[Closed] i pay road tax, a good answer

A little subtle for the transit driving, caravan towing scumbag that tried to drive me off the road a few weeks ago while his scumbag mates in the forecourt fresh Insignia expressed their 'taxing' concerns from the car window, I'm sure they were all honest tax payers of course though!

Pretty sure if they get close enough to see the joke they'll be more interested in trying to give you a beating.

No one pays road tax any more, as the government changed it to Vehicle excise duty, so its flawed from the start. We all have the same right to use the roads, people pay to use their vehicle. But the average joe, is completely clueless to this.

Pretty steep price for a bolt and a piece of printed alloy.

I like how it says £0.00 but really cost £25!

Don't forget, 20% of that price is tax.

😀

I think I'd rather just have a plain black one. They look a bit shti and how many people will actually see it? And...HOW MUCH for an alloy washer?

No one pays road tax any more, as the government changed it to Vehicle excise duty, so its flawed from the start. We all have the same right to use the roads, people pay to use their vehicle. But the average joe, is completely clueless to this.

Had this discussion with a guy at work last week.
As my road car has emissions below 99g/KM co2 my vehicle excise duty for the year is £0 for 12 months so should I not drive my car on the road??????

road tax was never a tax to allow access to the roads, but to contribute to the cost of maintianing, expanding and improving the road network. On the basis a bike will cause little or no damage to the road network then why should any cyclist pay road tax? It'd be like saying you can't cross the road as a pedestrian unless you've paid road tax. Its a nonsense of an argument - and the majority of us are also car owners too so pay road tax and an extortionate amount of tax on fuel as well as VAT on all the car parts, car repairs and maintenance, so the government is getting more than thier fair share of tax from us motorists. Also when you're on your bike using the road network and not contributing to the damage, wear and tear on the road, you're not driving your car, so the government is getting that particualr journey for free.

majority of us are also car owners too so pay road tax

No we don't.

At £25 a pop I know who the joke's on

If I drive my car on the pavement, does that mean I don't have to pay road tax?

😉

Honestly, people call it road tax, we know it's not - we on this forum are generally not of the un-enlightened view!

Yes it's commonly known as Road Tax but with some education that can be changed, this will hopefully stop people thinking we pay it for the damage vehicles do to roads.

My stock answer is, I own a van, 3 motorbikes, and on my way to work, to get into a 26t truck. Therefore I pay more ved than you, and have more right to be on the road, so **** off....

the majority of us are also car owners too so pay road tax

No, you don't. As others have said, the "road tax" - ie, the contribution to road maintenance etc - was abolished in 1937. Roads are paid for out of general taxation.

The current tax disc is, at least in theory, supposed to be a tax against vehicle emissions, and is priced accordingly. Based on that, if cyclists had to buy a tax disc, it'd probably be a few pence to offset last night's curry and six pints of Awld Galloping Knobrot.

Like I said in my rapidly deleted post, a Stem top Cap is far too subtle, to make a statement that sticks in the 5 seconds Max you are going to get to respond to a motorist a clear, simple statement printed on a T-shirt / Jersey is about your only option, obviously not with any Swears, lest we offend the thinner skinned members of society...

Self infliced £25 bike tax??
My Mrs car tax is cheaper than that!

Lets just do it. Pay that is. Per bike.

I for one will pay VED for my bike at the going rate for a (virtually) zero emissions vehicle.

I don't think it's going to cost much (£0.00 I suspect) and if it stops this daft discussion so much the better.

And if it was linked to registering some distinguishing marks on the bike with the DVLA at Swansea then that might make bikes less nickable.

No one pays road tax any more, as the government changed it to Vehicle excise duty, so its flawed from the start.

Incorrect. The TAX is only payable on vehicles that use the ROAD, hence the very accurate colloquialism of Road Tax. You buy a car and use it off road only (racing, rallying, etc.) the tax does not apply regardless of emissions.

The second banal argument is that Road tax isn't spent on roads. You don't say. News flash: 'Tobacco Tax' isn't spent on tobacco, and 'Alcohol Tax' isn't spent on alcohol.

