[Closed] How long to hold a stretch? (Stiff muscle & injury content)

I avoid all injuries by refusing to learn any medical terms whatsoever. It's always the people that know the names of muscles and whatnot that end up injured.

As my grandmother said about wheelchairs: "Think it, and you're in it".

Healthy ignorance is bliss.

EDIT: I fulfilled the First Law of forum posts by making only an oblique reference to the OP's question so I'd better fulfil the Second Law by offering uninformed and quite possibly dangerous advice, viz: I met this bloke at a race and he was quite fast (faster than me anyway) so he obviously knew what he was on about and he told me to stretch until it really, really hurt and then stretch a bit more. Apparently if you can still stand up you haven't stretched hard enough.

DHW - if you have nothing to contribute, please, fulfil your daily duties for your village elsewhere.
Edit: Have you been drinking?

Hic!

I think you're one of the "worried well". There's basically nothing wrong with you is there?

Anyway, you've sought professional by visiting a real-life physio (or is that two physios - I'm not sure) and now you're asking on An Internet Forum.

What did you expect?

But how long do I hold the max flex with these exercises? I was told by a.n.other physio more than 20 seconds was a waste of time.

That's what I've heard. Little & often too - not just twice a day.

I visited the physio and she has given me a couple of quad stretching exercises ...But how long do I hold the max flex with these exercises? I was told by a.n.other physio more than 20 seconds was a waste of time.

What makes you think the unwashed STW collective are going to know better than a qualified physio?

Unless we have any unwashed STW physios here of course.

go and get professional advice. Stretching is a bit controversial anyway.

Some say you need to hold over 30 secs for the muscle to accept it's being stretched

DWH is wrong, ive hurt a bit of my leg/ankle/foot that i have no idea what its called.

I've been to the physio (more than one in the business) and had two different opinions.
Last year I stretched for hours each week and in the long run, it seemed to make no difference at all, so I too am in TJ's camp here.

EDIT: Have you ever noticed: DWH has never once started a thread here on this forum? Now that takes some doing & tells us all we really need to know!

What I have suggested has worked for me, but just for recovery, not injuries as such.

The other issue I have with stretching is if you do it before a ride (ie: cold) and not post ride (warmed muscle groups). last year I was left wondering if this makes the biggest difference as I seemed to make little head-way.

Have you any links TJ on your comment that it's "controversial anyway" ?

In the past swimming has been a much more effective way of easing muscle pain than stretching - for me anyway

20 seconds is right but there is no proven science but 20 seconds and the muscle will know it's being stretched ! Stretching should be just gentle too - don't over stretch or jerk (not 'carry on' jokes please.

Ti - no links. I bet you could find some tho.

The other issue I have with stretching is if you do it before a ride (ie: cold) and not post ride (warmed muscle groups). last year I was left wondering if this makes the biggest difference as I seemed to make little head-way.

Stretching is meant to precent shortening of muscles/tendons that cycling would otherwise create, seems obvious that it is better to stretch after cycling than before. I think there has been research that shows stretching before has no benefit.

SOOBalias - Ah, you've hurt it, but I'll bet it's not stopped you riding has it? Trust me, as soon as you find out what it's called you're doomed.

Swimmimg would be a great tonic as I'm climbing the walls here having gone from 12-15hrs training a week to nothing!

Problem is I smashed the insde of my AC joint in a fall (the clavicle should have snapped but it inpacted into the joint instead).

TJ - aren't you rather falling foul of your comments elsewhere on STW about saying one thing and not providing any links / evidence to support your words? I was rather hoping you might have some links to support your comments as I'm keen to learn more.

Trust me

TJ is right, thinking on stretching changes pretty regularly. My preference is Bob Anderson's book Stretching, nice and clear and fairly common sense. Alternatively have a look at peak performance online for an up to date (i.e. changes every month) look at all aspects of sports science

"Clavicle" and "AC joint" - Brilliant, that's another two!

Did you smash your whatever by falling off the wall you were climbing?

I'm getting confused with all your injuries, but keep 'em coming though. I'm loving phrases like "should have snapped but it impacted into the joint".

Just so long as I remain completely ignorant about what you're talking about I'm sure I'll be totally injury free. It's a sort of 'placebo voodoo' thing 😉

My physio told me to stretch for 5 minutes, either in one stretch if I felt like it or 10 30 second stretches throughout the day (so usualy 3 x 3 x 30-40seconds).

