[Closed] I'm a bird-murdering, sheep-worrying, landscape wrecker.

I am just a resident of Scotland, not Scottish... 🙂

#itwouldneverhappenhere 😉

Weirdly, the NT has just put in a MTB trail on their land near me, no sign of a "use this & no where else" campaign yet either

it's not the desire to keep out bikes that causes me to question it, just something about the way it's written.

I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"

Just a thought.

I've been accused of 'eroding a footpath' when I was riding across the clifftop on my way home. Fair enough I was riding on the Cleveland Way footpath with plenty of foot based erosion visible. I doubt my fatbike with 8psi in the 4.25" tyres would be causing much/any erosion & told the bloke as much.

I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"

Just a thought.

Heres another thought. Read my post. That's pretty much the gist of it? 🙄

Near me on Greenham Common there are signs warning about ground nesting birds being disturbed during nesting season... by dogs. They have sections of the common which are marked as being off limits to dogs where they shouldn't be allowed to roam, and dog friendly sections where they can be let off the lead.

Nothing about bikes. Strangely the bike riders prefer to stick to the trails and paths rather than charging across the heathland randomly and hence aren't seen as a threat to ground nesting birds.

That sign looks like a "I don't like bikes so any random reason will do" rather than actually caring about the birds, as they'd be banning dogs and walkers too.

I'm planning to make an approach under PMBA to discuss the issues,already emailed the Chair

The sign has been up a few weeks, there is second one at the top of Robin Hoods Well.

I would suggest not broadcasting group rides through a local NT wood for a while might help as well 😉

A second aspect is that there are probably a few footpaths on the Moor with a good chance of a higher rights claim.

My main worry - isn't that the commoners don't like us, or even the NT, it's that all the bloody self-righteous moaners will read it and it'll give them even more reason to hate cyclists and have a rant - even though it's all completely unfounded (as always).

You can just picture them saying 'see' and practising their rant to include 'ground-nesting birds' which they previously hadn't thought of.

I would suggest not broadcasting group rides through a local NT wood for a while might help as well

The thing is BnD, we're pretty sensible. We stay off the tops, out of the woods, and on the hardpack when the conditions aren't ideal, and we know we'd be churning it up. We're not idiots! That why I really object to the tone of that sign.

As for the other issues: just spurious nonsense IMHO

NIMBYists!

We maintain 10 kids delivering the Daily Mail for you - please stay on your High Horses.

It is illegal to consider any else’s point of view other than your own. By doing so you can seriously disturb your smug superior self worth, cause cows to miscarry and cause soil erosion which causes cancer.

We all value your elitism, please continue to shit on anyone who disagrees with you.

Thank you

National T@s

Holcombe Moor
We’re not ‘common’ at all
Association

kayak23 - Member
...

Sign says bridleway. Makes him a legitimate user no?

It does, it also mentioned sheep. There is no complaint on the sign about him riding either of those.
In relation to the sign it *is* complaining about the riding of footpaths, where cyclists are not a legitimate user.

I'd be inclined to ask if there are genuinely no dogs on leads/no dogs in nesting season etc signs. Those are about as common place as the gates here, so any new sign wouldn't mention them, they already have signs addressing that issue, same as the sign doesn't say please stick to the way marked paths.

binners - Member
I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"
Just a thought.

Heres another thought. Read my post. That's pretty much the gist of it?

Thats good then, seems we think a similar way on this point.

Try riding round an SSSI that has a trail centre in the middle of it (Cannock)

Signs all over the place usually a couple of weeks before the area is flattened by the loggers

Just wanted to check - this is all 'ooop North right?
With them northerners who are much more friendly and sociable than us southerners 😆
or so I keep getting told by northerners...

It isn't illegal to ride on the moor is it? Not that I've ever done so, I don't even know where this is. But a trespasser isn't normally breaking any laws that I'm aware of.

It's just as illegal to have a picnic - the rights are (normally) to pass and repass, not to sit down and have a meal. Put up a sign saying "no stopping" and see how long it lasts.

Holcombe Moor Commoners Association

Are they real?
Did the NT really do this?
Like Binners I ride repectfully and the mapping and the issues are BS

Some areas I can ride legally would be massively irresponsible and some footpaths locally are old hard packed cart routes now called footpaths
As the rules are not sensible I dont follow them
YMMV

Some areas I can ride legally would be massively irresponsible and some footpaths locally are old hard packed cart routes now called footpaths
As the rules are not sensible I dont follow them
YMMV

Pretty much bang on. I wouldn't stir the pot by seeking to engage formally - you'll be on a hiding to nothing and make yourself more 'known' to them.

