[Closed] I'm a bird-murdering, sheep-worrying, landscape wrecker.

I would still look to notify the NT as the general public will see that, believe it to be gospel and then further their dislike of mountainbikers

Funny you should mention the New Forest - a recent FOI regards prosecutions under the byelaws revealed no record of any at all taking place

Draw your own conclusions as to what to do...

PS it's a bridleway so it's obviously been [s]designed to withstand bikes in all weather, unlike footpaths.[/s] randomly designated as such due to various random and arbitrary reasons, none of which include suitability for any given form of transport

I don't need faux science, i can just use my own eyes,

Binners, If I were you I'd still ask the NT if this was done with their approval.

Nice one Binners, the sign needs to go for all sorts of reasons or people reading it will otherwise take it as read then the myth becomes reality...

I love the way mtbers bury their heads in the sand

Funny you should mention the New Forest - a recent FOI regards prosecutions under the byelaws revealed no record of any at all taking place

Not surprised. To be prosecuted you would need to be caught and who exactly is going to catch anybody?

I have literally come across 2 wardens in 15 years so unless a rambler is going to try a citizens arrest (of a byelaw?) then pretty safe.

I know laws are laws but cycling in the slightly wrong place (as decided by some local ruling) is not one of the biggest ones to worry about.

All I can say is that it's a good job Binners hasn't seem Michael Wife Lane recently......
I have. And I'm not happy about that either! Though thats a minor issue really.

i've not ridden Michael Wife Lane for many years...whats happened there?

Good work Binners - you deserve a pint for that!

The commoners are probably part of these people - [url= http://www.foundationforcommonland.org.uk/stories/holcombe-moor-common-lancashire ]Foundation for Common Land[/url].

Reading their site makes me think that they are serving a good purpose - however the likelihood is that their sign is a ill informed. Its unlikely to be NT supported although the logo does of course add tremendous weight to their intention.

For me the biggest problem would be that walkers reading the sign will now be alerted to the 'facts' and will hassle us more. I think a stealth removal of the signs would be a better option!

Quite interested to read about the illegal raves etc especially given that the Bedrock Festival took place the other week in the quarry round the other side at the top of Crowthorn. Given the use of farmers fields for parking etc then i would imagine that it was with their blessing - financially anyway!

Binners, any response from Twitter?

Perhaps we should all start tweeting them about it to provoke a response?

For me the biggest problem would be that walkers reading the sign will now be alerted to the 'facts' and will hassle us more. I think a stealth removal of the signs would be a better option!

I think a factually accurate one in the same style would be much better

The signs will almost certainly have been put there by 3 arsey farmers who think they own the place the Holcombe Moor Commoners Association, without the knowledge or the involvement of the NT. Despite them only having grazing rights, there seems to be some confusion in their 3 heads about who actually owns the place.

Total Fail there! 🙄
No mention of
a) "land owning Tory voting tosspots"
b) "Hoi-ti-toi-ti, laaadi-da's"
c) "White Evoque owning Soft Southerners coming up here, taking our houses for their 2nd home Gin Palaces/Grouse shooting lodges"
d) "BBC executives and newsreaders and crayon wigglers and digital media folks, bringing their poncy Rocket Salad and Hummus and Sun dried Tomatoes"

Needs more Grrrr and Angst and less punctuation.

HTH's 😉

i've not ridden Michael Wife Lane for many years...whats happened there?

They've built a big fence right across the bottom of it, so you can no longer get a clean run down. Its not much of a problem as it is right near the ford/bridge, so you just have to chuck your bike over the gate before you get to the bottom. We've normally stopped by that point to pull Wittonweavers out of a ditch, or to try and bodge a smashed rear mech 😉 Its fair to say it doesn't like him, and he doesn't like it! 😀

It was Harry who tweeted them. I'll see if I can get any contacts in the local NT to have a quiet word with. I don't think theres any point in getting all huffy and indignant about it. Just point it out to them that their logos being used in this way

Not reading all that - but, what they are saying is : it's illegal to ride footpaths. Ok, we all know that.. but maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to the nature loving, animal caring, countryside-friendly attributes of MTBers by saying - these are the perfectly reasonable and caring purpose of these rules... ❓

just search on here for Cut Gate. Any number of threads see people being warned off after rain.

Is that because we all want to ride responsibly?! I just avoid Cut Gate in boggy conditions because it's no fun. PS it's a bridleway so it's obviously been designed to withstand bikes in all weather, unlike footpaths.

You may not care about the erosion but many of the posters on the Cut Gate threads give trail damage as a reason to avoid in bad weather. A lot of bridleways are not "designed" for anything (unless DCC have been at them with a JCB and a truck full of gravel).

Cut gate, it's obviously been designed to withstand bikes in all weather

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I think you're confusing it with a trail centre

it's illegal to ride footpaths.

