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I won't bother this year. I'll see how it looks next year now.
All this is great publicity for the series, everyone is talking about it 🙂 marketing genius!!!
Ukge definitely need to get a decent press release officer sorted
Thankfully the races and series itself are very slickly run and the courses brilliant, if Parr said everyone had to wear their pants outside their shorts to race it'd still sell out in minutes
With BC abandoning such an incredibly popular form of cycling someone has to step in and lay down some rules for a national series
(Mega)Avalanche cup races in France require you take insurance, does the trans savoi, Provence too?
If you don't like them (I don't either), don't enter the races(I won't be). The series will not do well and end. Someone else can start a national series and you can all be happy again.
Do the [i]SES/Tweedlove Series/Other English enduros i'm not aware of/Probably some welsh ones too[/i] instead, I can vouch for 2/4 as being top quality.
As for his 'Enduro British Champs' we have an EWS round here. If you win that, then i'll call you 'Enduro Champion' for the rest of the year.
Why would cover be different cost, are dobbers who are more likely to crash going to get charged more?
And I'm employed with a decent sick pay policy, bikes are insured including accidental damage, what do I need more than 3rd party liability for?
(Mega)Avalanche cup races in France require you take insurance
This is for helicopter evacuation* and medical treatment. Which are free at the point of delivery in the UK.
Just seems so arbitrary and half-baked. They need to give this a proper re-think IMO.
* Though the Frenchies didn't charge me for my helicopter ride at the Mega.
mrhoppy - Member
Why would cover be different cost, are dobbers who are more likely to crash going to get charged more?
For the same reason that every other type of insurance varies in cost e.g. age, medical issues, wheel size, etc
I'd hazard a guess most standard PA covers will exclude hazardous sports and will almost certainly exclude competitive sport
kimbers - Member
(Mega)Avalanche cup races in France require you take insurance, does the trans savoi, Provence too?
Quite possibly but in France you have to pay for recovery off the mountain so you are actually insuring something. You aren't insuring anything with UKGE.
And I'm employed with a decent sick pay policy, bikes are insured including accidental damage, what do I need more than 3rd party liability for?
My guess, to cover you against being sued by another rider when you crash into them during an overtake?
3rd party would not cover another entrant to the event, no? 3rd party is for spectators and other, well, 3rd parties?
. The series will not do well and end. Someone else can start a national series and you can all be happy again.
Really? Its incredibly popular, sells out in minutes for some rounds, hours for others, there's always a big waiting list
There's no other series that covers the whole of the uk and I can't see many people devoting pretty much every weekend to organising, track building, logistics etc the way Parr has
legend - Member
mrhoppy - Member
Why would cover be different cost, are dobbers who are more likely to crash going to get charged more?
For the same reason that every other type of insurance varies in cost e.g. age, medical issues, wheel size, etc
But how do those variables affect the likely risk being insured/that Mr Parr needs to be covered to allow him not to carry sufficient insurance against the series.
Just about every other sport event that needs cover I've done has allowed you to do fixed cost cover for a couple of quid.
My guess, to cover you against being sued by another rider when you crash into them during an overtake?
Nope, seems to be entirely about covering your own well-being in the event of an injury
My guess, to cover you against being sued by another rider when you crash into them during an overtake?
It's a pretty good example of a 3rd party claim, just like your 3rd party cover on a car.
Whilst it's got people talking about brand UKGE, it's not been achieved by marketing genius, quite the opposite in fact.
A prime example of the 'make it up as you go along' school of thought.
What a shambles. They literally have no way of policing this. Much like 90% of the Megavalanche 'doctors letters' knocked up on the printer at work on the Friday afternoon before people leave for the ferry.
They've said they'll clarify tomorrow
I think they may have to drop this one tbh
Its looking unenforceable to me
Shame as I think the sentiment is right, they want people to be insured and all covered to a certain standard, maybe should be just waited till they have their own federation set up
The main thing is, they seem to be failing to convince people on the benefits. For some folks, it probably is a great idea- if I was self employed I'd already have some form of income protection. But if you're in employment with sick pay etc, then the benefits are far smaller.
But instead of trying to make the case for, all I see is "It's not THAT expensive, you've already spent a fortune on your bike, what's an extra £100?", "It's for your sake!" and inevitably "The French do it". And of course "These are the rules, if you don't like it don't race". But you've got to show people why they should want it
Doesn't directly affect me- tbh I didn't dig the UKGE much, with its overcomplicated formula and bizarre course choices so with a crowded calendar and lots of better racing I didn't bother last year, and the fullface thing meant there's no chance of me doing it this year. And Steve's got the right to do what he wants with his series. But this stuff can have impacts on other organisers, if he manages to make fullface and insurance the industry standard then the ball's on the slates.
It's going to get to the point where soon it'll be too "dangerous" to get out of bed in the morning, and we'll just have to spend our lives, covered in our own excrement, fat as fast, shoving ready meals into our faces, till we die a miserable slow, painful death in a pool of our own gentle congealing vomit.......