It's Road Tax, that some vehicles must pay to use our roads.

I see this "I pay at the relevant rate for my emissions (£0)" thing quite a lot on here and pretty much every cycling forum, below-the-article newspaper comment horror show, and elsewhere and it seems pretty short sighted to me.

All very well to say "give me the disc" when VED for zero emissions is £0, but do you think it will always be thus?

The differential between petrol and LPG duty used to make LPG even more attractive than now, because the government wanted to encourage it (LPG use) a while back as a "green"(ish) solution, but it never really took off and the long term intent seems to be to not maintain the advantage, certainly not to extend it.

So what happens in a few years when zero emissions vehicles are commonplace and the government can't afford, or doesn't want to, continue at zero and charges something, still lower but something, for zero emissions vehicles?

Where's the cyclists' argument gone?

If you crow about "I pay the appropriate tax for the emissions on my vehicle" are you gonna be happy to bimble down the post office for a disc for your bike when the "appropriate" rate for a "zero emissions vehicle" is £20? £50?

No, we don't not buy a disc (for £0 or for any amount) because our emissions are zero, but because we don't need the man's permission to ride our bikes on the roads. The day you put a disc (even a free one) on your bike you give that freedom away.

they will never take our [b]FREEDOM!!![/b]

It's Road Tax, that some vehicles must pay to use our roads.

The problem being that people (OK, idiots) then use that argument to go one step further and assume that they've paid to use the road, cyclists haven't therefore cyclists have no rights.

Calling it by it's correct name of Vehicle Excise Duty dispels that one straight away. It's a seemingly petty distinction but actually very important - see the below paragraph from http://ipayroadtax.com

[i]The distinction between ‘road tax’ and VED is very important, much more important than most people think. It’s possible that lives have been lost because of the use of an antique phrase. Some motorists believe ‘road tax’ pays for roads so cyclists, as freeloaders at best, tax-dodgers at worst, shouldn’t really be on “their” roads at all. This sometimes leads to ugly and dangerous aggression against cyclists, with some motorists taking the ownership of the roads fallacy a little too literally.[/i]

There's a video on there too of a cyclist being shoved off the road while the occupants of the car shout that as he's not paid "road tax" he's not entitled to ride on "their" road.

Not wanting to prolong the agony of this discussion, but as I mentioned earlier it is not only zero emission vehicles that qualify for a VED of £0 its vehicles below 100g/KM of CO2.
So my 1.6 TDI Seat Leon drops nicely into that and £0 is what I'm charged for my VED disc each year.

the occupants of the car shout that as he's not paid "road tax" he's not entitled to ride on "their" road.

It's retarded anyway; even if the road warriors were right and VED was some sort of payment for using the roads, how many road cyclists also own motor vehicles and thus are paying "road tax" anyway? I'd wager it's as close to "all of them" as makes no odds for statistical purposes.

Where's the cyclists' argument gone?

Same place as the:
[list][*]Classic car
[/*][*]Horse[/*][*]Pedestrian[/*][*]Cart[/*][/list]

I should think.

So if drivers have right of way over me when I'm on my bike as I don't pay tax for it do I get right of way over tham when I'm in the van? I guess the tax for that is higher than the majority of cars so I would be well up the pecking order.
Can I use that as an excuse and drive like a proper white-van-man?

Incorrect. The TAX is only payable on vehicles that use the ROAD, hence the very accurate colloquialism of Road Tax. You buy a car and use it off road only (racing, rallying, etc.) the tax does not apply regardless of emissions.

This is true. However, the problem lies in that calling it "road tax" perpetuates the widely held belief that it pays for the roads, and thus fuels some motorists' anger that cyclists are freeloading.

The second banal argument is that Road tax isn't spent on roads. You don't say. News flash: 'Tobacco Tax' isn't spent on tobacco, and 'Alcohol Tax' isn't spent on alcohol.

And as above, if everyone knew this then it wouldn't be an issue. You say "newsflash" like it's obvious, but to a lot of people it isn't.

It's Road Tax, that some vehicles must pay to use our roads.

