Why do people think that certain production run frames are built in Taiwan purely for money reasons? Could it not be that the expertise is there, and not in the UK now?
Because the engineering workshop we used to send anything more taxing than weliding cabinets together charged arround £1 per mm of weld depending on thickness/meterial.
When O-O can sell a frame for £125, and it costs us that much to weld two bits of water pipe together, I'd know where an accountant would get his frames made.
the price difference might not be so much
Trade with the far-east is usually in USD and the pound against this currency has been relatively stable.
HTTP404 has missed StMCGroos point completely
My point is even if you could build and produce a frame in the UK [i]economically[/i] - could you do it [i]competitively[/i]? Two completely different things.
And what would be the [i]raison d'etre [/i]for this frame? Hence my quip about the sticker on the tube.
Convince me.
unfortunately this thread has now gone sour, the whole point was to determine whether or not a frame of comparable quality to the best coming from the far east could be produced in the uk for the same price.
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
to double reiterate... not of lesser quality and not for a premium price.
shall i reiterate again?
oh, http404, i struggling to find the point you made about economically and competitively, where is that exactly.
also, please understand there is a difference between patriotism and racism and please do not imply that i am racist.
The answer is "no". There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
Stu McGroo - Memberunfortunately this thread has now gone sour, the whole point was to determine whether or not a frame of comparable quality to the best coming from the far east could be produced in the uk for the same price.
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
to double reiterate... not of lesser quality and not for a premium price.
shall i reiterate again?
+1
[i]Hence my quip about the sticker on the tube.[/i]
It's in there somewhere.
The answer is "no". There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
mike - can you reiterate that again? 🙂
mike-at-dialledbikes -
.....There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
i know there are currently no companies doing such a thing, what norton is asking is that with the changing economies is there now a possibility to start such a company?
As a matter of interest roughly how many units do Brant/Mike/Sam/et al shift each per annum?
Stu, anything is possible with sufficient start up capital. But if you're trying to compete with overseas manufacturing, it's almost impossible to compete on labour costs because those will always be lower in emerging/developing markets than they are over here.
The UK govt sold the British manufacturing industry down the river a long time ago in favour of "making money" rather than "making things". But that's a whole different thread .......
Simple economics, the concept of free money (cash one the floor)
Two economist walking down a busy street, they notice a £50 note on the floor, the one ahead bends down to pick it up, and hurts his back in the process. The other econimist says there can't be £50 on the floor because if there was someone else would have picked it up.
For what seemed like easy money (£50 on the floor, £250,000pa to make bike frames in your garrage) he now has to pay a chirporactor £50 to sort his back out. The idea is that there is never such a thing as free money, if there was brant/mike/sam etc would have picked it up off the floor before you even got there.
So yes you could build bikes in this country, but don't expect any free money, the market is probably very small (STW'ers are more niche than average, and theres still under 100 replies, and people arent paying £500 to reply), and the profit margin even smaller.
mike-at-dialledbikes - Member
In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.I blame ridiculous footballers wages, WAGs and reality TV for turning this nation's minds to mush and for turning the youth into a nation of wannabe celebs instead of thinkers/grafters
Well said.
+1 for the above
I am a welder/fabricator, and could earn more elsewhere, but I am burdened with a passion for engineering 😐
I would LOVE to make bikes, and will have a go sometime, but need to do some more research first.
We have the skills in the UK, but in my experience we are poor at small production efficiency.
Thinking a little differently, would there be a market for a British made frame in other countries?
Kempfab, send me an email address in profile. 8)
Thinking a little differently, would there be a market for a British made frame in other countries?
I think On-One was exported to the Netherlands for a while, but am not certain how successfull that was.
Mike, this comment:
[i]it's almost impossible to compete on labour costs because those will always be lower in emerging/developing markets than they are over here.[/i]
and this comment:
[i]The UK govt sold the British manufacturing industry down the river a long time ago[/i]
Can't really go together. Either the Govt has done nothing to support British manufacturing jobs, (and the only way it could do that against low paid overseas workers would be to either keep UK prices artificially high, or suppress wages, neither would be popular)or it believes in the Free Market, and tries to build an economy that doesn't rely on making things. Look at Germany's struggle with the downturn.