+1 for Bob Anderson's book.

Why not just follow your physio's advice though.

Thanks.
Physio's advice differs and had no lasting effect from 2009.

All references are welcomed and I'll do some reading and see what can be done about it.
Utra sound at the physio's might help but I suspect rest will no doubt solve it in the end, but it's a bu££er to have now cancelled all the summer's events (Merida, Bonty 24 pairs (we were gunning for a top 5 place), Montane Kielder etc).

In my experience, and from what various physios / PTI's have told me, you must stretch for at least 20 seconds but it's not worth stretching for much more than this if for post work-out stretching. For rehabilitation, 30 seconds is better. More than this and it is not good for the elasticity of the tendons / ligaments, which could lead to increased tendency to these sorts of injuries. [u]Apparently. For sure, you must never stretch so much that it hurts.

Bonty 24 pairs (we were gunning for a top 5 place),

Really, I don't think you mentioned it before. You must be really, really quick 😉

Ti29er - Member

TJ - aren't you rather falling foul of your comments elsewhere on STW about saying one thing and not providing any links / evidence to support your words? I was rather hoping you might have some links to support your comments as I'm keen to learn more.

I have been told this by professionals I trust. I believe it to be true. I don't have any other evidence to back it up and am prepared to say so hence my advice to you was to get professional advice.

Well some people on here must stretch quite a lot, even for stw some of these comments suggest that they are able to get up their owna.....

+1 for Ti29er seeking professional help.

(Chortle!)

My cat stretches for about 2-3 seconds, but then it's never read any peer-reviewed papers on the subject.
What an idiot.

Luckily your cat doesn't know the name of any of it's muscles so no matter how long or short it's stretches are it's quite safe from injury.

First of all never stretch cold muscles, warm up for about 10 min's. Then stretch for 10-20 sec's. After your bike ride, do some intense stretching. Holding your stretches for 20-40sec's. The more you stretch the suppler you will be and the less chance of injury. To do a stretch just hold it for 10 sec's until the feeling go's off a bit then stretch a little bit more, hold for 10 sec's and so on. If you stretch, it helps to get rid of lactic acid build up and will help to reduce stiffness the next day.

My physio tells me not to stretch cold muscles - warm them up a bit first - and to stretch them for 20 to 30 seconds in sets of 4 or 5 stretches with 20 to 30 seconds recovery. So I do one leg, then the other, then back to the first.

And you never ballistic stretch, just constant pull on the muscle, as bouncing, kicking, etc, can overextend the muscle and cause damage.

[i]The more you stretch the suppler you will be and the less chance of injury. [/i]

I've never quite got that with respect to activities such as cycling where the range of motion is pretty limited in the first place.

So far as I'm aware, there's some controversy over whether stretching has any magical properties as part of a warm-up or cool down. Personally, I'm not convinced of the need to stretch before pedaling a bike or going for a steady run - provided you get a few minutes of easy effort in at the outset before your workrate goes up.

On the other hand, regular stretching to improve a chronic lack of flexibility would seem like a good idea and could be the difference between picking up injuries and not. It's just nothing to do with either warming up or cooling down.

I got prescribed quad stretches by a physio to cure knee pain that was making walking downstairs quite a challenge. All good now and running and cycling pain free. And after several weeks of calf stretches, I can now do squats in the gym with decent form - so there are indirect benefits too.

My physio's advice, to improve flexibility, was to hold a stretch for 20 - 30 seconds and to repeat several times a day.

You can "future-proof" your stretching by doing the exact opposite of today's received wisdom. When the next lot of research comes out you'll find that you were doing exactly the right thing - until it all flips round again.

It's like butter: First it was OK, then it gave you a heart-attack and margarine was top dog, and now margarine is full of something or other that leads to God knows what unpleasantness. Luckily, whatever the health benefits it's always been really tasty - especially on toast.

So I think if you have some hot-buttered toast before stretching you'll be OK.

Wouldnt bother with pre ride stretching:

Warm-up or stretch as preparation for sprint performance?
Author(s): Stewart M., Adams R., Alonso A., Van Koesveld B., Campbell S.