Only in the same sense that its 'illegal' to throw a ball for your dog while walking along a public footpath...

Those pictures of Cut Gate show you what you want to see.

Is that a result of bikes erosion or bike traversing eroded ground?
Would that stream look any different if bikes had never traversed it?
Based on current usage, will Cut Gate look like a Soviet industrial apocalyptic nightmare in, ooo, say 3 weeks if MTBers keep riding it or will it not change much for the next 30 years?

No reporting without context...

Also, what Mr binners said about the land scape: A lot of what I see round M62/Peak District is tired, buggered, post industrial spoil that has about as much "natural unspoiltness" as kraft cheese squares.

Not saying it's not lovely, mind, and it deserves care but this seems more about rule "enforcement" than having common sense for the environment.

[i]Only in the same sense that its 'illegal' to throw a ball for your dog while walking along a public footpath...[/i]

It doesn't say that on here, so that's irrelevant to the discussion:

[img] [/img]<

BaronVonP7 - Those pictures of Cut Gate show you what you want to see...

What I want to see is a lovely ribbon of singletrack, more foot and bike traffic in inappropriate conditions isn't going to make that happen. There are no rules, its a self imposed / advisory voluntary ban when its far from its best

DezB - It doesn't say that on here, so that's irrelevant to the discussion

It was Harry who tweeted them.

It was. I've had no response. Feel free to have a pop at them yourselves.

t doesn't say that on here,

Maybe it should?

after all, NT Byelaws state dogs must be under proper control and effectually restrained from causing damage to property including plants and from injuring, annoying or disturbing any person, bird or animal.

Book 'em Danno!

Near me on Greenham Common there are signs warning about ground nesting birds being disturbed during nesting season... by dogs. They have sections of the common which are marked as being off limits to dogs where they shouldn't be allowed to roam, and dog friendly sections where they can be let off the lead.

Nothing about bikes. Strangely the bike riders prefer to stick to the trails and paths rather than charging across the heathland randomly and hence aren't seen as a threat to ground nesting birds.

That sign looks like a "I don't like bikes so any random reason will do" rather than actually caring about the birds, as they'd be banning dogs and walkers too.

I'm from Thatcham and ride Greenham and the best bit about the red markered areas for the stay away during breeding of small birds season, is they haven't taught the cattle or horses to be able to read the signs too, as they go trotting off........

 

It's the fact that the sign is aimed only at MTBers that annoys me. As already said above, other users cause the same problems.

Firstly the sign is not in compliance with the [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/307152/draft-tsrgd-schedules.pdf ]Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (Page 35, item 21)[/url] (specifically the bike symbol) and needs removing. Additionally, the sign [url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/97/section/57 ]'contains a false or misleading statement'[/url] (not just the riding on Footpaths part, all of it) and needs removing.

This means that the sign is [url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/36 ]unlawfully placed[/url]. Or in other words, the sign is actually more 'illegal' than what the sign purports to prevent 🙄

Lastly, *if* it was authorised by the Highways Authority [i]and[/i] the NT (which I very much doubt) then the sign definitely falls foul of their brand standards, specifically the wording. Either way the higher-ups at the NT probably won't be happy to see such a snotty (official or not) sign: -

Page 63 of their [url= http://brandcentre.nationaltrust.org.uk/downloads/2/NT_brand_standards_2014.pdf ]Brand standards[/url]

"Our tone of voice links directly to our values and behaviours"

[edit]

BTW, the Traffic Signs & NT Brand standards link to huge .pdf's, they're only FYI

I think you should just print out the post above and glue it to the sign

thepodge+1

Also please contact local National Trust and ask if they're aware of their logo being used in this way.

thepodge+2

Great work schnor..

😆

Not sure why Local farmers should produce a sign in Kilometres is it addressing roadies?

When I was a kid we used to go walking all over this moor and once found an unexploded mortar bomb. One of my mates decided to carry it home and a few weeks later when I went round to see if he was coming out it was proudly displayed on his mantelpiece. 😯

Yes - there is still live army firing in the adjacent fields - if the sheep dont miscarry with all that going on then i struggle to see how the biking will affect them.

In terms of bridleways i guess that you could count the full distance between the farm at Crowthorn over to Robin Hoods Well, plus a few extra bits around Peel Tower. I guess that that would be approx 10 km.

Bit late to this but...

1. I don't see ho riding on footpath disturbs nesting birds, worries sheep or causes localised flooding.

2. I can see how riding across the moors can do those things but the key is to not ride across the moors during nesting season (NT would be well advised to put signs up to warn all visitors of this), avoid sheep (the big white fluffy things are hard to miss) and only stick to proper trails when it's wet and muddy to stop erosion (goes for all users, especially big groups of walkers and horse riders).

