[Closed] How Much Does Price Matching Hurt The LBS?

No loyalty when it comes to 900 quid.

Tbh I prefer buying from a LBS myself, but if it comes to it and it's cheaper else where, well tough titty really.

If you feel loyalty to the LBS ask them to price match, I wouldn't feel guilty about going elsewhere though, least you gave them the chance to make some profit, up to them if they want to take it/feel it's worth it.

duplicate.

This is simple, be resonable ask them to price match, if they can't go else where assuming your deposit isn't bigger than 900 quid.

Not a moral dilema at all, you're not being underhand and you don't owe anyone a living. Not sure why some people treat bike shops as a charity?

This is true, if you walk away leaving your deposit (which is what I think you're suggesting)

Zulu: Your model model of Capitalism is of course how the western world operates, and I suppose has proved more sucessful than alternative models. The architypal sucessful free market economy was of course Ancient Rome with its social mobility etc...the only teeny, weeny problem was that the folk at the bottom who did most of the work didn't actually get paid at all. Is this not where unfettered capitalism leads to as a logical conclusion? Surely like any other model it can't work in isolation?
I try and support my LBS..only that now that the manager of my local shop has admitted to eating at Macdonalds after riding at Glentress (on this forum?)I just don't know where to take my business! 😆

such as the two helmets & a nice set of pedals (all will be purchased in this same store)

if youre going to buy helmets/pedals with the spare £900 see if they can add those in with the bike, rather than just asking for the money off then buying the bits afterwards.

also, i agree with zulu.

So are you saying the economy is benefiting less from online retailers like CRC than LBS's then?

If you miss all the people out between 'you' and 'the economy', your arguements remain simple. Well done. You are better than that.

I bought a bike mail order from a remote LBS as it was the cheapest on the net, where does that fit in to the equation?

Back to the OP, you've paid a deposit so are likely to lose it if you do go elsewhere. I'd check out the facts about condition and availability of other bike and then mention this to your LBS - mention that you wouldn't want an exact price match but ask if they can come to some arrangement.

And don't forget "Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest.", I think that quote might come back to haunt you.

Hardly. I've said exactly the same thing on this forum several times in the past too. 🙄

Go and have a search. That'll keep you occupied for a while. Of you go.

Now because your first sentence mentioned online, I took that as the context and therefore you were asking for price matching against online, subsequently you have said

several other retailers including indy shops
which changes the slant quite a bit.

Don't really see how, quite honestly. Several other bike shops and online retailers were doing them at the discounted price. Was an end of season thing. I thought the shop I went into would do the same deal. Seems I actually just missed out by a couple of weeks as it turned out. Such is life.

So here is a question for you; there's a jacket you would like rrp £120, you know the online retailers have it at £72 (40% discount unlikely to be price matched by an indy lbs). Do you buy it online or do you go try them out for size first in an indy lbs

Is there a law against trying something on in one shop yet buying it somewhere else?

Course I'd bloody try it on; I'd need to get the right size regardless of which shop I bought it from. I'm still ultimately buying it off the manufacturers, in't I? If the shop I try it on in won't come down in price, then I'm not going to waste my money, which I don't have a lot of anyway, paying all that extra just to appease the morally outraged on here. 😆 I woon't be doing anything anyone else on here woon't do, no matter how self-righteous they pretend to be. At least I'm honest about it.

If a lot of other places were doing it at a discounted rate, I'd at least expect them to come down a bit if they want the sale.

I've had to go into a bike shop to try a helmet on when I had to have one replaced under the crash replacement scheme. How was I sposed to find the right size without doing so? I told the people in the shop what I was doing, they were ok with it. I've asked to try stuff on I have no intention of buying at full RRP, they've let me. I've actually then got a good discount that way once or twice. 🙂

I am of course morally and ethically bankrupt. I expect all those shops will be bankrupt soon too as a result of my despicable behaviour. 😐

Oh whell such is life.

Cheapest price possible, low perceived value, high sales volume requirement. What a doomed place for any small business.

I'm still ultimately buying it off the manufacturers, in't I?

So, unless we can develop some sort of barter process, there needs to be a capitalist transaction - at least one if buying from the manufacturer - to get these goods.

Your oversimplification to get your weasely words to fit your arguement gets worse with every post. I am well down your Christmas card list, but I expect far better of you than this. I think Z_11 is the Nemesis to your Torqetoomuch and he is actually getting to you now.

So here is a question for you; there's a jacket you would like rrp £120, you know the online retailers have it at £72 (40% discount unlikely to be price matched by an indy lbs). Do you buy it online or do you go try them out for size first in an indy lbs?

Solve that and you can become a real capitalist - the most informed consultant for the retail industry - and you can buy whatever bike you want! Elfin the new Mary Portas!!

Elfin the new Mary Portas!!

Yay! 😀

[img] [/img]

Your oversimplification to get your weasely words to fit your arguement gets worse with every post.

Right. You go into a shop with the intention of buying something, try it on, don't like it, walk out without purchasing.

Tell me what the difference is with me trying it on with no intention of buying it? Cos, like, the shop still does not in any way get a sale.

Have you bought every single item you've ever tried on? No. So please, don't lecture me, eh?

I think Z_11 is the Nemesis to your Torqetoomuch and he is actually getting to you now.