Citation: Journal of Science and Medicine in Sport, December 2007, vol./is. 10/6(403-410), 1440-2440 (Dec 2007)

Publication Date: December 2007

Abstract: Warm-up and stretching are widely used as techniques in preparation for intense physical activity, yet there is little information available to compare their effectiveness in relation to athletic performance. Fourteen elite Under-19 year old rugby league footballers undertook each of four preparation protocols (no preparation, stretching only, warm-up only, warm-up and stretching) in four successive testing sessions. Protocols were randomly allocated to players in a counterbalanced design so that each type of preparation occurred equally on each day of testing. During each session, athletes performed three solo sprint trials at maximum speed. Sprints were of 40-m distance and were electronically timed with wind speed and direction recorded. Preparation involving warm-up resulted in significantly faster sprint times compared to preparations having no warm-up, with a diminishing effect over the three trials. On the first trial, warm-up resulted in a mean advantage of 0.97 m over 40 m. Stretching resulted in a mean disadvantage of 0.18 m on the first trial, and no significant effect overall despite significant wind assistance. Warm-up was effective at improving immediate sprint performance, whereas an equivalent duration of lower limb stretching had no effect.

Badly wired: Team Heather Mills 3/4 of the way down the pdf.[url= http://www.twentyfour12.com/images/stories/2412_results2009.pdf ]10th last year and one lap was 5hrs (someone fell asleep at 3am).[/url]

So top 5 was on the cards for sure in 2010. 15th in category in the UK 24hr solo champs: so at least I manged one event before it all went south!

How is running a 40m sprint in rugby gear comparable to riding 2 hours through twisty singletrack?

I like a bit of a stretch before I get on that jumps and that. Always feel a bit more flexible afterwards.

Why do you need to tell us your results? Does it have any bearing on stretching? 😉

How is running a 40m sprint in rugby gear comparable to riding 2 hours through twisty singletrack?

I like a bit of a stretch before I get on that jumps and that. Always feel a bit more flexible afterwards.

The argument against static stretching before sport and physical activity
Author(s): Kovacs M.S.

Citation: Athletic Therapy Today, May 2006, vol./is. 11/3(6-8), 1078-7895 (May 2006)

Publication Date: May 2006

Abstract: Static stretching has been used as a warm-up activity for decades, without any credible research to support its benefits for performance or injury prevention. Static stretching before activity reduces performance in strength, speed, and power activities. Static stretching before activity does not appear to reduce injury.

The effect of stretching on sports performance and the risk of sports injury: A review of the literature
Author(s): Gremion G.

Citation: Schweizerische Zeitschrift fur Sportmedizin und Sporttraumatologie, 2005, vol./is. 53/1(6-10), 1422-0644 (2005)

Publication Date: 2005

Abstract: It is generally accepted that increasing the flexibility of a muscle-tendon unit allows a better performance and decreases the number of injuries. Stretching is regularly included in warm-up and in cooling-down exercises. However, contradictory findings have been reported in the literature. Since 1980, several authors have suggested that stretching has a beneficial effect on injury prevention. In contrast, since 1990, clinical evidence suggests that stretching not only does not prevent injuries, but can also decrease the level of performance. Some part of these contradictions can be explained by the various sports activities and the eclectic group of athletes studied. Sports activities requesting an increased flexibility, such as gymnastic, dancing, ice skating or diving, necessitate pre-exercise stretching to optimize the level of performance. [b]In contrary, for sports with slow stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) such as jogging or cycling, there is no scientific data showing a positive effect of stretching on performance, injury prevention and recovery[/b]. On the basis of the literature this article reviews the interest of the pre- and post-exercise stretching on the different modalities such as range of motion improvement, injury prevention and capacity of recovery.

BWired.
YOu asked: "Really, I don't think you mentioned it before."

But the info from others does rather point to the whole stretching when cold being something of a mistake. This fits with last year's experiences. Warm the muscles and then perform the stretches seems to be one logical conclusion thus far, somewhat awkward when you're off the bike! Anecdotal evidence seems to point to injuries improving over time with a regime of stretching though.

I was being ironic.

No you weren't, you're now back pedalling to cover your error.

No, he was being ironic. He really is very good at it.

I really [i]was[/i] being ironic, I've lost count of the number of times you've mentioned your quest to get into the top five at 24/12. But if it makes you happier to think that I wasn't, then that's fine with me as well. Neither are of particularly earth-shattering importance really.