Think i'd rather die falling off my bike thanks 😉
And what about just riding in the woods with my mates, do we now need insurance for that just in case we run over a daffodil or something?
More seriously, i wouldn't actually mind if we cold pay a sum to the club running the event, which they would use for insurance, and if they don't spend it all, at least some of the money goes back into the sport, rather than into the coffers of some faceless grey fronted insurance broker. And because "risk" is average, it doesn't matter that everyone would pay the same, the risk doesn't actually change on average. (not every rider in the event is going to be a city fat cat with a £1M yearly earning now are they)
I see Steve responding to a request for the level of insurance required with "contact Be Spoke". 😕
I am still confused by this.
I am self employed, if I crash and can't work will the £2 a week policy do what a many many £s a month policy won't and actually pay me.
If I crash and need medical attention will the £2 a week policy cover private medical costs.
If I crash and need medical attention will the £2 a week policy cover my NHS costs.... I think I am already paying for that.
If I hit another competitor or a spectator will the £2 a week policy compensate them, I thought the PL that is included in the entry fee covered that.
What will I be insuring myself against?
And what about just riding in the woods with my mates, do we now need insurance for that just in case we run over a daffodil or something?
I suspect, when you ring for your quote, that's exactly what they'll be trying to sell to you - annual cover for riding in the woods. Premium suitably bumped up due to your gnarlyness as you ride an enduro or two during the year.
It pongs. I'm sure it could be included in the (already pricey) entry fee.
Mbnut - MemberI am self employed, if I crash and can't work will the £2 a week policy do what a many many £s a month policy won't and actually pay me.
I suppose that's the real question... When I worked in the bank we had payment and income protection that we were supposed to sell to people. It was almost useless for permenently employed staff, and they refused to cover anyone else.
If you can find a good policy that'll cover you and benefit you then it's probably a good idea regardless of racing tbh, it won't take much of a claim to make it pay off. I think for a lot of people though it's only ever going to pay off if you suffer a lifechanging injury.
OK I think I've twigged what this is all about.
Read the PB interview and you'll see Parr makes several references to "the sue culture" of the UK.
We're all struggling to understand what benefit this has for us, but that's because it's actually for the organisers' benefit - so we [i]hopefully[/i] don't sue them if we end up in a wheelchair.
Perhaps they were unable to get insurance which they feel adequately covers them for the risk they feel they are taking? Anyway, this solution is still clumsy, misguided and wasteful IMO.
Having insurance doesn't stop people suing race organisers. But also, what about the risk of insurers suing instead?
Note I used the word "misguided".
If they can't get insurance the race won't go on.
Other enduros will follow.
Suddenly, no enduro.
The only way is for participants to have the adequate cover.
I see no issue with that whatsoever.
iolo, but as mentioned before what is adequate cover. And for who?
There are a lot of questions being raised and the organisers need to answer these clearly. You cant run an event and enforce insurance and then be very very vague on what that insurance needs to cover and to what amount.
I reckon it went something like this;
"'ere, this sue culture is terrible. It's gettin jus' like 'merica."
"what if someone gets 'urt at our race?"
"Oh shit, we could get sued and BC aren't interested so..."
"Lets make 'em get insurance"
"GREAT IDEA! Put it on facebook"
"Job jobbed"
*open more beers*
Considering the lack of direction, I can't imagine that the thought process went much further than that.
The organisers already have their own insurance against people suing them.
Introducing insurance will almost certainly increase the chance of an insurance company making a claim against another insurance company.
In life, you have to make sure you can cover your debts etc and live if an accident does happen an you cannot work. I cannot see how forcing you to take this extra insurance is really helping you other than making you give money to yet another company.
iolo - MemberIf they can't get insurance the race won't go on.
Other enduros will follow.
Suddenly, no enduro.
The only way is for participants to have the adequate cover.
That's a massive leap. Especially since other race organisers still seem to be able to run races without these rules. Do you have some insider knowledge leading you to say this is the only way and is required to keep the races going? (because publically, the race organisers aren't saying this)
Might be worth clarifying- according to the organisers this is additional cover to previous years, it's not racers being asked to pay personally for something that used to be provided by UKGE.
There's a slight difference in that BC race licences will no longer provide cover but most people probably didn't have that cover anyway.
Sounds a bit like when I used to race Motocross 8 years ago, you bought a Personal Insurance cover or 'License' through the governing body (AMCA) at varying cost and levels of cover for death and disability and then paid for the third party insurance every time you entered a race in the race fee. On top of this an insurance company used to come around the paddock selling you optional personal accident insurance, which we all bought of course, as we always ended up in Hospital and could make a claim. More important if you were self employed.
Still, don't think I'll bother entering UKGE, I'll just stick to PMBA instead!
Spoke to them for a quote- slightly confusing, but for a 52 year old non smoker househusband (only questions I was asked) cover was offered for £8 and £16 per month. Benefits basically cover death/disability, broken bones- no mention of income protection, but not applicable for me anyway. Death/disablement pays out £10.5k/21k, broken leg £2/4k, ribs/collarbone £600/1200.