No; he's just Wrong to my Right, is all. 😀

Well. I think a little less of you than I did, not that I expect you're at all concerned.

That's something that you can't tell me I'm wrong about.

🙁

I went to buy an oak faced bookcase yesterday at a major office suppliers, Staples, asked if they had one in stock , no they said, only to order, and the warehouse is closed till 3 jan, then possibly 10 days delivery time.

So they failed on shed sale and male order sale.

Went to Band Q in stock ,bought and asembeled, bit not available for home delivery, no stock it appears.

Evenin' gents. Would you mind taking your slagging match to PM. Its becoming a ball ache trying to find the posts that aren't a E-peen contest. Cheers.

not that I expect you're at all concerned.

Actually I'm absolutely devastated and from this moment on, I shall vow to change my ways and become the fine upstanding moral citizen all youse lot obviously are. 😥

Would you mind taking your slagging match to PM.

Fair point. Email in profile. Actually I must go and sort my prawns out....

Chickenman

that the folk at the bottom who did most of the work didn't actually get paid at all. Is this not where unfettered capitalism leads to as a logical conclusion? Surely like any other model it can't work in isolation?

I'm not necessarily going to agree or disagree with you, however the paradoxical situation we've gotten into here, is that its Fred/Elfin being the one promoting the free market capitalist vision of "buy wherever is cheapest and damn the wider social consequences" - I'm just calling him a hippocryte for taking that position as it fundamentally conflicts with his self promoted left wing ideology 😉

however the paradoxical situation we've gotten into here, is that its Fred/Elfin being the one promoting the free market capitalist vision of "buy wherever is cheapest and damn the wider social consequences"

No, let's have it right, eh? That's something you've made up in your own head, it's not what I've said at all.

What I did say, was that in a situation where it's one Capitalist Enterprise versus another, I'll probbly go with the one which offers me the best deal according to my economic situation. Which I'd imagine is what the vast majority of people would also go with.

Other people understood this, but that's probbly cos they're not clouded with the pathetic need to get one over someone on the internet.

So, don't be misquoting me and making up crap to suit yer own narrow minded agenda, eh?

Right, prawns are defrosted....

This moral question works both ways. When I went in to ask for a price match at my LBS they were more than happy to do it..the reason they stated was that a: they'd rather make some profit than no profit, and B: they be putting it in the sale after christmas anyway (its now down at 1600, I paid 1400 (in Nov), it was 2150 originally). The point is that if I hadn't asked I'd have lost out on £550 quid and they wouldn't have thought twice about it. And this was regardless of the fact that I spend a small fortune in there over the past 12 months.

Ultimatly as a consumer the biking population get shafted by prices. An equally you are entirely justified to walk away. If any of the people on here would honestly pay the 900 extra for the LBS shop service then good luck to you, you're obviously much richer than me. I suspect the vast majority of the population can't afford such luxury when it comes to morals...

No, let's have it right, eh? That's something you've made up in your own head, it's not what I've said at all.

I think pwople can make up their own mind what you said - and here's some choice [b]quotes
[/b]

[i]Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest
[/i]

[i]Business is business; dog eat dog. My priority is to myself, I can't be concerned with the profit margins of others.

Most of the time I just want the problem fixed for the cheapest price though, innit?

My financial resources are finite and limited. I, and most people I suspect, do not have sufficient disposable income to act charitably towards a private business. Are they going to give me a significant discount because i have less money than someone else? No. Ergo, I go where I can get a better deal for me. I don't have the luxury of choice. And neither do most others.[/i]

ElfinPwned 😆

100

What, for favouring one capitalist enterprise over another? [b]Since when was a bike shop a lovely wooly socialist enterprise anyway?[/b] It's a business whose principal function is to generate profit for it's owners, not some altruistic charity. Please explain how I can further Socialism by favouring one Capitalist Enterprise over another, cos I'd love to know...

eerrrrr..... http://www.bicycledoctor.co.uk/ 😉

I'll get some servicing down if I can't do it myself at the LBS. my local LBS' are all chains though (zeroG and cycle surgery). I'll also buy consumables (tubes, cables, lubes etc) sometimes gloves, jerseys etc if they have what I want in stock. I'll never order anything from the LBS though, that defeats the object and even the offer pisses me off as much as requesting price match pisses them off. I don't request price match any more, it upsets them so I just go online straight away.
Ultimately I'll buy online if it saves me a good bit of money (by my standards) but try not to mess the LBS around.
In answer to the OP, I would feel a little conflicted but £900 is a lot of money. Money which you have worked hard for.

Should we now mention that STW's own angry young mayn (sic) used to earn his pennies at a bike shop? 🙂

Money which you have worked hard for.

Well that's debatable 😆

Cheers for the input guys and gals. I think I'm going to at least try to come to some sort of compromise as I doubt they want to lose the business & I'd like to continue using them after this purchase.

What's the prawn defence?

(As per the tags).

I think this thread pretty much sums up why you lot are the worst kind of bike shop customers, and makes me happy I'm not running a normal bike shop 🙂

The LBS is caught between a rock and a hard place - the real advantage the LBS has is that you can actually go in and try stuff on or take it for a test ride. But they can't stop you then taking that valuable information and going elsewhere. But then, if something goes wrong, again it's the local LBS who often has to sort it out.

