of constant riding anyway. Maybe I'm not 'serious' enough for this level of aspirational guff.
I predict many broken carbon swingarms as the impact forces make their merry way to the next weakest link.
nickc
Right, I don’t understand what your driving at then, sorry.
I think the same as you... the wide range 1x would still be here regardless of it being introduced into premium SRAM/Shimano first anyway... no need for XD and microspline to get 11-50 and I'm struggling over that advantage 10T gives...
Except that without some jiggery pokery it seems like the microspline cassette would be in the wrong place.
If Shimano did adopt UDH my money would be on it being 13-speed. Another 12s freehub would be a difficult sell
I'm using a microspline cassette with udh right now, seems to be working fine. Should it not be compatible?
endoverend
I predict many broken carbon swingarms as the impact forces make their merry way to the next weakest link.
Not just carbon .. (though the current market is probably aimed at people buy carbon frames) but the teeth on the washer that hold the thing still are designed to cut into alloy every time you do up and undo the rear wheel...
I’m not buying it… I’m not saying that’s not how it happened, I’m saying that doesn’t have to be HOW it happens.
Doesn't matter if you're not buying it, it's called trickle down technology and it's been happening for years in all sorts of areas. Cars, computers, phones, in fact lots of stuff you use probably has some tech that was originally developed in a NASA space program and has then go onto be used in every day appliances.
The reason why it's expensive is because it's expensive to make. They're not churning out xx wireless mechs at the same rate as they produce sx mechs - cutting edge tech is expensive to make at first. Why in the hell would they sell a mech that probably costs a few hundred to make (recouping r&d costs mostly) for £150/at a huge loss?
But nah, let's not further technologies, let's all be happy with a club and a spear and fire.
These threads with anything remotely new or 'different' or, god help us... expensive, always go the same way. I guarantee the release of the first dropper post would have had a similar theme! Or the first carbon framed MTB, or the first disc brake...
The equivalent to this SRAM set would be what XTR di2? That’s still wired, and still 11 speed, oh, and retail is £510.00 for the mech, If I had the money, I know that I wouldn’t be looking at Shimano right now.
Nice to see this is being ignored by everyone...
I'll point out that XTR Di2 launched in 2015, for £2500.
Two and a half thousand pounds. In 2015!!!
And people are moaning about a £2000 cutting edge groupset in 2023...
thisisnotaspoon
Except that without some jiggery pokery it seems like the microspline cassette would be in the wrong place.
If Shimano did adopt UDH my money would be on it being 13-speed. Another 12s freehub would be a difficult sell.
There are hundred of bike models with UDH today using microspline. You can't mix and match with these new SRAM parts, but manfacturers can offer those bikes with Shimano groupsets and UDH hangers, or with this new SRAM stuff (9and no hanger) - not locked into SRAM
letmetalktomark
Full MemberI thought the mech hanger on the frame was meant to be a consumable unit to help save the mech in the event of a crash. Does this approach of connecting the mech risk all of that?
So this is pretty complicated really. Partly, a sacrificial part has to be weaker than the part it's saving, which means inevitably you have a less durable bike. And that means that some of the time when the sacrificial part breaks, it's not actually saving the part at all because it's reached the threshold where the hanger breaks, but it's still below the point where the mech breaks. And that can be pretty wide! Like, my Hemlock's hangers were made of monkey metal and they definitely caused more damage than they saved, over time. MC made me some nice cnc ones that were far stronger and I never had another mech incident after that.
But then you have to add in what happens next. Does the mech go in the wheel? The sacrificial hanger can create more damage than would have happened otherwise in that way too. Does the hanger damage the frame?
That last one's really important- people think this design will damage their frame (more on that later), but forget that disposable hangers can do that too, if the part twists or- again- if it lets the mech go where it shouldn't.
Over time, quality bikes have mostly aquired stronger hangers. Breaking a mech hanger or bending a steel frame used to be commonplace, but when was the last time you had it happen, except on a bike that used an older hanger design? The hangers on all my bikes except for the shite synchros ones are pretty damn sturdy, and also very solidly attached to the bike. And yet, I've got a bunch of older busted mechs in the scrap box, and only a single one from the last few years.
So basically, that's a change that already happened, and we didn't really notice. And mostly because you don't notice when you crash and your mech doesn't fall off. We'd reached a point where the sacrificial value was massively reduced. I think it's totally possible in these days of expensive mechs that it was a net negative not positive. But either way, it wasn't massive.
So then you've got, will it break the frame instead of the hanger? And in the past, that was really a valid question. But the evolution of bolt-in axles changed that a lot. Now those chunky dropouts are usually also where the rear axle bolts in, meaning you have a very strong, triangulated structure,where you used to have a pretty much flat unsupported one, with a big lever attached (the hanger and mech).
The Sram UDH/T mech are similar in this bit to a bunch of existing systems, Trek ABP hangers are maybe the best example though, especially since Sram and Trek work closely together. And that's been around for at least a decade without issues. Basically the concept of making a stronger frame that can support strength instead of trying to protect a weaker frame with weakness has been tested to death.
So that means that damaging the frame with the mech is now really, really hard. Without a doubt, your odds of damaging a frame with a UDH/T mech are lower than your odds of damaging a frame with most traditional breakaways, it's not even going to be close.
So now the weakest point is definitely the mech. This is confusing people, they're saying "the mech isn't designed to be sacrificial, Sram say so". And it's true, but it's still the weakest point, it is a spindly long exposed movey thing whereas the frame is a big chunky reinforced triangulated thing. Breaking the latter using the former as your lever isn't going to work.
Breaking mechs sucks. Breaking really expensive mechs sucks more. But we get back into "when does it break". Losing the hanger, means losing "my hanger broke and my mech would have been fine except it went in the wheel and now the mech and the wheel are ****ed", at the same time as it loses "my hanger broke and nothing else did". That'll balance out a lot, as will "I crashed and nothing broke at all because everything is stronger than it used to be" That last one's going to be hard on SRAM, because like I say, you don't notice it when you crash and nothing happens.
So the maths of where the actual breakages are is uncertain. But then we add in the replacable parts.
And actually to me this is the shit bit. Everything else looks great to me, I won't be buying it because my 2 main bikes are 1) a decade old trek and 2) a supermarket fatbike. I'm not the customer, but it looks well thought out.
But, now you can buy bits for your T-mech X01. But not for your old GX Eagle 11 or 12. That's not progress, really, that's just shining a light on something that was bullshit and has been bullshit for years. You can buy limited spares for some mechs but even then, it's an incomplete range. Shimano are already in another league here, SRAM want to be congratulated for doing something they should already be doing. And they're probably going to keep it as an "advantage" for the new system, in that weird way that capitalism can make taking things away into a selling point.
But, on the plus side, it's a "designed for rebuilding" approach which is a step above "you can buy some of the parts", especially since damaged mechs often have multiple damaged bits. Replacing a cage then realising the parallelogram is bent is not a nice moment!