Accept that you are in the wrong - technically. Accept that the anti-MTB stance has nothing whatsoever to do with the supposed reasons and a whole lot more to do with miserable sods. Carry on riding as normal. If you see anyone who looks like they want a barny just get off and push until out of sight. If they want stupid rules, they'll have to police it - properly - most people won't want the rigmarole of doing this.

centralscrutinizer - How can someone find out if there is a specific local bye law related to a footpath?

This is something I'd be interested in too

Soil erosion? I blame all those [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tortoise-missing-near-peel-tower ]missing tortoises[/url] tortoises rampaging around the moor.
But at least [url= http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/13370898.Missing_pet_tortoise_returns_home_after_nine_months/ ]Buttercup[/url] has now returned home.

Holcombe Moor Commoners Association

Altogether now....

" It's fun to fight with the H.....M.....C...A...." 8)

If you see anyone who looks like they want a barny just get off and push until out of sight.

" do you know this is a footpath
"yes"
" so you know but you dont care"
" I care just like the kinder trespassers cared when they were not allowed

In general its pointless trying to explain why the "laws" are poor

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

Dpends mylast one was - and this was all hardpacked man made footpath

" do you know this is a footpath
"yes"
" so you know but you dont care"
" I care just like the kinder trespassers cared when they were not allowed

In general its pointless trying to explain why the "laws" are poor

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

Yes, but they're just trying to antagonise you. There are a substantial number of people who go around looking to be offended. What they like more than anything else is a bit of an argument.

I agree it is not always easy not to rise to it, but it really is best not to.

On the other hand I have had the following encounter:

"Can't you read?"
"Yes, thanks"
"Then why are you riding that bike here?"
"Because I can make my own mind up about stupid rules. By the way, are you the landowner or their appointed agent?"
"Err, no"
"Thought not"

I was put off NT years ago after meeting one of their directors while on holiday. I remember the words mentioned "need to contain mountain biking". I think sums up their attitude. I do not believe they want to give access to anyone outside their own interest group. In terms of data protection from DVLC number plates, I believe "private car park operators" can buy that information so it is not secure.

So would it be unreasonable to contact NT

No, but be nice about it.

On your FB post you mentioned that lots of trails were reclassified from BWs to FPs? This would be a legitimate grievance IMO. Otherwise, complaining about not being able to do what you want with someone else's land is not going to get you far.

"need to contain mountain biking".

Then all the more reason to contact them and enlighten them that we're not all scumbag yoofs tearing the place up.

Just wanted to check - this is all 'ooop North right?

With them northerners who are much more friendly and sociable than us southerners

Its probably some poncey southerner who's just moved up with the BBC, cashed in the Equity on his Central London Townhouse, bought a massive barn conversion on the Moor, given himself the title Holcombe Moor Commoners Association, and started issuing dictats, because he thinks he now owns the place 😉

Its never the locals you have an issue with. I've never had grief when riding the footpaths, as we always do it considerately. Just a friendly hello. Which is why I don't get this. Its not Ambleside, or somewhere. Its a heavily worked post-industrial landscape, full of old quarries and derelict buildings. Sounds to me like the busy-body fun police looking for reasons to stop anything they don't personally like. I'm seriously dubious about this being an official NT communication, so i think I'll (politely) get in touch with them and find out what the score is

Careful now aggrieved Northerner...

You do have a tendency to blame "southerners", a tendency to pick on Tories, a tendency to point the finger at BBC types taking hold in your part of the county/country.

Some might think you start threads just to have a poke at these distinctly different social classes to that that can be found up there.

Fine line...

Some might think you start threads just to have a poke at these distinctly different social classes to that that can be found up there.

To be honest, I start threads to moan. I like moaning. And swearing. Those people you mention are just the ones i deem to be the most deserving of my contemptuous loathing. There are loads more. Its easier to just ask who isn't, really?

Come on though. Its a pretty tenuous suggestion that I started this thread so that I could blame the Tories? Though ultimately, it is probably Fatcha's fault

Anyway... I'm on my first 24 hours as a non-smoker. Give it another couple of days and I'll be a seething mass of pent up rage, ready to lash out in the most unhinged way at pretty much everyone

Just giving you the heads up 😀

From Foundation for Common Land:

You may have noticed on that page that the main owner is given as National Trust. A quick look at an OS map confirms that they do indeed own parts of it. As for the Commoners Association though......