I guess there are several answers - one answer is that not everyone values money above everything else, and is perfectly fine to pay a bit extra to support a local shop. Not support in an altruistic way, but support so they're still in business for warranty work, and for the next time you need them.

But hey, my MTB is built around a Tomac frame I got for silly money from CRC, so I'm a bit hypocritical about this 🙂

Is there a law against trying something on in one shop yet buying it somewhere else?

Of course there isn't a law against it. This may seem strange, but I asked the question to get an idea of your attitude towards this sort of thing, which is quite clear. Bringing in the manufacturer is irrelevant is this.

I woon't be doing anything anyone else on here woon't do, no matter how self-righteous they pretend to be. At least I'm honest about it.

Well you're doing something I won't do; I have never gone into a shop to try something on for size knowing I had every intention of buying online. Whether you believe me or not is up to you, but I'm being honest.

Like I said before, if I want an online price I'll buy online, I don't bother asking for a price match. Because if you think about it there is no need.

Should we now mention that STW's own angry young mayn (sic) used to earn his pennies at a bike shop?

As did your good self, iirc. 😉

Oh btw, thanks for the tip about Boisdales; my mum loves jazz, dun't she, so she's definitely going to check it out. She said to thank you for your help. She also told me to tell you something which was in Latin, but I'm afraid I'm a bit rusty on that score, and have forgotten what it was. Never mind. I'm sure it was something suitably complimentary.

We ended up going to that most sophisticated of venues; Wetherspoons in Victoria Station. Had a burger each, plus some fantastic dark German beer and a pint of Blue Moon American wheat beer, which is really nice.

Of course, it meant we had to mix with some ghastly lower class types, but one must grin and bear it, mussunt one?

X

What's the prawn defence?

It's when I've said what's what, and others have just descended into talking cobblers once more/having snidey pops at me cos they've run out of owt intelligent to say, and I've got bored and toddled off to cook some prawns. Happens quite a bit tbh.

Proper lovely prawns they are too. Love the way they're 'Scottish' blue, then go pink in seconds! 😆

Bought from an Independent LPS (Local Prawn Shop) rather than one of those horrible beastly online prawn dealers, you'll all be very relieved to hear. 😀

Mmm.. prawns.

Frozen Planet on iPlayer- sorted. 🙂

Elfin - you played the prawn defence brilliantly. Well done on keeping cool under pressure and for avoiding a slagging match - impressive for STW. You dug deeper with excellent humour!!

And you buy Apple stuff.........!?!!

Personally (and I may be alone in this) I think Elfinsafety has been hijacked by a Troll. I'm serious - previously I have thought he had a valid opinion. Tonight I do not. In addition to that he seems to be adding a y to every third word e.g. 'thayt'. WTF?

We used to have standards on here but tonight it feels as if I'm listening to my 9 year-old daughter's friends.

Whilst I'm having a rant, STOP USING "does not in any way" AND "IZZENT" THEY ARE NOT REAL WORDS YOU ****WITS! Rant over.

TBH having read a fair few of the posts on this thread I find myself in general agreement with Elfin...

As much as some of you seem keen to turn buying a bike at the cheapest possible price into some sort of Socio-political, Thatcherite Mission statement, it's simply being sensible with your own financial resources...

I'd contend that those who can actually afford to pay full RRP in their LBS and do so for the touchy-feely "personal touch" of buying a bike from a person rather than an interweb page are perhaps paid too highly to qualify as proper "socialists". I wish I earned enough to have your high moral values...

Where do the great and the good stand on companies like on-one - direct retailers of far eastern produced goods?
Where do they figure in the great STW socialist republic?
I don't suppose they've had any money from a single one of you have they?

cookeaa - While most folk appreciate that the online model is correct for many purchases, that doesn't mean taking the piss out of local shops by using them as a handy changing room or a place to try out your proposed purchase. If you think the online retail system is the one for you, then at least let them bear the cost of sending you the wrong size, going through the re-stocking and sending you out the right one. If they need to increase their margins slightly to accommodate this overhead, that's just making it more "fair" all round. Your small local shop isn't being paid by CRC, Merlin or Wiggle to provide this service for you.

I don't use my LBS as "Google's Show room" I normally know what I want I find a reasonable price for it online first, I'll go into a shop and discuss the price match options, and I'd be willing to pay a bit more than the cheapest price to walk away with the item then and there, but I'm not going to cut my own throat just like the retailer won't.

If I go into browse I'm more than likely not going to make a purchase and I won't try anything on I'm not serious about buying...

You can sentimentalize it all you want but its a simply business transaction if either party doesn't get what they need from it they can simply turn the deal down.

I appreciate the difference in overheads between CRC and my LBS and understand they offer some things that an online retailer simply can't but often the consumer proposition of the online retailer fits my needs better...

Each man has a price for his morals. Mine is certainly less than £900, but more than a pair of shoes 🙂

cookeaa - Member
I don't use my LBS as "Google's Show room"

I'll go into a shop and discuss the price match options

This is the bit I don't get. Today, my car wiper blade was flapping about. Looked online, and could get one for £10, but needed one right away, so went to Halfords and paid £18. It just didn't occur to me to ask them to price-match. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but to me the price that's on the ticket is the price. If that price is acceptable to me, I buy it, if it's not then I don't. It just seems rude to haggle.

