[Closed] Ignorant MTB'ers -Derwent/Ladybower, yesterday.

Thanks to you, some of my fellow walkers are now convinced that we're all a bunch of ignorant idiots

If said walkers are going to judge the behaviour of [b]all[/b] MTBers on the actions of one group, then I'd suggest that ignorance is not exclusive to your rogue bikers.

Rusty - there are cocks in all areas of life. It is frustrating, and you are right to point it out - hopefully someone may read and change/think.

The Peak does seem to attract its fair share of muppets on bikes - a couple of guys were ragging around Higgar Tor, Owler Tor and Toads Mouth as well on DH bikes yesterday, and had deaf ears to very pleasant suggestions that they were not allowed there and not helping MTB relations and access in the Peak...

Never seen so many MTB'ers about,

Precisely the reason I dont ride in the Peak anymore.

Most who passed us left plenty of room, and were polite and friendly - apart from one group:

Thanks to you, some of my fellow walkers are now convinced that we're all a bunch of ignorant idiots

???

trailmonkey - true, but that's human nature, basic design flaw.
People tend to focus on the bad and ignore the good. One bad apple etc.

Sadly, due to this one group of idiots, all the friendly bikers that passed us yesterday were forgotten - the older members just seem to remember our friend and his lovely attitude.

TBH, as someone who cycles and walks I'm used to seeing both sides of the story, but this really was the worst example of trail etiquette I've seen in years.

i can't belive i'm going to say this - but i don't know why more of us don't get bells.
I have a small 'ping' type one and my mrs has a 'barbie' one and its amazing how well they work at warning walkers/ other trail users. Every time I use it walkers move out of the way asap and almost all of them say hello/ thankyou.
I really don't care what they look like because their benefits far out weigh this. So thats my tuppence.

Precisely the reason I dont ride in the Peak anymore.

Its a shame, but in the last couple of years I have become frustrated with numbers of people, mtb'ers and walkers and all others in the Peak. Yes you can get away, but it has taken the edge off visiting, especially on a nice sunny weekend..

willyboy - I am with you on the bells - walkers expect a bell - hear a ting - expect a bike.

I don't like it when walkers take up the whole bridleway, and give you huffy remarks as you politely ask to be let through, but it doesn't mean I dislike everyone who decides to go for a walk in the countryside.

Idiots walk, ride bikes, drive cars, whatever, that is a given, but to tar a whole group of innocent people because of the actions of a few is a bigger issue IMO.

😕

Bells for the win. 8)

walkers expect a bell - hear a ting - expect a bike.

I was trying to extricate my son from a stone wall (don't ask) the other day, and heard a "ting, ting" and had NO IDEA what it was. Then saw a bike.

My brain was thinking "a bell? why can I hear a little bell?"

A bit of me (blush) thought it was tiny pixies.

Bells for the win.

*high fives all fellow bell owners*

If you heard a tiny pixie ringing a bell at you you'd get out the way though, no? They have sharp teeth and are vicious little beggars.

Rich, you are right.

We shouldn't judge everyone on the behaviour of the minority - however it's the idiots, whether walkers who spread out and deliberately block paths so cyclists can't pass, or cyclists who refuse to slow down that really cause attitudes to harden.

As for the bell thing, yes, this was mentioned by the oldies.
Personally, I prefer a nice loud 'Excuse me!' accompanied by a big smile.
I can never 'place' bells, no idea whether they are coming from the left or right, whereas voices seem to be easier.

I use a bell and walkers love me 🙂

Not only that, but they magically step aside and wave me through, more often than not.

Amazing how far a bit of empathy can get you … not that you see much of that on this forum. 🙂

walkers expect a bell - hear a ting - expect a bike

not on [b]this[/b] planet! I've watched walkers when I had a bell, they look at each other, they peer into the sky, they look puzzled. "Why can I hear a bell in the countryside?", they're obviously thinking. The Air Zounds was good (thanks [b]samuri[/b]), they'd think it was motorbike or a car and run for the bushes - however I decided it was not diplomatic...

Actually sfb I've seen that too - thing is, when they do realise what it is, they're nearly always positive and cheerful about it, instead of grumpy at feeling barged when they're shouted at.

Alternative to bell = shouting = difficult not to sound aggressive.

Bell = cheerful, polite, happy.

