[Closed] How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

They run all season until Mid/Late September then switch to Saturdays. Details on BC website - search for "Thames".

I have attacked and finished last a few times.

It might not work [s]most of the time[/s]at all but it[s]'s[/s]would be bloody amazing [s]when [/s]i[s]t[/s]f [s]does[/s]did.

Still early in the year Kryton.

Decided to knock it on the head this year which was tough, still is. Had a good year though, a win, not once out of the top 10, 6th overall in my CX league. Hopefully I'll be hungry again next year.

That's a shame oldgit but well done to date.

It may be early but I feel time is passing quickly. I've only done 4 races, and Beastway MTB looms. I'm starting to think I should just keep entering as many races as possible. For example although I hadn't planned it I'm in the vicinity of hog hill where there is a crit tonight - although I am on a "break" between training plans (I'm still riding as much) should I go?

I guest Beastway is a crit, just on a different bike/strategy.

How many races per year is the right number?

How many races per year is the right number?

Sorry it was a rhetorical question.

I'm in the same boat as you, plus the added issue this month of being a 5 week month for the Nursery bill 😯

Hence I'm wfh and had planned a lunchtime/evening ride or turbo session. In retrospect it's wet, and I'd rather keep my powder dry/ bike in one piece for next week 😉

It may be early but I feel time is passing quickly.

Exactly that feeling, I remember itching to get some racing done back in January, since it doesn't tend to start up here till March/April.

Done 5 crits so far and the season just seems to be flying by. Struggling to fit in chaingang, crits, distance (preparing for the Etape in July too) etc etc and still feel fresh when needed.

The average speed I've clocked on my gps for most of the 4th cat races I've done has been between 21-23 mph - somewhat lower than what it sounds like at Hillingdon...

It's a tough one - you need to race to get good, but too much can burn you out!

I'd err on the side of less than more, but then I am a non-competitive-fanny and burn out easily

I am a non-competitive-fanny and burn out easily

Says the man who ran a sub 3.30(??) marathon dressed as a woman 🙂

although I am on a "break" between training plans

why would you be on a break between plans yet riding just as much? that seems very odd to me mid season!

How many races per year is the right number?

IME you can't really dip in and out of racing as you end up not being race fit enough compared to those who race consistently from March - Sept, but you do need a mental break from it which is where training sessions like chaingangs come in as still race like speed but without the nerves of racing/being away from home etc. I personally can't do more than 3 - 4 weekends in a row of racing because of the 8ish hours of travel involved but would quite happily race week in week out most of the season if it was on my doorstep/less travel. The more you race, the more you learn/mistakes you make and the easier it becomes. Plus it all becomes a bit more routine so less nerves etc.

I did 7 races in March, but only 2 in April after my crash since i didn't have a race bike for a while...suddenly my target races in June are very close but i don't have the races in my legs that i'd wanted to by now. 😕

why would you be on a break between plans yet riding just as much? that seems very odd to me mid season!

Because I'm not as experienced as you in timing/planning these things. I'd worked an 8-11 crit based week plan for my first races culminating in the road race i was denied early may. 2nd week June I start a sportive / FTP based plan aimed at the MTb Bonty 24/12 and ridelondon100 both of which I have placing/time targets respectively.

When I say "break" I'm still on the bike for 150k a week, 2 of which are either Threshold /vo2 max/sprint turbo sessions. I'm still racing, for example I've at least one perhaps 2 crits next week. I'm just not following a regimented plan from a book/web resource.

The average speed I've clocked on my gps for most of the 4th cat races I've done has been between 21-23 mph - somewhat lower than what it sounds like at Hillingdon...

This makes me nervous too, I'll let you know how it feels next week...

aimed at the MTb Bonty 24/12 and ridelondon100 both of which I have placing/time targets respectively

Wow first 24 and a placing target! I'd targeted finishing without resting too much for my first 24 but pulled out in favour of the Manx 100.

I wouldn't worry about Ride London; race fitness will get you round with a fast time. I think I rode one 70 mile ride over the Surrey Hills before the day last year and I finished over an hour earlier than I expected. Target this year is sub 4:30.

Kryton; Tuesday or Wednesday race? The Tuesday 3/4 would be a better confidence booster for you. I'll be at the Weds vets race.