It just seems rude to haggle

[img] [/img]

Sounds like your manners are costing you money then...

So you think if I'd shown the Halfords checkout girl the online price, I could have got some money off?

[url= http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_14552_productId_563158_langId_-1_categoryId_173017 ]See here...[/url]

Halfords Guarantees
Price Promise

If you can buy the same product cheaper, within seven days and 20 miles of the store, Halfords will match the price. Even against trade outlets! Please ask in your local Halfords store for details of terms and conditions. Excludes online and catalogue orders.

Shop about a bit Halford ain't the only ones in the wiper blade game... and they do have a price matching policy...

Do you get my point, though? Why is haggling acceptable in some situations and not in others? Is it really because with an LBS you are dealing with a small company who perhaps needs your money more? I'm honestly interested in the psychology.

And do you do a full cost-benefit analysis, working out how much time you spend shopping around to save some money? Is it alwas worth shopping around, or isn't it often better to just pay the first price and then go do something better with your time?

If Fred thinks it's OK to try something in a bricks & mortar shop & then buy elsewhere, then why not have the balls to tell the shop your intentions when you walk in & see how happy they are about it.
You could of gone in & asked about the price first, then tried them on if you were happy, by doing it the other way around you have shown your mettle.

People have changed, the world has changed. You would be amazed how brazen people are getting, I often have people phoning up asking how to fix something so they can do it themselves or get a cheaper mechanic to do it, or test a car with no intention of buying from us, & by default costing us money. DIY is fine, but do your own research on the net or in a library, don't use others payed for resources, you don't go to work for free so don't expect others to give their time & experience for free.

Cheers.

If Fred thinks it's OK to try something in a bricks & mortar shop & then buy elsewhere, then why not have the balls to tell the shop your intentions when you walk in & see how happy they are about it.

I have done this. Read what I posted:

I've asked to try stuff on I have no intention of buying at full RRP, they've let me.

Mind telling me what I've done that's [b]illegal[/b] in any way?

See, what I'm actually doing, is showing shops that if they want my custom, and that of many many others, they need to recognise that they are losing sales to online retailers, and act accordingly. As I said earlier, I'm not going to lose sleep over the struggles of one sector of a Capitalist Enterprise over another.

you don't go to work for free so don't expect others to give their time & experience for free.

I've done loads of things for others, for nowt. As many people do. Not everything I do for others, I expect payment for. I'm not that nasty and selfish and capitalist...

Here's how Elfinomics works:

I have fifty pounds. I need some new shoes. Online they are forty pounds, in a shop they are fifty pounds.

I buy them online, and with the ten pounds saved, I can then buy a kebab and a six pack of lager.

Elfinomics = more small businesses benefit, wealth spread round more people = Socialist. 😀

ElfinPwned

No, you've bin [b][i]Prawned[/i][/b]!

Can I ask a stupid question? The rates that high street shops pay - do online retailers pay these too?

c_g, many of the larger online operations will be run from out of town locations. In some cases, they may well have rates relief or other incentives from local councils. If they are really lucky they get government assistance too - especially if setting up in an area struggling to attract investment for such as terrorist activity 🙂

Oh, and let's look at how two businesses that started off as LBS's have 'suffered' over the years:

Cycle Surgery; started as one tatty shop in Islington, now a chain of 24 shops nationwide.

Evans Cycles; started out as one shop in Kennington, now a chain with 45 shops nationwide.

Both have swallowed up loads of small independent LBS's in London especially, over the last 10 years or so. They now operate almost a cartel in London; surely their increased purchasing power must be hurting other indy shops? I've certainly known of a few shops which have closed due to an Evans opening nearby, for sure.

So do we not shop at Evans or Cycle Surgery because of the 'damage' they have done to the indy LBS industry?

But what if we do patronise a particular LBS, they become wealthy and powerful and put other LBS's out of business?

Oh what to do, it's all so confusing.... 🙁

Thanks druidh. 🙂

Just trying to understand whether there's a level playing field.

I support my lbs for bike builds/part swops/repairs due to complete ineptitude of all things mechanical. What I think is a shame is that they are governed by some manufacturers with regard to quantity of stock. For example, my lbs are unable to order further from Gore Bike Wear once their seasonal order has been fulfilled.

I've needed to order clothing online and if something doesn't fit then it's expensive to return particularly if by registered post.

If you believe the grim trigger strategy is applied day to day (and I expect it is by the larger operators like CRC), then price matching is bad for the consumer.

As an example, Merlin cycles and CRC may both sell the same set of Deore brakes. Merlin might be happy to sell them at £100 a set, whilst CRC already has them on sale at £120 a set.

But CRC operate a price match policy. If Merlin sell the brakes, pretty quickly CRC will be matching that price, and Merlin will have derived very little advantage from selling at the lower price. In the long run, they'd have probably been better off selling all their sets of brakes at £120.

The end result is that price matching discourages cutting prices, and encourages the stabilisation of prices.

You get an informal cartel where the consumer is acting to make sure every retailer gets the information they need.