I tend to use the bell from a distance away and 90% of the time the walkers happily get out of the way. Backed up with a "just letting you know we are here" just before you pass and a cheery " lovely day - thanks" as you go past

[i]I use a bell and walkers love me [:-)] [/i]

I used to use a bell. And a lot of walkers commented upon how it was 'rude to just ding a bell and expect us to move'. I find it's much better if you use a polite 'excuse me please'.

Was coming down Garburn the other day to a group of walkers coming up, they'd seen us a mile off and yet just didn't move out of the way, we had to near stop half way down to pick our way through them.

I'm now trying to convince my fellow riders that natural trails are better than trail centres thanks to these walkers. Hmpf

a lot of walkers commented upon how it was 'rude to just ding a bell and expect us to move'.

People like that, push 'em in a ditch.

Sack the bell, this is what you want:
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_catalogId_10151_storeId_10001_partNumber_213009_langId_-1

That way when you rip up the crag rats you can rev your 450cc single behind them and get tarred as an Enduro rider.

Seriously though - i can appreciate the frustrations of the OP in terms of his difficulties with changing attitudes but why do they have attitudes that need changing in the first place? I live, work and ride in the Lakes and the general attitude of walkers is of either 1. walk in the middle of the bridleway and pretend the bike doesn't exist in spite of the bell or polite excuse me or 2. decide for you what is too fast / dangerous or idiotic behaviour in spite of your suitably reduced pace and wide berth. The exceptions to this are generally the people who are frequent visitors / residents who have come to accept bikes as part of the landscape. The infrequent visitors who seem to think the bridleways are their sole preserve seem to be the ones with a bad attitude towards bikes in general regardless of the riders consideration. Unfortunately the infrequent visitors far outweigh locals/regular visitors (from a selfish point of view not an economic one).

Alternative to bell = shouting = difficult not to sound aggressive.

My bells always got smashed in crashes after few weeks, they're just not study enough 🙁 These days I go "Beep, beep!" in a cheery fashion which seems to work OK :o)

I'm now trying to convince my fellow riders that natural trails are better than trail centres thanks to these walkers. Hmpf

Get new friends! Anyone who thinks a trail centre is better than Garburn is a tart :o)

simon - did you run round the school playground pretending to be a car as a small child?

I find shouting "Badger!" makes people look.

simon - did you run round the school playground pretending to be a car as a small child?

who said I ever stopped ?

"excuse me" is ambiguous - you might have meant you'd chosen the fish knife by mistake, or were wearing a blazer before 3pm.

Sometimes it works better when you're on a bike though.

those kids always made me smile - especially when they got to their teenage years and hadn't changed

Anyone who thinks a trail centre is better than Garburn is a tart :o)

I agree with SFB? miracles, miracles....

Ride naked, most people see you AND give you a wide berth.

Maybe someone should patent some cool looking bells, Fox, Raceface, Hope etc. then maybe more people wouldn't be embarrased putting something so pants on a realy nice looking expensive bike. You wouldn't go to Oxfam to dress a super-model would you?

Seriously though - i can appreciate the frustrations of the OP in terms of his difficulties with changing attitudes but why do they have attitudes that need changing in the first place?

freeride_gear - They are getting on a bit. Four of them are over 70. These four have also been roadies in the past and three still ride occasionally. Seeing bikes out on the trails in huge numbers is quite a recent phenomenon for them, despite the fact that they have been outdoors people (walkers climbers, skiers etc) all their lives.

Perhaps it's possible that they were brought up in a time when politeness was more prevalent than it is today? Just a thought.

These are quite effective
[url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?PartnerID=79&ModelID=20105 ]Air horn[/url]

I dinnae like bells either. I think there's an element of "get out of the way" in them. Slow down, speak to folk on the way past. There shouldn't be any need to shout.

Esme - as an aid to identifying idiots, possibly. 🙂
As an aid to trail harmony, I doubt it. 😐

Rusty Spanner - Member

We shouldn't judge everyone on the behaviour of the minority

Saying that, the government have been doing it for years. 😆

AndyP - Member

I use a bell and walkers love me [:-)]

I used to use a bell. And a lot of walkers commented upon how it was 'rude to just ding a bell and expect us to move'. I find it's much better if you use a polite 'excuse me please'.

Just shows you cant please everyone.

Expect people to be idiots and you can't be let down. 😉

8)

i can't belive i'm going to say this - but i don't know why more of us don't get bells.