Just ride where you like if you stick to footpaths the bird don't care if you are on foot or on a bike and the sheep are not breeding at this time of year and are no more scared of you on a footpath than on a bridleway, so where's the harm.

Beware the tortoise though, ours is quite nasty and bites.

Given the location of that sign a better use would be, removing it and clog dancing on it.

A "commoner" is someone who has certain rights on the land in question (grazing, mining/quarrying, peat cuttingetc) these can by historical connected to surrounding properties and individuals and go back a before the enclosure act to pre Norman times (as the Holme Valley)

In terms of data protection from DVLC number plates, I believe "private car park operators" can buy that information so it is not secure.

That's not the problem here, it's more that to store data you have to have a valid reason to do so. If the NT are keeping records of reg numbers and (presumably derived from the reg) personal details just because they 'think' someone in the car 'might' be riding a bike, then I can't see that being a valid reason. Therefore I'd suggest they'd be in breach of the DPA (even if they've just kept a list on paper)

I have no problem with you picking on any social (or anti-social) group.. Nor picking on those that you feel are endangering Northern Life...

Just don't hide it in a thread about Access Rights 😆

Start a proper whinge about it.

Anywhoo's, us Southerners have brought you Northerners all sorts of "good things". We sent up the BBC lot who were bothering us lot here something rotten, and with it came a huge glass edifice portal for you lot to point at and poke fun with.
We sent up rocket salad to you, which I'd imagine you thought was lettuce on a stick sent to the ISS once every month in some projectile, or other.
We sent up hummus too.. and who can't stop laughing when all your tiles came off the walls..
We also sent you Rapha.

Don't thank us all, all at the same time, thank us one by one eh.. 😀

Good luck with kicking the smoking habit... feel free to start a thread on it, include Fatcher in there somewhere for balance.

😆

The ex employee in question spotted the relevance of the list "suspect illegal mtb'ers" as his brothers name was on it.
Just cause things are questionable under data protection does not mean that "respect bodies" do not get up stuff they should not like the Police. They may consider that it's the right thing to do.

Oops! Thick person in action. Double post.

piedi di formaggio - its another one of Glorious Leader Blairs gifts to the nation. Under his uber-draconian 'anti-terrorism' laws (that must have had the North Koreans looking on enviously), pretty much any government agency, or quango, (the National Trust being a typically suitable example of what 'anti-terrorism was meant to cover - suicide bombing squirrels perhaps?) can gain access to pretty much any information they like, on the flimsiest of pretexts, if in fact they have to give any reason at all.

See Bikebouy, I'm spreading blame around 😀

[img] [/img]

It's anti terror in it? Could venture that would be a good reason for stopping folk biking. "It's to stop sheep terrorism". Perhaps the known unknown is that an Orange Alpine 160 is a weapon of mass sheep distruction.

Yeah, but in that picture he's saying 'yeah, that's fine. You can ride your bike up there'. Obviously, he follows that up with 'release the hounds'

Here's what the DVLA say

https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla

You can request details of a vehicle’s registered keeper and certain other information from DVLA if you have ‘reasonable cause’.
Why you might make a request

‘Reasonable cause’ can include:

finding out who was responsible for an accident
tracing the owner of an abandoned vehicle
tracing the owner of a vehicle illegally parked on private land
issuing parking tickets
tracing people responsible for driving off without paying for goods and services
tracing vehicle owners suspected of insurance fraud

What information you can request

You can ask for:

details of a vehicle’s registered keeper
information about previous keepers for a vehicle now registered in your name
information the DVLA holds about you

Private car parking management companies can only request information from the DVLA if they’re members of the British Parking Association or the Independent Parking Committee."

 

Unless there is a by-law in place, expressly prohibiting it, it is not "illegal" to ride on a footpath.
I'd be surprised if the NT were so ill-informed about access law as to not realise the issue with the wording of that sign.

Just sent them a tweet. Will report back if they bite. I agree about staying out of Bucky Woods though.

Strangely the bike riders prefer to stick to the trails and paths rather than charging across the heathland randomly and hence aren't seen as a threat to ground nesting birds.

I'm a bird-murdering, sheep-worrying, landscape wrecker.

Shouldn't you have included "Greggs stalking" as well?