It'll be Weds Tired as Mrs K has an evening commitment on Tuesdays until the end I this month so I need to babysit. Not worried about working against better riders as if I'm going badly placing-wise it just becomes a warm up for a 3/4 I have the following day - and experience of Hillingdon / flat which will help me choose where I commit a weekly 3/4 at in June (the other being Hog Hill).

Kryton - you're doing crits two days in a row? I did that a couple of weeks ago and just found it too much - still enjoyed it, but on 2nd night felt like there was nothing there for the sprints or when the pace ramped up. Maybe better in a season or two's time when hopefully with a bit more race experience, my effort can be better spent during the race.

Maybe I need to man up, but I feel beaten the day after a race and don't normally do much.

On the other hand is chaingang plus 1 crit a week enough to keep (or get) race fit? (These two sessons are intermingled with longer rides/turbo session/commutes and a couple of runs during the week)

Mtbmoto your training is pretty much the same as mine as my time is dictated by work/ family. I've 120k with the club tomorrow, first time for a while so I shall be putting my new skills to the test against some friendly competition. 😀

Re the Crits - no not really. I find myself located to ride either Hillingdon on Wednesday or Cyclopark on Thursday. I'm going Wednesday to meet Tired and experience Hillingdon for the first time . I shall go at it from the start as a crit and if I find I'm in some way competitive I shall carry on, if not drift off and save my powder for Thursday. If I do end up racing proper on Wednesday then Thursday will depend on how I feel. I'm not sure that I [i]couldn't[/i] do 2 in 2 days though?

It's important for me to experience Hillingdon in a race scenario as it's profile should suit me - but I need to find out.

In anticipation I've put the entire Tuesday series in my diary until September 😀

Tired the Tuesday BC entry says that 4th cat isn't "ranked" - I assume this means ranking for the series and BC points for 1-10 are actually still available right?

Tired the Tuesday BC entry says that 4th cat isn't "ranked" - I assume this means ranking for the series and BC points for 1-10 are actually still available right?

Might be worth checking, most sub one hour 4th cat races don't carry points.

The 3/4 race on Tuesday is for cash prizes only. The [url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-bc-west-thames-4-e123/ ]E123 [/url]is for self-flagellation 😈 . If you race hard on Wednesday at the [url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/masters-series-race-2-at-hillingdon/ ]Masters [/url]race, you won't be racing on Thursday, trust me!

Sigh. At my level is there any point entering the Masters? 27mph!

Kryton have you no fast chaingangs of that speed to try instead of turning up to a race? My local chaingang averaged 27mph, I did two turns in 4 mins then died going uphill at that speed 😀 A month of this & it's getting easier.
Depends on what you want out of the race to answer your question...much harder to hang on in a crit at that speed than a road race but if you can work on a few things then it's not all bad.

I was racing today, proper torrential rain. Glad I was in the break as I couldn't see a thing!

these just popped up on facebook....

[img] [/img]

Legend - is that a 'bunp' for the evening crowd 😉

Or just the wrong thread?

Look, this is serious racing discussion, we don't need distraction 😉

Kryton have you no fast chaingangs of that speed to try instead of turning up to a race?

Our club has two chaingangs a week, but my work & family situation means I can't get to them.

So how's it going Kryton, any improvement?

I've alternated between getting pinged off the back at some events to hanging with the bunch and then after trying again to take all the advice and stick near the front, I got a 2nd in a 4th cat race last week. Got dropped and lapped at Horwich Festival of Racing on the town centre crit (cat 2/3/4), but then did another crit last night and got another 2nd - had to sprint to take 2nd on the line.

Can't believe its any great improvement in fitness, so whilst I have been doing chaingangs and intervals, I think I've just really been watching the moves, covering every break, working to be in the top 5 at hairpins and really trying to minimise the effort to keep with the bunch.

2/3/4 races looks like a somewhat more brutal proposition....

Kinda.

My work schedule and a move to Beastway MTB series means I only completed 2 crits since March. One at Hog Hill within which I hung on for half the race, the other at Cyclopark withing which I has a much better races hanging in with the second chasing group and work well together.

Since then though, my measurable performance has been going up (ftp), I've been contributing to rather than sitting in club rides and have completed the Chiltern 100 in the top 25%/6.30, bearing in mind I'm not a climber.

I've a couple of crits in mind from mid July to Sept so I guess I'll find out more about myself there, but I reckon next year is the "proper" start for me in terms of road racing, this year has been a voyage of discovery...