Swap golf for mountain biking in the following article:

Opinion: Who do you think you are?
Author(s): Old, John

Citation: International Journal of Sports Marketing & Sponsorship, April 2008, vol./is. 9/3(162), 1464-6668 (Apr 2008)

Publication Date: April 2008

Abstract: It has often been suggested that the reason why many people take up golf in middle age is because it is the one sport where you can still entertain the delusion of being in possession of a rare, if untrained, talent that, if properly nurtured, or simply discovered, could lead to competition at the highest level.

BDW.
Your maths is extremely poor, or do you only have two fingers (used to stick up at people)?

BWired.
YOu asked: "Really, I don't think you mentioned it before."

Thanks to those who read the question and chose to answer with information.

Sorry, that went completely over my head. Good luck at 24/12, I hope you manage your top five finish 🙂

Now there's irony for you (or just plain stupidity) - since I told you I'm off the bike for 2 months in the opening gambit!

Haven't read all the posts on the thread, but have been suffering from quite a few injuries this year. My Physio has me doing stretches three times a day, holding for thirty seconds. Seems to work for me.

Thanks to those who read the question and chose to answer with information.

No problems matey, I always try to help out when I can.

Tell you what though, to save a bit of time why don't you just tell us the answer your looking for and then we can agree with you. It will save all this ridiculous 'opinion' stuff.

And are we currently supposed to be quoting peer reviewed whatever or have we switched back to anecdotal mode?

And I'm not trying to be ironic. I'm trying to be really helpful.

Shit, no - that last bit [i]was[/i] ironic after all.

And are we currently supposed to be quoting peer reviewed whatever or have we switched back to anecdotal mode?

Dunno. This peer reviewed article says that peer review is biased.

Systemic bias in peer Review: Suggested causes, potential remedies
Author(s): Kadar N.

Citation: Journal of Laparoendoscopic and Advanced Surgical Techniques, March 2010, vol./is. 20/2(123-128), 1092-6429;1557-9034 (01 Mar 2010)

Publication Date: March 2010

Abstract: Objective: The aim of this study was to determine if peer review conducted under real-world conditions is systematically biased. Study Design: A repeated-measures design was effectively created when two board-certified obstetrician-gynecologists reviewed the same 26 medical records of patients treated by the same physician, and provided written evaluations of each case and a summary of their criticisms. The reviews were conducted independently for two different, unaffiliated hospitals. Neither reviewer was aware of the other's review, and neither was affiliated with either hospital or knew the physician under review. This study reports the degree of agreement between the two reviewers over the care rendered to these 26 patients. Results: Three of the 26 cases reviewed had complications. Both reviewers criticized these cases, but criticized 2 of them for different reasons. At least one of the reviewers criticized 14 (61%) of the 23 uncomplicated cases, about which no quality concerns had been raised prior to the review. With one exception, they criticized completely different cases and criticized this 1 case for different reasons. Thus, only 4 of the 17 cases criticized by at least one of the reviewers were criticized by both of them, and only 1 of the 4 cases were criticized for the same reason. The Kappa statistic was -0.024, indicating no agreement between the reviewers (P=0.98). [b]Conclusions: As presently conducted, peer review can be systematically biased even when conducted independently by external reviewers.[/b]

So how about stretch it until you hear a snap, then stop?

My own experiences from last month have led me to pay for a good sports massage once or twice a month.

I competed at 10 under the ben last month (I won't tell you where I came) and finished with a strained tendon behind my knee. I stayed off the bike for a couple of days then went to see a guy on recommedation at my local gym. He inflicted large amounts of pain on my legs through massage, pretty much told me to MTFU and after that I went and competed at the 24hr solo champs that weekend.(again I won't tell you where I came).

Since then I have been consistently riding and competeting without any detrimental effect to my health.

Now there's irony for you (or just plain stupidity) - since I told you I'm off the bike for 2 months in the opening gambit!

Well, I hope you get top five anyway, you deserve it. Maybe someone here would be prepared to race under your name? It seems a shame to miss out just because you can't ride.

i've started to use rollers for my legs although its only twice now so will report back on results later.
Stretches should be to the point where you can feel the stretch but doesn't cause you pain, then held for 30 secs. Try and not 'bounce' whilst stretching either. This info comes from my other halfs dancing days and was taught to them by college/uni teachers. She's very flexible so i believe her (actual evidence)

I tend to stretch minimal amounts a week, but drink (during races) plenty and have a nuun tablet every 3rd bottle.