Elf - surely the independant lbs need to raise their game? I've only once been in an Evans and was distinctly unimpressed. The layout was messy and not a huge selection either.

Aren't Cycle Surgery now owned by Snow & Rock?

I'm with Elfin on this one. Amazing to see how much money people have to throw away because they feel obliged to buy at their LBS.

I'll pay a few more quid to buy from LBS, as it saves me having to order online, possibly go and collect parcel from post office, and then return it if it's not what I want. However, if it's more than £5 more, I'll shop online for the best price.

LBS's tend to make most of their money from punters coming in off the street, with no idea what they want. I'd suggest most people know how to build/fix and run their own bikes, needing very little input or help from the LBS? I think the only thing I'd use mine for is for truing wheels (although, once I learn how to do it myself, that'll be one more thing I won't need them for).

cinnamon_girl - Member
surely the independant lbs need to [b]raise their game[/b]?

druidh - see my comments about my lbs and Gore Bike Wear. I obviously don't know whether this is typical of a manufacturer but surely an lbs should be able to order what a customer needs and not be dictated to?

price matching is bad for the consumer

I have no idea how you've worked that out, I'll be perfectly honest.

Elf - surely the independant lbs need to raise their game?

This is what I said from the start. But how do they do that? I'm not a LBS owner (thankfully), so I don't know the answer. Obviously servicing rakes in a fair bit, and stuff like innertubes and essentials, but how do they become more competitive against online retailers? I've suggested a couple of ideas earlier, but they seemed to get ignored in the wave of vitriol which swept my way...

See, this bit is more pertinent; if LBS's offer say local guided rides, organised biking holidays and stuff, as well as things like cycling awareness/proficiency courses for local kids, maybe do mechanics training for disaffected yute dem, helped out with local charities and thayt, then fair enough. Maybe there are some that do, but how many?

People seemed to be too busy accusing me of being a Thatcherite to bother thinking about that bit. 😆

Where do the great and the good stand on companies like on-one - direct retailers of far eastern produced goods?

I also mentioned this, but again, no response:

What about companies like On-One, what source stuff directly from abroad, sell only online, undercut the competition and I'd imagine do ok? Aren't they the same as the Evil CRC etc?

Surprise surprise...

Aren't Cycle Surgery now owned by Snow & Rock?

Yeah, bought out a few years ago. Made the founders, Ben and Steve, a rather tidy sum apparently. Fair play to them; they started a small business which provided for the specialist market, but din't lose sight of their bread and butter customers, and provided an excellent service for commuters etc. Offered a refreshing alternative to the slick corporate machine that Evans became. Great little business, and I'm pleased I worked there for a bit. As a former employee, I even got a nice discount on stuff after I'd left, but that stopped when S+R took over, sadly. 🙁

IMO they're just another big chain like Evans; charge full RRP on just about everything, and nowhere near the 'friendly local bike shop' feel they once had. Ah well that's progress I spose. Capitalism in action.

c_g - That's a rather strange tale. I don't know of any reason that a small shop couldn't order one or two items at a time from Gore. I certainly used to do this when I worked in a shop. However, it might have been that Gore themselves were out of stock after the initial orders were placed and fulfilled. This quite often happens, especially as the manufacturers don't want to be sitting on expensive, unsold stock.

What about companies like On-One, what source stuff directly from abroad,[b] sell only online,[/b] undercut the competition and I'd imagine do ok? Aren't they the same as the Evil CRC etc?

Haven't you answered your own question?

Haven't you answered your own question?

I wanted to see what the hypocritical knee-jerkers thought. 😉

Then you've got stuff like Specialized refusing to supply a bike shop near one of their preferred retailers; working in the bike retail trade, used to see this quite a bit. Think ATB Sales (Marin) operated a similar policy. something to do with it enabling Specialized to have tighter control on the prices their products are sold for, 'price fixing' if you like. All a bit complicated never saw the logic in that meself but there you go.

And how is something like Madison being the sole importers of Shimano stuff in the UK (excepting the big online boys) in the inertests of 'free market economics'? So, LBS has to buy from Madison, no choice, forced to pay loads more than CRC does, can't offer customers the same deal. How is that in the consumer's interests? Isn't that effectively a kind of monopoly?

There's far more powerful things affecting the cycle retail industry than me trying on a jacket or pair of shoes then buying online....

I have no idea how you've worked that out, I'll be perfectly honest.

Price match promises ensure an extremely cheap flow of pricing information to the retailer (much of the time the consumer is alerting the retailer), allowing them to react quickly to competitor price cuts. This makes it fairly pointless for their competitors to cut prices.

Probably the starkest example of this is John Lewis - if House of Fraser or Debenhams ever discount, John Lewis match it tit for tat.

As for the likes of Specialized telling their IBDs what selling prices to use, the law is pretty strict on that subject - at most Specialized will conduct price audits and tell stores that the average price for a Rockhopper is currently £399, the average price for a Trek 3.0 or whatever is £395 etc.

Doing your own store price audits is rather more expensive than getting your customers to do it for you though...

I still don't see how the [i]consumer[/i] suffers in all that, though...

See, this bit is more pertinent; if LBS's offer say local guided rides, organised biking holidays and stuff, as well as things like cycling awareness/proficiency courses for local kids, maybe do mechanics training for disaffected yute dem, helped out with local charities and thayt, then fair enough. Maybe there are some that do, but how many?