Sounds good, this year was pretty much an unknown for me too - I never would have believed that drafting / riding in a bunch could have so much benefit - having competed in mtb events and running races before now where its often not much more than an individual time trial.

I got my two results at the same circuit, and have consistently been binned off the back at another venue....but only recently realised this one is 3/4's and not just a 4th cat.

I think its helped (aside from reading this thread in detail!?) turning up most weeks to one crit or another because as well as getting to try and improve tactically with last week's race still in mind, you start to see the same riders and pick out the ones you think you can stay with.

I need to start seeing/measuring that fitness improvement that you're seeing cos thats what I think its now going to need....

Stick at it and report back!

I did my first crit race of the season (yes, I'm a late starter!) at Lancaster a few weeks ago, a 2/3/4 race. It's a circuit I know very well, used to live up there and raced it regularly.

Lovely evening, just the tiniest bit of wind. Never one to make life simple, I was using my singlespeed with it's 48/17 gear so it got very spinny above 30mph.

Anyway I stuck with the bunch just fine, stayed up in the top third of the race and had a brief dig off the front - I knew if I could get into a break it'd be alright but I had no chance in a bunch sprint with a gear that low. That didn't work out so with 3 laps to go I started drifting to the back so as not to get in the way of the sprint. With half a lap to go, everyone was looking at each other, some dickhead made a dive for a gap that didn't exist and bang, the entire middle of the bunch exploded. The front 20 got away to contest the finish, the middle 10 hit the deck and the 8 riders or so at the back all slammed on, I just managed to avoid it all. One poor girl broke her collarbone. 🙁

Apart from that, the racing was really good. Being on an SS forces you to look at the tactics rather than the brute force approach of so many riders. Also, it's amusing watching everyone get really wound up by the fact that someone on a SS can stay in the bunch. 🙂

Good luck with your summer crits Kryton, keep us posted!

Hey CrazyLegs - is that the track at Salt Ayre?

I can well imagine that some people would think you were trying to antagonise people rolling up on a singlespeed. I bet its quite good fun though.

Good to hear your results / improvement Mtbmoto well done.

I had a good time at Beastway on a long mtb course tonight - 1:20 ridden at race pace so definitely getting stronger. I need that pack race experience but time isnt on my side this year. It'll be interesting how my new fitness/form translates to the road crits. I will post up when done.

Well done all. My first crash was in a 234 race, going into the last lap. And racing on a SS on 48x17!!!? I can imagine 48x15 as I raced this at the Nocturn fixed. Chapeau indeed. I find spinning a far better acceleration strategy than honking. SS can only help with that.

I placed [url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-national-masters-circuit-champs-45-50/ ]15th in the National Masters[/url] and 21st/Lots in an E123 at Hillingdon yesterday, 5th of the 3rd Cats, which is probably my best finish. Slower than the ridiculous 28.8 mph average of two weeks ago 😯 . Working on my "bridging to a break" milestone, and it is a killer - spent two laps acting as a bridge yesterday after I bridged, died and fell off the back.

Kryton, I'm still hoping you can make it down to Hillingdon for the Tuesday 3/4 or the Wednesday E1234 Masters races. I will be racing there again next Wednesday. All welcome. The 3/4 looked [url= https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/107113/BC-West-Thames-10-(Edgware-RC)#results ]more competitive yesterday[/url].

I think its helped (aside from reading this thread in detail!?) turning up most weeks to one crit or another

Well done Tired. Still trying to get there by work is an issue - for instance I'm in Glasgow Monday and Tuesday next week. I favouring Beastway on Wednesday as I want to compete the series I have abetted Hillingon post 8th July

Yours ears must have been burning the other week as I bumped into (and went past 😉 ) some of yours at the Chiltern100. They knew of you as I asked if you were there on the day.

TiRed - good to know I'm not the only one struggling to bridge to a break. It doesn't seem to happen that much in the 4th cat or 3/4 races I've done, but even when someone sprints off the front I'm normally reliant on other riders keeping it together.

How do E123 races work out - whats the point in racing these as surely the Elites and 1st cat dominate by a considerable margin?

28.8mph? It was barely 22mph in the 4th cat on Tuesday night at Tameside. Some way to go to make the pace methinks!

Blimey mtbtomo, I need to come up your way. 22mph is the average 100k Sunday club ride here 😉

28.8mph? It was barely 22mph in the 4th cat on Tuesday night at Tameside. Some way to go to make the pace methinks!