Definitely dont like bells, I've only had negative reaction from any form of warning walkers of my presence, from a pleasant cough to a cheery hello/excuse me, they usually take it as "I own the path and want you to move" and several times have had abuse just from saying hello. I find it far easier just to say hello as I pass, by which time its too late for them to get het up about it and it to turn into an argument. Just give plenty of room or wait to pass at a wide bit.

To attract the attention of walkers, we tend to shout out random snippets of conversation to each other as we approach. Never fails to clear the trail. Bells are just one more item to hurt yourself with on those frequent trips OTB.

Get new friends! Anyone who thinks a trail centre is better than Garburn is a tart :o)

It was all a bit tongue in cheek that last bit 😉

Although did do Whinlatter yesterday for the first time without snow, great little trail, although doesn't come close to coniston area for riding

I blame Thatcher.

its too late for them to get het up about it and it to turn into an argument.

an argument as well would be a bonus :o)

You can't win: ring a bell and you get told it's rude and you're expecting people to move, don't ring a bell and get told "use a bell!"

To the OP: unfortunately there are idiots in all walks of life. The individuals who rode past your group will be the same people who drive 6" from your bumper in their BMW's flashing their headlights...

Allways reckon if they cant hear hope pro 11 hub they won't hear a bell never really have a problem up here is Scotland I allway slow right down and I allway say thankyou as I pass

I was out in the Peaks yesterday, did about 35 miles up and down most of the popular climbs and descents in the Edale and Derwent areas. Saw absolutely loads of bikers and walkers and most walkers were very polite and stepped aside, many even held gates open for us, but there's always a group, normally, senior chaps, who spot you coming and then get into formation to block your path!
Having checked Memory Map when I got back I realise we'd ridden up the footpath to the top of Mam Tor, not one rambler seemed to object and most gave encouragement.
It does p155 me off when you get 1 or 2 toss pots who spoil it for the rest of us!

Old people can't hear very well and they don't really hear bells either, they get scared as they couldn't hear you approach and then even passing the other side of a double track at low speed can give them a fright...

They'll believe the world isn't what it used too be and young whippersnappers are going to fast, they'll get back to car / coach and finish the sudoku in the Daily Mail / Telegraph then proceed to drive at 40 mph through every 30 mph camera on the way home and claim its a conspiracy if they get a ticket.

This was my experience at the weekend.

i'm not anti-bells, but using a bell is not automagically 'polite'. If you approach a group of walkers and you know that you need to stop/slow down/etc then just stop/slow down/etc - don't start pinging and expect anyone to move for you. How many of us like it when we have to use the road and a car comes up behind us giving it a polite 'move over i'm coming through' on the car horn?! If you want long flowing trails without walkers then go find them.

Everyone just buy Hope Pro II's.

Bells - you can tell when they have heard you 'cos they react. A single Ping from 30m away then another at 10 m away if they haven't reacted. Couple this with "just letting you know I am here" - you are not using the bell to tell them to get out of your way but to alert them to your presence. then a thanks - if they let you past easily.

Be polite as well.

I do find the reactions much better when using a bell in this way. Walkers expect a bell to mean a bike is about

I have to agree with TJ. I don't just ping the bell and hope, you may have to do it again and i always say thankyou or have a quick chat with them as I/ we pass.
Its not hard to be polite; i think thats whats missing in the majority of cases.

[img] [/img]

or the next best thing.... a Hope ProII freehub.

. The little pingy bell give about 90dB SPL at 1 metre. If you ding your be at about 16 metres your sound level will be diminished by about 24dB giving about 66dB add in wind factors, hearing loss (Many older people have a high frequency hearing loss) hoods and the fact that lots of walkers spend a lot of time talking and not listening for your nice polite bell, there is little chance they will hear you.

If you have something loud enough for them to detect you will probably scare them

Bell? Gay. I find speeding up to the back of them and then doing a massive skid, spraying them with grit and mud soon gets them moving. Makes me look cool too. BBBBRRRAAAAAP!

If you want to be an all day speed junkie spring & summer weekends then go to a trail centre not the Peaks.

If you want to be a speed junkie & use the Rights of Way in the Peaks spring & summer weekends, get up early & get out on the trails early. Currently my trail buddy & I start at 6.00 AM & get in a good four hour ride before things fill up. Or for day time riding outside of school holidays book a weekday off, Tuesdays & Wednesdays seam particularly people free.