Alternatively, it's a Motor Vehicle Tax, graded on emissions, that all motor vehicle drivers must pay to use their vehicles in certain circumstances. (Yes, it's free for some vehicles, but they still have to display a disc.)

The TAX is only payable on vehicles that use the ROAD

Incorrect, VED allows you to KEEP the vehicle on the public highway. To USE it one must be licensed, ergo a 16 year old may own and keep a vehicle on the road to gain No Claims Bonus but he would be unable to use it as he has no licence.

ergo a 16 year old may own and keep a vehicle on the road to gain No Claims Bonus but he would be unable to use it as he has no licence.

Yeah I can imagine that happening 😐

Q - how many years have you held your license
A - minus errrr ...... some ? Not sure yet as I'm only 16 and I don't even have a provisional.

"That will be £1000,000.00 per year please, pay in full or direct debit sir ?"

Lets just do it. Pay that is. Per bike.

I for one will pay VED for my bike at the going rate for a (virtually) zero emissions vehicle.

I don't think it's going to cost much (£0.00 I suspect) and if it stops this daft discussion so much the better.

And if it was linked to registering some distinguishing marks on the bike with the DVLA at Swansea then that might make bikes less nickable.

I have thought the same before only We would actually be making things worse, £0.00 income but the cost of administration etc basically means a "tax" disc for a bike takes funding away from other areas of spending...

Moreover if the scale on motor vehicles rates a Prius or the like at zero, should bikes being substantially cleaner not actually earn their owners a small rebate?

Cougar - my argument is still valid then - if the road tax is a tax on vehicle emissions then for a bike it should be zero as bikes don't emit emissions. The person on the bike might, but they are not the vehicle. Horses are a different matter by this analysis though - and pedestrians crossing the road who are both the vehicle and the occupant. Ultimately road tax is not a permit to use the road, but a tax for some other purpose. Access to the road is effectively Free of charge for all vehicles - until toll roads come in.

But if the road tax as a contribution to road maintenance was abolished in 1937 and tax based upon emissions was only introduced relatively recently, then what was it intended to be for the 50 or 60 years in between? A bit of an academic point anyway as very little tax from any source seems to be ploughed back into road maintenance, let alone improvement and network expansion.

I would suggest that as an argument to anti-cyclist people, you spend more time pointing out that every bike, is one less car. It's one less car in a traffic jam, it's one less car producing smoke, one less car taking up a parking space and one less car driving over people.

[img] [/img]

It comes out every time this argument/discussion is spouted...!!

DrP

wobbliscott - Member

if the road tax is a tax on vehicle emissions then for a bike it should be zero as bikes don't emit emissions. The person on the bike might, but they are not the vehicle.

The rider of a pushbike is definitely and unequivocally zero emission; the carbon exhaled by respiration already existed in the biosphere.

And indeed, everyone driving a car breathes as well.

I've had that discussion with someone at work and they said a cyclist emits more CO2 than an electric car.

As well as explaining why that was rubbish I told them I probably breathe slower when I'm going for it on the bike than they do when they're sitting still 😆

if the road tax as a contribution to road maintenance was abolished in 1937 and tax based upon emissions was only introduced relatively recently, then what was it intended to be for the 50 or 60 years in between?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Excise_Duty

The Finance Act 1920 introduced a 'Duty on licences for mechanically propelled vehicles' which was to be hypothecated and paid into a newly established Road Fund. Excise duties specifically for mechanically propelled vehicles were first imposed in 1921, along with the requirement to display a vehicle licence (tax disc) on the vehicle.
...
Hypothecation came to an end in 1937 under the 1936 Finance Act, and the proceeds of the vehicle road taxes were paid directly into the Exchequer.
...
In March 2005, a graduated vehicle excise duty system, with tax bands based on CO2 ratings, was introduced as an incentive to purchase vehicles with lower emission ratings.

TL;DR version; it's inland tax. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_duty

Incorrect. The TAX is only payable on vehicles that use the ROAD, hence the very accurate colloquialism of Road Tax. You buy a car and use it off road only (racing, rallying, etc.) the tax does not apply regardless of emissions.