Some do offer guided rides, some do sponsor riders including youngsters. IIRC Mr Poddy was involved in mechanics for youngsters but not sure whether disaffected. Some, I should think, would be glad to see the back of their customers. 😉

druidh - it may well be cos it was ladies clothing. Recently had to order from Rose who are in Germany, purely due to sizing. Excellent service though!

I have done this. Read what I posted:

I did read it, you went in for a crash replacement, but did you buy the original from them?

I've asked to try stuff on I have no intention of buying at full RRP, they've let me.

[u]You[/u] have no intention of buying at RRP, but did the shop know that or did you inform them first?

Mind telling me what I've done that's illegal in any way?

You have done nothing illegal, just immoral & that's what people are getting at. If your fine with it then bully for you.

Cheers.

I'm with Elfin on this one. Amazing to see how much money people have to throw away because they feel obliged to buy at their LBS.

I don't feel obliged to buy at my LBSs and I'm not debating people should be, in fact (and this may surprise people as I used to have a bike shop) I don't buy much from the LBSs around here.

I'd suggest most people know how to build/fix and run their own bikes, needing very little input or help from the LBS?

Maybe people on here, but my experience tells me otherwise. I couldn't believe it when a bike was bought in for a puncture repair. In fact STW don't represent the majority of cyclists, the problem quite often with LBSs (me included) is that they are started by enthusiasts who want to sell bikes and kit used by STWers and end up caught in between that market and the non-STW market; if I had my time again I'd aim fair and squarely at the family\kids market and open up directly opposite a halfords.

What grinds you down though is people (elf not included from his previous posts) coming in with the intention of buying online only to try stuff on before they do so. If they were up front like Elf when they walked in, then the LBS has a chance with the situation.

I think elf suggested LBSs getting together which I think was tried in the past, maybe it should be re-visited, but again my experience was that there was very little ambition to work together for the greater good of all, shame.

IMO they're just another big chain like Evans; charge full RRP on just about everything, and nowhere near the 'friendly local bike shop' feel they once had. Ah well that's progress I spose. Capitalism in action.

and this is where I think we're headed, that is a few large chains in the high street like the above and online retailers.

On and for the record; we had shop rides, ran a kids bike club (kept going after we shut), managed and built trails locally.

I did read it, you went in for a crash replacement, but did you buy the original from them?

Nope. Spesh themselves told me to go to a shop selling them to try one on.

You have no intention of buying at RRP, but did the shop know that or did you inform them first?

Yep.

Me: I'm going to buy something online, but need to try it on for size first. Is that ok?

Them: (Chuckle) Yeah mate, no worries!

With the shoes recently, when I walked in I asked them if they price matched. 'Yeah mate, we do'.

Ok so. Tried on shoes. Told them price other retailers were doing them for.

[i]'Oh no sorry, we don't price match discount and sale prices'.[/i]

Ok, I'll buy them online then. Thanks for letting me try them on, thanks for your help.

[i]'No worries!'[/i]

No big deal.

You have done nothing illegal, just immoral

Morality, unless supported in Law, is nothing more than the onion of individuals. Who are you or anyone else to impose your moral standards on me? What makes you so self-righteous?

Me: I'm going to buy something online, but need to try it on for size first. Is that ok?

With the shoes recently, when I walked in I asked them if they price matched. 'Yeah mate, we do'.

Hats off, I wished that had happened more often. I'd probably have qualified the online prices first to see if we were in for a shout.

I still don't see how the consumer suffers in all that, though...

The consumer suffers because there is a far smaller incentive for retailers to compete on price, so the consumer pays more for the same item.

I suspect it must go on to some extent in the UK cycle business as Wiggle, CRC and Merlin are all pretty close to one another on price.

On the other hand, a firm like Rose can undercut them massively, most likely because the major UK online firms are are all benchmarking against each other, and not against Rose who probably have diddly% of UK market share.

With the shoes recently, when I walked in I asked them if they price matched. 'Yeah mate, we do'.

Ok so. Tried on shoes. Told them price other retailers were doing them for.

'Oh no sorry, we don't price match discount and sale prices'.

Ok, I'll buy them online then. Thanks for letting me try them on, thanks for your help.

'No worries!'

No big deal.

That story sounds far better than the way you put it earlier 😉

Morality, unless supported in Law, is nothing more than the onion of individuals. Who are you or anyone else to impose your moral standards on me? What makes you so self-righteous?

Me, I'm a nobody, but as I said when I wrote it, [b]If your fine with it then bully for you.[/b]

Cheers.

There is a place for online retailers, chain shops, and small independents, and I use all three at different times.

But, I don't agree with using 'on the ground' shops to try things on / check them out, and then deliberately go and buy then online cos they're cheaper. Neither do I agree with expecting shops to match online prices. On the ground shops have higher costs (rates / products more widely spaced for viewing rather than piled high etc), and they do already provide an 'additional service' which is the ability to try / see / test products.

Sure, it's not 'illegal' to try stuff in a shop, expect then to price match, and if they don't, go and buy it online. But I don't rely on the law to tell me what I consider to be right / wrong, and I prefer to act on a way that I personally consider to be ethical. I don't have money to waste, and I will buy online, but I don't exploit the 'try on' service that shops provide.