On the Bridleway we the cyclist are supposed to Give Way to horse riders & walkers so if I am approaching a group spread out across the way that is what I do give way. If trying to overtake a group I use my bell & a friendly excuse me & if they chose not to let me pass easily I’ll shoulder the bike & walk past or wait for them to clear a section.

Two parties being ignorant of each other will remain two ignorant parties, be nice to all on the trail even if they are not. If necessary engage others in conversation & take off your cycle helmet & shades so you look less like an aggressor.

I have been around long enough to see my old past time of the 1970’s, motorcycle trail riding, marginalised by the introduction of aggressive scrambler type bikes, dress, & attitude. We walk, cycle, etc in the Peaks as a past time not as a sport. Embrace all because divided we are conquered & the National Park Quango’s will seek to legislate us out.

Keith T
Marple

take off your cycle helmet & shades so you look less like an aggressor.

or,

get one of these,
[img] [/img]

and one of these,
[img] [/img]

and walk with them!!

Buy an Orange, particularly the 5 or Patriot. They sound like machine gun fire on even the smoothest trails and even the most ardent of blocking parties will simply sh1t them selves at the sound of its approach (reminds them of the war you see).

I wonder if these old farts who deliberately block BW's do so to fell runners who are going much faster than themselves and can someone please tell me why the hell do a bunch of walkers go to both sides of a trail after seeing you coming down? It's great that they make room to let you pass then someone just moves back to the other side so reduces the amount of distance between you and them considerably - they really are worse than sheep sometimes --- AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGG

Get a stuka siren for downhills and an air raid siren for the level/ups. Sorted. Next problem.

All human life really is here isn't it?

Ozzo, perhaps their mystical powers of deduction have been ruined by too much Sanatogen and too many Werther's Originals? How dare they not know which side you intend to pass!

Thanks for all the replies, nice to get an overview of the STW attitude on this issue.

Funny how the older posters and those who are also walkers/climbers seem to be the most empathetic. Youth really is wasted on the young isn't it? 😉

Get a stuka siren for downhills and an air raid siren for the level/ups. Sorted. Next problem.

Bruce - Member

........................ there is little chance they will hear you.

If you have something loud enough for them to detect you will probably scare them

Not my experience at all. I find the polite bell works wonders - from 30 m away then repeated when closer if they haven't reacted. I am sure 90% of time it works well - coupled with being polite anyway

bigyinn

No, no war zone; but if I am going to chew the fat with a non-MTB trail user, yes frequently I take off my lid & glasses I just think its more friendly; also at 55 years of age I need an excuse to rest!
Keith T

As a walk leader. I have the same problems as the o.p. in trying to convince my mostly over 60s walking group that we mbters are a friendy bunch, who don't want to run them over, ruin the paths and like them are out to enjoy the countryside. It's been a long process, not helped by the odd numpty who witnessed by me has plowed though them.

I.M.O I find the walkers in the Lake District feel they own the trails and we shouldn't be on them.

We all have to get on. Our countryside is much used ( a good thing) and with an ever growing population, these sorts of things are going to become more of a problem.

Some people are just grumpy
We had a walker in the peaks take our photo and insist we were on a footpath and shouldn't be there (and was quite rude about it all). We told him that if he thought this was a footpath then he was clearly lost! (we had map to prove it) 🙂

On the otherhand we did Jacobs ladder route on Sunday and on the final section we waited for some walkers and they kindly told us thay were the last people for a bit and to go for it - nice people 😛

I just say hello to all the people I encounter and find 90% of they say hi back and we all get on with our days

Walkers have right of way. Fact.
Be polite to them regardless of how they might be to you. Try to avoid pissing the reasonable ones off. Some can't be helped.
If you don't want crowds don't ride around Ladybower on a sunny Sunday.
Use some common sense.
Enjoy the light nights - that's the time to mash-it-uuup.

Not so complicated. Ahh, common sense - complicated for some folk.

How dare they not know which side you intend to pass!

he doesn't care, he'd just like not to have to squeeze through the middle 🙁

Funny how the older posters and those who are also walkers/climbers seem to be the most empathetic.

hollow laughter in the case of distinctly middleaged [b]ozzo[/b] 🙂

Move to Scotland where walkers are in the minority and expect to be abused.