And what about the logistics...?
SP states you must evidence your insurance when you enter. What happens for all the people that buy their insurance upfront then find their race(s) is sold out?? Presumably they're left with a years worth of insurance they don't want/need?
You could just buy some insurance from dogtag or whatever for the week like you do when you go to the alps etc?
@p7rich, this won't help in all cases but I'd assume sports insurance is covered by the normal 14 day cooloff period- so you could arrange your cover, try and book your race, then if it falls through cancel. Obviously only works the first time you book for the year, though, so if you're trying to book race by race it won't really help.
I reckon it went something like this;
"'ere, this sue culture is terrible. It's gettin jus' like 'merica."
"what if someone gets 'urt at our race?"
"Oh shit, we could get sued and BC aren't interested so..."
"Lets make 'em get insurance"
"GREAT IDEA! Put it on facebook"
"Job jobbed"
*open more beers*Considering the lack of direction, I can't imagine that the thought process went much further than that.
I've enjoyed the UKGE races I've entered and respect the work that's gone into them, so I was trying to be tactful.
But...
@p7rich, this won't help in all cases but I'd assume sports insurance is covered by the normal 14 day cooloff period- so you could arrange your cover, try and book your race, then if it falls through cancel. Obviously only works the first time you book for the year, though, so if you're trying to book race by race it won't really help.
Or if you were particulary cute, buy the policy pre entry, copy cert, cancel insurance & carry on as normal & present 'fake' certificate at point of signon.
The sensible thing to do now would be to put the plan into the stupid ideas box.
Particulary enjoying the default response of please contact our preferred supplier, and we can't tell you why we insist this silly rule to be in place, but cough up anyway, otherwise you can't race.
At least with the FF discussion they could half justify it based on safety. What i do with own personal insurance and financial situation has nothing to do with whether I want to race or not.
Still, they have done a great job of reducing potential entries next year. Of the 12 of my regular riding group who have done multiple UKGE races last year, none of us will now bother.
If nobody can give details on what insurance is required why not get a quote from their (ukge) preferred insurer.
Ask for what exactly you will be covered for.
Get this in their quote.
Use this quote as a basis for shopping around other insurance companies.
If that's too much bother, there's always other series for you.
I think this is a good year to sit the UKGE out for me! New baby is the real reason I'm not committing to racing but in the face of all this lot I'm not sure I'd bother anyway!
Anyway, I'm guessing the timing of BC's decision to not support Enduro has caused some ripples of panic and Steve Parr and the team have had to come up with something to make sure everything's adequetely covered very quickly which hasn't necessarily been researched as much as it should. Delays in sorting something out could've had a greater impact on the series for instance at worst cas not being able to run events etc.
I don't doubt as they learn things will settle down. Without a governing body to oversee the sport then there's a certain amount of trial and error involved to find the best solution.
Fair play to Steve for putting his cock on the block and trying to do something.
As a side note, did anyone get appraoched by those two insurance sales goons at the Afan round last year?
Ok so I understand racers having liability insurance but surely the rest should be up to individuals?
Iolo, do we even if that's the minimum cover?
Steve responded to a post on facebook;
Steve Parr: Rob, yeah covering your mugshot will be pretty expensive
Andy, if you contact Be spoke they will run through it all with you, their basic cover is spot on for Us.
So if someone can find out what 'basic' is then we have an answer. However given other insurance companies will have different t&c how is the man-on-the-street is supposed to determine if two policies are the same!?
As i see it youll only need cover for the event your doing, so you could buy it just before you enter and cancel after (assuming you dont claim). Bit of a mess by UKGE tho, even on FB the UKGE staff dont seem to know what is required or what another staff member has said.
I think Steve wants to set up an enduro federation , now that BC have pulled out
the stuff that theyve done with the enduro youth felowship thing is really cool
he asked all the other enduro organisers at a meeting (im picturing something out of the godfather here)
and i think that people agreed with the idea in principle
I think in steves vision that includes some sort of insurance ala motocross racing, but the other organisers not so sure
vinnyeh - Member
Spoke to them for a quote- slightly confusing, but for a 52 year old non smoker househusband (only questions I was asked) cover was offered for £8 and £16 per month. Benefits basically cover death/disability, broken bones- no mention of income protection, but not applicable for me anyway. Death/disablement pays out £10.5k/21k, broken leg £2/4k, ribs/collarbone £600/1200.
I'm sure that's great and all that, but how does this actually help me or my family?
If i'm dead, i don't think they are exactly going to be over the moon with £10.5k, and considering a broken leg would probably prevent me working for say at least 3 months £2k is pretty lame......
reward<risk, imo.......
If that's too much bother, there's always other series for you.
For most amateur racers it will be far too much bother and expense. They've implemented a rule, but they're completely unable to tell you the details of this rule other than to contact their recommended broker for a quote. They will also be getting a % commission for every policy sold through their recommended broker...