3. I think it's time that a lot of footpaths were re-assessed and a lot turned into bridleways. Footpaths and bridleways are now mainly used for leisure, not for people walking to work down to the mines or for crossing the moors on their horse taking an important message for the King or whatever.

4. Put up signs during nesting seasons to warn people. Dogs and kids do waaaaay more harm than someone cycling down a man-made or natural trail.

5. A lot of farmers will move their sheep away from rights of way on the lead up to lambing and not put newborn sheep out in a field with a right of way, if they can avoid it. It would also be advised to put a sign up insisting that all dogs are kept on a lead across any land that they use for livestock and tbh I would put bins out for dog mess if it helps stop people leaving it. Which reminds me, we have some signs about the health risks to livestock of dog poo.

Saw this the other day, made me chuckle:

[img] [/img]

Be better if it said "You could be shot if your dog is found among sheep"

The dog didn't get in the car and drive their itself did it...

Michael's wife woods are now fenced off/out of bounds for forest maintainance, there's only the drainage gully which has been sanitised [ it was shite nayway ]

I also tweeted the NT the picture of the sign today. No reply as yet.

I am guessing that it is not there's, or official. They have opened longshaw in the Peak District to bikes by upgrading FP to permissive bridleways.

Plus my experience of dealing with NT in organising the Edale skyline fell race for several years is overwhelmingly positive in terms of encouraging access.

There's a cheeky section of FP opposite the fox house that leads to longshaw, past a private house. Plenty of people had ridden down it. The guy who lived there was not happy. The new sign on the gate says. 'Pedestrian entrance to longshaw' and gives directions of how cyclist should access longshaw. It worded positively - doesn't say look you fucjers we opened up footpaths for you to ride on and all you miserable bastards can do is ride ILLEAGALY PAST THST POOR MANS HOUSE!!!!

Cut gate, it's obviously been designed to withstand bikes in all weather

I think you're confusing it with a trail centre

i think you're confusing sarcasm with genuine comment 😉

Maybe consult Chris packham, bill oddie or other birdist to have a known take on what bothers ground nesting birds (The NT could pay for this if they're so concerned and get their facts right about what does cause ground nesting issues). The grouse at glentress don't seam to be that bothered about mtb'ists. 😀

I'm fairly sure that research has already been done and the info is readily available - as mentioned a few times earlier in the thread. I think we're also all agreed that the NT had nothing to do with those signs.

Commons are a nightmare to manage as a landowner, and a fair few commoners can be utter nuts. A very poorly put together sign to appease a few vocal people. Technically the footpath and moor access is correct if based on outdated ideas. The sheep one is possible, but a long shot, most stock are off the hill at that time of year around here.

If you can whinge louder than the commoners, the sign will probably disappear. Meets a lot of the design guide, so probably an NT sign.

The whole area is a post industrial revolution scar, ride up Holcombe and gaze at Fletcher Bank Quarry, marvel at Windy Harbours 100's of tons buried rubbish. Peel tower is a man made 'eyesore' that shouldn't be there, Peel Holdings windmills.....

That sign is going to get ripped off.

True.

It's such a beautifully ****ed up landscape round here.

People know when and where to ride.
Or walk, swim, or go for a barbeque.
All 3 at Gaddings dam, if you're from Todmorden.
🙂

Telling the people who helped create that landscape, through hard work: or for pleasure that they are no longer welcome isn't going to happen.

Bollocks to them.
Good work Binners, Harry & co.

i've fired off an email to their enquiry team on their website with the picture and a link to this thread....lets see if they bite.

Commoners have historic rights and a legitimate interest in how the land is managed but they shouldn't be permitted to shout down other legitimate users.

As owners of land historically open to the public the NT has some sort of obligation to consider the views of interested user groups and there should be some sort of forum of interested parties (The Ramblers, RSPB, etc)
One problem is lack of an obvious approachable and definitive body for mountain bikers - at last this is being addressed.

The NT own the land and unless there is a specific byelaw preventing cycling then as the landowners they can choose to permit cycling - the problem is the NT defaults to only allowing the minimum access allowed by (English) law to cyclists - access to bridleways only. The NT needs to reconsider its position and reverse this policy with the general assumption being that cycling should be allowed unless there are specific and genuine conservation or land management issues. Similar for other large owners of open land such as Yorkshire Water.
The recent opening of concessionary routes on the (Sheffield) Eastern Moors and the encouragement of mountain biking by Sheffield Wild Life Trust in Grenowoods are good examples of more enlightened thinking.

I tweeted at the NT Northwest Twitter account and got this reply today:

[i]thanks for this. We’re about to remove these signs and will review with Holcombe Moor Commoners Association.[/i]

Result 🙂

More than I got, I've emailed them twice and received no reply 😥

And I'm a member 🙄