This is global economics at its most basic, it is better, cheaper, easier to have these sorts of frames made in countries that have a manufacturing base capable of doing it. Try to start in the UK, you'd never get back your investment on set-up, or the frames would be too expensive if you did it through an existing company. So, in answer to the OP. No it isn't.
NickC, you can have that one. Far too heavy and boring a subject and too early in the morning to argue the toss about.
I think we agree on your final paragraph.
Let's take a step back here...you need to market a product that has a competitive advantage. In other words it is superior in a way the consumer recognises. There are lots of reynolds british built bikes/frames already on the market, why would anyone buy yours?
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
and the answer has been no all along.
Curtis are the closest case you could look at, they could have built their off the peg bikes in the UK. But they don't, they're made in the far east. If they could have built them in house for less than the cost of building them abroad they would have done.
Or to look at it another way, Dialled 853, cotic Soul, Thorn raven, etc all 853 (in places), all UK designed, all tiawan built (I think, certainly far east), all £380 (give or take a bit). Now if one of those manufactueres was making sufficient profit to be in a postion to cut prices, they would do. Otherwise (assuming they are all have the same costs and therefore making the same profits) one of the others would. Its back to the cash on the table, there is no cash on the table, becasue someone else would have taken it. Unless you'r suggesting that they are colluding and price fixing?
If you still don't believe the answer your getting, by all means draw up a business plan, go to the bank, hire a lockup, buy equipment, hire a welder, a machinist and a marketing guru and prove us all wrong.
could try to artificially peg the currency lower, thereby artificially inducing a competitive advantage?
[Mike at Dialled] In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.
There are also plenty of people who'd be glad of the work. They'd still be dearer than doing it in Taiwan.
To me the obvious reason why we don't have a "thriving" manufacturing sector is that we have relatively expensive labour, so everything that can be mechanised has been. As an example, there are far fewer steelworkers in Sheffield than there were in the 70s or 80s, but more steel is produced.
To put it another way, welding things together isn't a good way of making a living in a country like the UK - once you've got the line set up, and the welder on the right settings, almost anyone can be trained to do it repeatedly. On the other hand, Brant's mate needs to be able to weld to make a living, but he also needs to understand the MSA rule book, a bit of physics and engineering, a few things about vehicle dynamics and be a skilled fabricator in order to make a decent roll cage.
The manufacturing that is most succesful in the UK is high-tech, high-value, low-volume stuff, and I can't see that changing for a while.
By no means identical frames I know, but this is one of the interesting comparisons that started me wondering if a UK build is viable:
[url= http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=45 ]£380[/url]
[url= http://www.singularcycles.com/peregrine.html ]£540[/url]
yes and before anyone says it I'd probably have the Singular too, but I'm talking economics, not personal taste.
Apples and Oranges.
couldn't agree more Brant - one is built from Reynolds 631 in the UK and one isn't...
You have much to learn.
I'm just adding a point before I have got through all of the thread. I just want to make a point about market price.
We have On-One steel frames at around the £150 mark, Blue Pig at the ~£250 mark, Kinesis Versa at £330ish, then Cotic Soul & Orange P7 at the £500 region. As I mentioned in an early post I had a quote from Rourke in the summer for a 625 (I think) at about £650 in a single solid colour with contrast panels.
So your UK fabricated frame has surely got to be saleable at less than that £650? Otherwise the only advantage is that you can buy the frame for immediate delivery with a pre-determined colour and fittings. Otherwise you are going to be too close to bespoke builders which will have the -ve of building time but the advantage of exact fittings you ask for and colours that you pick.
My feeling, and it is just assumptions and feelings is, that you will need to be at no more than a Soul in a decent steel. Maybe would not have to be 825 as the UK fab may be enough to sell an "inferior" steel at the same price.
In the very early days of Orange didn't they have the Clockwork that was outsourced and the Formula that was built by a bespoke UK builder?
As for the talk of costs of tools, jigs etc. That was why I agreed that a non-cycle industry steel fabricator may be the way to go. They will have a lot of common tooling and workforce with skills and capacity to produce the frames. If it's a one-man band I really don't think that you would be able to keep the price low.
One of the companies that I used when I was working is Watermark in Derby. They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
I'll elaborate. The BJ frame is a really simple build for them. Not a low skilled thing, but fast and not hard for them to do. Skilled builders make for quick clean up on lugged builds like that. It uses simple lugs, readily available.