Sorry - double post

Sorry - double post

If only that were the case, Sue. 🙁

Elfin - my comments aren't a judgement on anyone else, just my personal thoughts on the topic. It's not my place to comment on or judge the behaviour of others - we are all subject to different pressures which affect our decisions and behaviour, and what might be right for me might not be right for someone else.

Morality, unless supported in Law, is nothing more than the onion of individuals. Who are you or anyone else to impose your moral standards on me? What makes you so self-righteous?

Fred - I really think that quote might be coming back to bite you on the arse in future mate 😀

BTW - did you see this in the news about Thatch looking after the pennies, taking care of her scaynt financial resources and all that
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16319101

More in common than you thought, Eh Freddie 😆

This thread really applies to independant shops in general , not just bike shops.
Government and local council policy in the past 3 decades has totally changed the look of our high streets and the romantic notion of resurecting them is dead and buried unless online retailers and these bland sheds known as superstores face higher taxation,however it is levied.
After being in retail for about 20 years nothing at the moment would tempt me back to renting a high street shop.

I'd prefer to support a lbs. In return I'd like good service. For that I would pay more. (I would never, ever, ever, go into a shop and try something on then go and buy it online, ever).

In Evans I met utter disinterest, unhelpfulness, sneering and dismissiveness. (They were the provider in my employer's ride to work, so many other people from work complained that HR changed provider).

CycleSurgery don't seem too bad, most of the staff I have dealt with have been courteous and knowledgeable, no branches close to me though and I couldn't 'adopt' a chain as my lbs anyway.

Most small lbs I have had dealings with offer poor customer service. For example:

I ring to order a chainring. £30 from CRC £35 from lbs. I order from lbs.
They tell me it will be there the next Saturday. I go there next Saturday. They look at me blankly, I ask where it is, they rummage round the desk, have lost the piece of paper they wrote my order on, can I tell them again? They say they will order it and it will be in the following Saturday.
£35 + 1 week + £5 in diesel (let's ignore the wear on the tyres, gearbox etc).
Not having heard to the contrary from the bike shop, I go there the next Saturday, it hasn't arrived. It will be there the next Saturday.
£35 + 2 weeks + £10 in diesel.
The following Saturday I ring ahead to see if it is there. IT IS! Much joy. I go to collect.
£35 + 3 weeks + £15 in diesel.
Bad service.
Chain Reaction. I go online one lunchtime, I can see instantly if it's in stock, I order and pay online. I go home. I go to work the next day. Item is on my desk.
£30 + 1 day.

This, and similar, has happened to me more than once. Wonder why people shop online?

Both have swallowed up loads of small independent LBS's in London especially, over the last 10 years or so. They now operate almost a cartel in London; surely their increased purchasing power must be hurting other indy shops? I've certainly known of a few shops which have closed due to an Evans opening nearby, for sure.

So do we not shop at Evans or Cycle Surgery because of the 'damage' they have done to the indy LBS industry?

I think you're making a point that change and growth is inevitable and natural, I agree with that. But as someone who knows both sides of this, can I point out the other side of some of your statement -

I think 'cartel' is far from the truth of how they operate. I know single-outlet IBDs that have benefitted from an Evans being nearby. I also know some that closed due to competition for other shops. That probably has as much to do with how sustainable or competitive the smaller IBD was in the first place than it has to do with Evans or Cycle Surgery.

Evans simply opens in population-dense areas that can support the shop's size and these areas will usually have existing IBDs. They also don't discount heavily in a way that upsets other retailers in the way that Merlin or CRC do. The trade and customer needs both types of retailer and I know the general attitude and policy at the top of Evans is not to aggresively challenge small IBDs, but to simply trade where they hope to succeed. It just reflects how the retail landscape is changing.

It's easy to perceive growth of multi-outlet shops as aggressive take-overs or coming at the expense of other smaller shops but I see it as just the way the high street is changing. Is Velorution challenged by CC and Evans being a few streets away? I doubt it, they're a unique shop and probably benefit from having a few bike shops in close proximity, each catering for a different market while having some cross-over that draws customers to the area. It comes down to business viability for the market sector.

And how is something like Madison being the sole importers of Shimano stuff in the UK (excepting the big online boys) in the inertests of 'free market economics'? So, LBS has to buy from Madison, no choice, forced to pay loads more than CRC does, can't offer customers the same deal

I used to look after CRC's account at Madison many years back. They buy at the same rate as is available to any other IBD for a qty rate. ie RDs - buy about 5+ and you've got best pricing whoever you are. Or they tend to take advantage of offer stock and buy in heavily - offers that are open to all IBDs. Merlin and CRC's pricing maybe due to OE parts or simply shifting more at lower margins, I don't know, but it's a myth that they buy boxed UK stock Shimano at anything lower than other IBDs can get by buying more than 1 or 2 at a time. CRC are a canny company and bought in a more focussed and profit-orientated way than a lot of IBDs did.
They're also like most larger businesses in the trade, able to take end of lines and clearance deals and they become a go-to for sales managers looking to move stock on. Planet X, Merlin, Evans, they can all operate like this but it would be harder for a lower-turnover IBD to take that kind of stock volume and sell it.