Not exactly scientific but works for me and for my racing

Saintly: Are you saying you only had one session (?) of massaging the affected area? With only 2 days off? There wasn't much time between the two events was there?

I appreciate it's a different part of the leg and a tendon and not the muscle / tendon junction area, but that sounds like a very short period of being off the bike.

To rub salt in the wound my oppo in the pairs race is hoping BWD will fill in for me! But that's just fanciful 😉

To rub salt in the wound my oppo in the pairs race is hoping BWD will fill in for me! But that's just fanciful

Really?

Of course. The ride is yours should you want it. You'll need a bicycle and & a helmet, but you'll be fine I'm sure.

That's very kind of you, but I'm soloing it. Good luck finding a replacement.

The purpose of stretching is two fold.

1) To remove any tightness in the muscle and thereby allowing it to operate to its full extension.

2) To increase the length of the muscle to improve its range and therefore maximum performance capabilities.

You can use a different process of stretching to achieve these aims. You should stretch to achieve point 2 when your muscles are relaxed and loose. You should stretch before exercise to allow the muscle to perform to its maximum capabilities, as is point 1.

To not warm-up before exercise will only limit your performance. Stretching is only part of a warm-up as is, with cycling, some light spinning or with running, some light jogging.

Lest we forget! 🙄 You do bang on about it, at least you won't have Dave, Dave & Dave to slow you down (again).
And you being

officially an old bastard

Best of luck though.

Ti29,

If I understand you correctly you have no tightness in the injured leg at max extension and this max is about 6 inches away from normal range of movement.

If this is correct then it is likely the purpose of the stretches you have been given is not to increase this range in the same way it would with a warm-up stretch. i.e. you are not removing tightness that is inhibiting movement.

If your range of movement is reduced due to an injury then the stretching will aid the recovery by keeping it working and flexible. Therefore your stretches can be lighter (don't pull to hard) but held for longer - as posted earlier over 30 sec's is wasted, your better to relax and repeat.

If you are trying to get it fixed asap then the hot and cold technique is a great help. Hot water bottle followed by bag of peas (wrapped in towel) held against the damaged muscle stimulates blood flow.

The limited (?) range of movement is not due specifically to the injury. I'm naturally like this.

When stretching I can't feel it on the effected area, it's felt in the top-middle front area of the quads.

I wonder if the physio feels that by getting a better range of stretch it might prevent it occurring again?

I'm there again Friday and will ask her as I don't think there's a specific exercise to hit that muscle / tendon interface & region. Maybe she feels that the lack of flexibility has caused this issue in the first place. I think ultrasound helps prevent scar tissue build up only (?).

ahh ok.

I miss-understood and thought the injury was limiting your range of movement. Therefore what i said is not relevant.

I wonder if the physio feels that by getting a better range of stretch it might prevent it occurring again?

Most likely this is the case.

Warm-up stretching can prevent injury from over extending a tight muscle.

I still recommend the hot-cold treatment. When I used to compete (athletics) it helped get me back from a torn quad in 4 weeks for an important comp.

est we forget! You do bang on about it, at least you won't have Dave, Dave & Dave to slow you down (again).
And you being

officially an old bastard
.
Best of luck though.

Thanks 🙂

I've canned the hip flexor exercise today and will seek another one (I recall on from on line that was effective last time) as it's a lunge-style posture and simply places too much weight onto the affected area; I'm sitting here at work in some discomfort!

Saintly: Are you saying you only had one session (?) of massaging the affected area? With only 2 days off? There wasn't much time between the two events was there?

Yep just one session sorted me out enough to ride the 24hr. 10 under on the Saturday, walked up most of Ben Nevis on the Sunday, gave up as tendon was starting to nip a little. Flat walk on Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday off. Massage on the Thursday, pre rode course on Friday night then alright for the weekend. I also put my granny ring back on for the event to give the option to spin a bit more on the hills. I put it down to a mixture of over training and pushing too bigger gear.

The chap told me it was a Hamstring tendon strain, I also alternately iced and heated it to reduce the swelling.

Worth a shot. Is it painful to ride?

Yes, too much to continue.
I've tried it on 3 different bikes and no joy plus it's sore to the touch.
It seems to be the end of the muscle than the join with the tendon IMHO.