Sam's build really is quite different. Small batch. It's got an EBB. Disc mounts. Two tone paint. It includes carriage. Really funky lugs - see Sam has modern 1.125in steerer - that's hard to find and not cheap! Those will be cast lugs too, not cheaper pressed ones (I presume the BJ uses those).
I got offered an apprenticeship by Mr Jackson when I was 16, but I turned it down to take my A Levels. I wonder how it would have all panned out?
They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
Really, please, don't underestimate the complexities of jigging, fabricating and aligning a bicycle frame to acceptable tolerances.
I aren't Brant but they built machines for us that used a fair number of parts and on some of them as there were motorised moving parts they needed to be able to get alignment good and with good tolerances. I wasn't trying to say that this particular company could fab bike frames, and as I said there is a good chance they they wouldn't want to as well. But IME (which isn't massive by any means) there still are a number of SME fabricators in the UK, they do have good skills and may be able to do the job.
If you could get some proper CAD drawings done you could try ringing round and trying to get quotes for 20/50/100 off frames. If you could specify tubes to use and maybe any parts (BB,Head tube, cable guides/stops etc).
If I was serious about doing this I'd probably get some UK bespoke frames made up as prototypes to get the ride feel right. One at a time so that I could get the ride feel right with each iteration. Maybe lend one to STW or someone similar, friends etc to get their opinion. Once I was happy with a frame design I'd get it drawn up and then go out for tenders.
So at the end of the day you could lose 2 or 3 grand just prototyping and when and if you get quotes back find that it is economically not viable.
For me it'd definitely be a post lottery win project. Too much in debt and too cowardly otherwise.
so you can buy an off-the-peg, brazed and lugged road frame, built in leeds for £380 from bob jackson.
1. what's the quality of a bob jackson frame like?
2. does bob jackson have the ability and technical knowledge to produce a welded mtb frame?
3. if the answers to 1 & 2 are favouirable, how much would they charge?
EDIT; looking at the bob jackson website it all seems to be road bikes, so they either consider mtb to be the devils own work or the answer to question 2 is no.
EDIT2; or they don't see a market for uk built mtb frames!
or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
[url= http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/acatalog/The_Lincolnshire_Poacher.html ]Lincolnshire Poacher?[/url]
£245 without fork
although that has fancier lugs I think.
or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
Lincolnshire Poacher?£245 without fork
although that has fancier lugs I think.
What he said ------^
Although as Brant said, not all luggs are created equal. And Fixie-inc (IIRC) are knocking out welded and painted 953 frames for £1000, and I don't remember them being made in the UK! Which I guess proves that brand/material kudous can be worth more than the frame!
[dribbling]
Mercian in Derby make dribble worthy XC bikes, If I won the lottery I'd get one (well, probably several) made up in subtle variations of the Paul Smith colours [/dribbling]
So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
thisisnotaspoon - So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
ditto
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
To say that a UK company can't compete with the far-east in manufacturing is nonsense. HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
Start-up is great. A sustainable business model is even better.
I think you'll find production overheads per unit relatively high.
Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
Sorry Brant I forgot that all that Hope do is have an un-skilled ludite throw a lump of aluminium into a cheap-as-chips CNC machine and out pops a complete disc brake, headset, wheelset. Each component fully built complete with all carbon, rubber and steel parts fitted ready to go. It must look like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory at Hope.
cy - just out of interest, when you were trying to find a UK manufacturer how many frames were you asking them to build compared to how many frames you sell per year now?
Jim - i think he means (and rightly so) that you can't really compare Hope with Shimano or SRAM, different production techniques and approaches and business model.
Make sense?
C CNC machine is a CNC machine wherever it is in the world it will cost near enough the same.
R&D costs the same wherever you build the frame (bacause it will be in the UK)
The only think hope have to pay more in yorkshire than in tiawan is labour, and I'm guessing the average employee can make up quite a few brakes/hubs/headsets per hour, even bleeding takes a matter of seconds with the right kit (a vacumn hose). So as aproportion of their costs, its probably minimal.
Welding a frame takes much longer, and much more skill, and therefore costs more.
Are Pace frames made in the UK and are they more expensive than similar Tiawanese made frames?