I think Madison do a good job of managing Shimano service and rrp, a single outlet helps prevent grey importing and devaluationas long as there's little incentive to grey import - ie rrps must be fair and realistic market value at the time. It keeps some value in the parts and make it worth dealing with. Competition with SRAM and Campag will keep it all balanced. Strip out the margins and there's no incentive to stock it, service it etc.

Just my perspective from working onboth sides of the trade, rather than an argument point )

Is Velorution challenged by CC and Evans being a few streets away? I doubt it, they're a unique shop

This is key. '"Uniqueness'. This is what indy LBSs need to do. Around the Holborn/Grays Inn area there's a Cycle Surgery, an Evans, as well as the indy Condor and BikeFix. Two cater for the 'mass market' if you will, whilst the two indys offer specialists products and services that the two chains don't. All seem to be co-existing quite well. And it's great the customer has such a choice.

But this is London, where cycling has exploded in the last few years. What about other areas? Are indy LBS's faring as well?

I used to look after CRC's account at Madison many years back. They buy at the same rate as is available to any other IBD for a qty rate. ie RDs - buy about 5+ and you've got best pricing whoever you are. Or they tend to take advantage of offer stock and buy in heavily - offers that are open to all IBDs.

But how many indy LBS's can take advantage of bulk purchasing options? CRC could buy say wunundred XT mechs at say twenty pounds each trade, but how many LBSs can do that? Instead, they might buy say five at twenty five pounds each or whatever. Meaning either they suffer a smaller profit margin, or sell them for more than what CRC charge. So to say that the offer is available to all bike shops is a fallacy; the indy LBSs can't buy in at such volume, can they? So they're never going to benefit from the bulk discount. If they formed buying co-operatives with other LBS's they could though...

Do CRC still have to buy through Madison? Why are Madison the sole distributors for the UK? That's a monopoly, surely? How does that favour the consumer?

And I thought/hoped Elfin's questions had been answered 🙄

2unfit2ride - Member
And I thought/hoped Elfin's questions had been answered

Yeah, but halfman missed his wunundred innit

bruneep - Member
100

What's up Hilldodger; bored of stalking folk on Facebook?

What made you think I'd want to have any communication with you, just out of interest? 😕

And I thought/hoped Elfin's questions had been answered

Nah, there's some interesting stuff here, interesting to read others' views, and stuff like Jameso's post. Shame a few inadequate types feel the need to spout vitriolic crap but there you go. I spose they need some sort of outlet for their frustrations...

Pretty much every brand has a sole UK distributor - Ison does Rohloff, Fishers do SRAM, etc etc. That's pretty much standard for everything, not just bike stuff. How does it favour the consumer? Well, it means the product has one representative responsible for the brand in the UK, the buck stops there, so to speak.

The best deal for the consumer isn't just the best price, it's the best package of price, availability, warranty support, spares, etc.

Madisons trading terms vary year to year and I don't remember the detail, but general principle is that the best price rate for Shimano (and other) parts was for a realistic multiple, say 4-6 on many items you'd expect to find on a shelf such as RDs or chainsets. It's nothing out of reach for an organised IBD. Most distributors work this way afaik. Beyond that it's no cheaper in general, it's more about trading on offer lines etc.

Larger purchase offers like end of line may be out of reach to a smaller IBD, but that's down to business model, it's no fault or failure of any party. If an IBD has free cash to buy and advertising reach to sell, what's stopping them buying the last 2011 Rockshox forks, or 770 generation XT chainsets? CRC and Evans etc will do this routinely as scale and reach allow it. Joe Av Cycles can't sell them fast enough to turnover the investment so won't bother - but he also may not need that kind of trading to have a sustainable business. Speculate to accumulate ... not all end of line buys reap rewards for the bigger companies either.

Madison aren't a monopoliser, they're a sole agent distributor - maybe the same thing in some minds but I'm not gettting into semantics. A monopoly suggests dictatorial control whichthey don't and can't have. They benefit the trade and the consumer (and I think most IBDs would agree here) by maintaining Shimano's commercial viability that would be reduced if it came down to jobbing out cheaply imported OE parts - ie they keep a good range of spares and support the warranty well, they market it via sponsorship and LBSs can call up and get support and info readily. That is something you wouldn't get (or would certainly be reduced) from a couple of competing pile-high sell-cheap distributors making less and selling for less - yes, ultimately rrps would be less, but what you win with lower prices you'll lose when something goes wrong or needs service.
Other good distributors do the same thing for similar brands that have more complex ranges and back up, like Rockshox or Fox.

edit to add, I guess what I'm pointing out is that there's really little or no cut-throat business practice or unethical trading in the bike industry. It's not oil or land trading. It's a nice place to work and people who have a good business head and understand their product and market tend to do well. A more 'hobbyist' shop is a lovely place to have nearby, but commercial pressures still apply to them.

The best deal for the consumer isn't just the best price, it's the best package of price, availability, warranty support, spares, etc.

Fair enough. I do feel that with the sheer volume of Shimano gear especially imported into the UK, that having one supplier might be detrimental to the interests of the consumer though. I guess Shimano prefer it like that, as they can have greater control over the end price.

Interesting that the On-One question hazzunt bin answered....