Move to Scotland

yeah but it's infested with Scottish people 🙁

In my experience a loud hub is much better than a bell. I've been in situations where I've rung the bell at walkers, only to have "get a bell" shouted at me as I ride past. On several occasions.

It got very annoying. For a while I actually started to suspected that humans were incapable of hearing the sound of a bike bell if it comes from behind them.

humans were incapable of hearing the sound of a bike bell if it comes from behind them

[b]FACT[/b]

i find that some walkers will deliberatley block you others will get out the way / talk to you etc i tend to slow down till they notice and then go past , i did nearly hit a women at firholmes who stepped out in front of me on the road some walkers do appear to be in a world of their own. I like to ride in the evening after about 4/5 get trails to myself just out interest can you ride all the way up to the top of win hill or from hope cross.

X2marple
i dont think people should dictate how and when people use the countryside within the confines if the law, i am a walker, climber and mtber and used to be a 4x4 (till someone nicked my landrover) in the peaks and should be allowed to use the countryside whenever i choose wearing what ever i want, should muslim women be asked to remove their vails when encountering walkers??? There are far more footpaths than bridleways, more bridleways than greenlanes yet the group that has the most access to the countryside and fought (literally) for their right to roam is the group that tries most to limit other peoples access to it.

Mass Ride up kinder on footpaths anyone?

Stonemonkey
You state “and should be allowed to use the countryside whenever i choose wearing what ever i want, should Muslim women be asked to remove their veils when encountering walkers???”

It was divisive & unfair of you to attempt to link my point of view with asking a Muslim woman wearing a veil to remove it when encountering walkers. The point I attempted to make was that many of us dress (including me with my reflective shades) in a manner that rightly or wrongly (like youths in hoodies) others can find threatening & that as my hat & glasses are worn for safety if I chose to stop to engage someone in conversation, be it about the weather, the scenery, the UK economy, or why I am on that particular trail, I just consider it friendly to remove my cycling hat & shades if the conversation develops into more than a few seconds.

My other point was to promote unity with other trail user’s not entrenched isolationism. Many riders I talk to & as you yourself state, pursue other outdoor pastimes like walking, climbing, canoeing, horse riding etc & there is a great commonality of interest, this needs to be exploited for the common good.

Neither did I put forward a view that you should not use the countryside whenever you choose. I put forward a point of view that riding at non-peak times (early morning/early evening) it is still possible to be one of a few on the trail not the many.

However, if I choose to ride out between 10.00hrs-17.00hrs I do recognize that on sunny weekends in spring & summer there will be many other trail users who want access to the same space as me & I tailor my riding style, route & route length accordingly.

You state “the group that has the most access to the countryside and fought (literally) for their right to roam is the group that tries most to limit other people’s access to it”
I agree with your sentiments. Without doubt bridleway use here on the west side of the Dark Peak, where I live, has increasing many fold particularly in the last decade, & usage conflicts will & do occur. However division & alienated from other user groups will make us vulnerable to the attempts of other parties who might seek to influence/lobby the National Park Body to apply specific legislate to restrict trail access within the boundaries of the National Park to cyclists.

Constructive debate & enlightenment remains the long game, but if more direct action was needed I would be there. Mass trespass has been done, how about a mass MTB ride on one of the Peak Districts A roads….

Keith T

[img] [/img]

Hi keith

my muslim women comment was unfair , it was a bt of a joke in response to all the "racist" threads on here recently. I agree that when the peak is busy we need to be careful, i am certainly not the type of rider who goes speeding up to walkers but i do get the feeling we are much more tolerant of them than they are of us.

Anyway thinking of heading up bleaklow / crowden way ive heard its much quieter up there so if anyone knows any good routes.

Might see you on the hills keith

Mike ( grey turner 5 spot)

IIRC you can't ride all the way to the top of Win Hill from Hope Cross, only about 2/3 of the way up.

yeah but it's infested with Scottish people

But some of us English are weaseling our way in, ripe for a take-over 🙂

TBH I rarely meet walkers on trails up here and when I do they seem happy to see me and me them. Only really noticed trail militia down on the pennines if I'm honest.

I have a ping bell on all my bikes and ring ring on my tourer!

I still have hte pi$$ taken out of me till we approach walkers.

I don't care, I'll still have my bell on my XTR kitted bike!