The TAX is only payable on vehicles that use the ROAD, hence the very accurate colloquialism of Road Tax. You buy a car and use it off road only (racing, rallying, etc.) the tax does not apply regardless of emissions.

Same old tired argument.

I can brew my own beer and drink it "off road" without paying Alcohol Duty.
So by your logic it clearly isn't Alcohol Duty and it would be more accurate to call it "Pub and Off-License Tax"?

The larger point is that the Road Tax colloquialism stems from the Road Fund and gives motorists the entirely false sense that they have extra rights to the road because they "have paid for it" and cyclists haven't - which is complete bollocks.

Calling it by it's correct name of Vehicle Excise Duty dispels that one straight away.

I'm not even sure they call it Vehicle Excise Duty any more. The gov.uk and Post Office websites now always seem to call it "Vehicle Tax" or "Car Tax".

I've had that discussion with someone at work and they said a cyclist emits more CO2 than an electric car.

🙄

Hope you explained the difference between taking part in the existing carbon cycle (by breathing) versus releasing new carbon into the cycle (by burning fossil fuels).

Or just slapped them. That would work too.

samuri - Member
I would suggest that as an argument to anti-cyclist people, you spend more time pointing out that every bike, is one less car. It's one less car in a traffic jam, it's one less car producing smoke, one less car taking up a parking space and one less car driving over people.

What I would like to know is how much it costs DVLA to issue all these £0.00 tax disc's on the lowest emission vehicles?

I can't cite a source for this, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the admin overheads in printing and issuing a tax disc was about £15.

Yeah I can imagine that happening

Q - how many years have you held your license
A - minus errrr ...... some ? Not sure yet as I'm only 16 and I don't even have a provisional.

"That will be £1000,000.00 per year please, pay in full or direct debit sir ?"

But wait.. what's my annual mileage you say? 0? Ok then that'll be... £0. Direct debit?

What I would like to know is how much it costs DVLA to issue all these £0.00 tax disc's on the lowest emission vehicles?

It's not justr low emission vehicles - emergency services vehicles, vehicles owned by a disabled person, cars older than 1973, agriculural vehicles...

The below from http://ipayroadtax.com <:

[i]Let’s keep it simple and say the cost to print, distribute and sell each VED disc is a quid. There are about 2 million vehicles which don’t pay VED. That’s two million quid of subsidy to get tax discs to those who don’t pay for them. Those motorists who want cyclists to “pay road tax” need to realise that bicycles, as non-polluting vehicles, would be classified as Band A vehicles and hence would have to pay nowt. With 25 million bicycles in ownership, that would be £25m to get each bicycle a valid tax disc.[/i]

There's the other costs of things like selling a bike on (and changing the name on the "tax disc") and the fact that bikes can be so easily stripped and split.

Utterly totally unworkable in so many ways.

Problem is you can't really shout that back at some **** who's just yelled "pay yer road tx!" as he overtakes at 30mph. Need a swift yet witty response in its place... The swear filter will probably remove any ideas I put forward here.

hate this argument, there is no such thing as "road tax" in the uk, the tax is a levy on vehicle emissions.

But wait.. what's my annual mileage you say? 0? Ok then that'll be... £0. Direct debit?

And that's even less likely to happen

Have you actually ever dealt with an insurance company ??? 😉

They would charge an absolute FORTUNE for that cover, if anyone was ever stupid enough to ask for it.
(If they would even do it at all)

That costs more than the VED I pay on my car.

What would happen if you were run off the road by a Streetview car or an Amazon delivery?

Slightly OT but one of the secondary functions of ved was presumably to capture insurance and mot evaders before the dvla had electronic control of these matters through the mid and electronic mot data.

With those in place i wonder if its time to abolish ved and capture the lost tax at the pumps.

That way the biggest polluters pay and it becomes a tax on emissions.

Mot centres and insurers could then issue an annual window sticker each so that the mot and insurance dodgers can be picked up by traffic wardens etc like they currently do off tax discs.

omg what a set of pedantic ****ers