Hillingdon is a very fast flowing course.
Tameside is much narrower and with lots of corners so much slower.

Fewer riders too at Tameside (I think the circuit limit is about half that of Hillingdon) which again makes it slower. More riders = faster.

FWIW the crit I mentioned above (and yes, it was the Salt Ayre track) averaged 27.8mph

Thanks all for posting updates - was following this with interest earlier in the year. I don't quite have the stones for bunch racing so will stick with TT'ing.

Bunch racing isn't that bad Graham. There is going to be the odd crash but you minimise this risk by holding your line, staying alert, shouting at riders who are riding dangerously or not paying attention and away from any riders who don't look like they are able to do the same etc. And once the race starts you don't have time to consider the risks....mind, the very first time you bump bars/shoulders etc with someone, it does seem a bit brown shorts time 😉

It might be more hairy with more riders around, but getting dropped of the back and it becomes just like a time trial!?

In E123 circuit races, the top ten places get the points. The rest of us make up the numbers and hope for top third (#4) 😉 . In the Winter Series there are separate points for the thirds in the one race. So a point gained in a pure E123 race is a very fine thing indeed.

Hillingdon is fast and flowing, as crazy says. You never get off the gas, even through the bends. The pace is fast but a lot of people sit in. I try not to because I know I won't improve and I am not a sprinter - hence the bridging and attacking. Groups do get away fairly often in higher categories. In 4th cat races they chase everything every time. The E's and 1's put the hammer down on every lap, so it is very good interval training. We lapped riders on Tuesday, and that is a first for me (normally I'm the one being lapped).

mtbmoto, you are progressing well. You've found that you are suited to some courses and not others, and two second places is promotion. Although 22 mph sounds slow, it's not about the average speed, but the standard deviation. Sharp corners will reduce the average and increase the variance. Hillingdon has low variance (unless the front decide to ease off for the final sprint laps). Well done.

Keep at it everyone. I've gone from commuting/mtb fitness to competitive 3rd Cat in two seasons and am racing people who've done it for years or are as young as my son. If I can, anyone can. But starting late means you have to put in the hours in the pack. There really is no substitute, I'm afraid.

Timely bump, short road race for me tonight. 40 miles, have been a bit slack lately (cancelled my TrainerRoad sub and not been on turbo in months, just too hot) so we'll see how it goes.

monkeyfudger - Member
Timely bump, short road race for me tonight. 40 miles, have been a bit slack lately (cancelled my TrainerRoad sub and not been on turbo in months, just too hot) so we'll see how it goes

Slacker 😉 I've been sweating buckets over mine, over a 20% imprvement in "Trainerroad" ftp to date this year. Which reminds me, despite the fact that my legs are aching from last night, I have Threshold session to complete today... 😕

I've gone from commuting/mtb fitness to competitive 3rd Cat in two seasons and am racing people who've done it for years

This is what is exactly what is spurring me on - wishing I'd started this when I was in my 20's (when I was more into my mtbing), but being thankful I've still got some time on the older guys....and competitive older guys at that...

This is what is exactly what is spurring me on - wishing I'd started this when I was in my 20's (when I was more into [s]my mtbing[/s]pissing my money up the wall), but being thankful I've still got some time on the older guys....and competitive older guys at that...

+1 I thought I'd be done by 50, but at 42 I seems I've another 20 years of competitive cycling to play at yet 😀

 

Which reminds me, despite the fact that my legs are aching from last night, I have Threshold session to complete today

Over-doing it. My hardest week was two weeks ago;
Sunday: Enduro Brass Monkey
Tuesday: E123 race
Thursday: Surrey League handicap road race
Sunday: Nocturn track bike crit
(With daily commuting 18 miles per day plus an extra 30 miles to and from the Tuesday race). I was not really competitive in the Thursday race.

For me "training" is:
Daily commute
Tuesday alternating race every other week with club ride
Wednesday alternating Masters race
Occasional Thursday Surrey League road race - tonight but I'm, missing it
Weekends: Saturday club ride 100km, or whatever race I fancy or track or mtb rides.

Can't abide the turbo, so prefer race training. Working 10 minutes from Hillingdon makes this pretty easy to be honest.

EDIT:

"but being thankful I've still got some time on the older guys"
Time is no respecter, believe me. Plenty of over 50 Elites and 1's to aspire to beat.

The Chiltern 100 in the top 25%/6.30

Over-doing it. My hardest week was two weeks ago;
Sunday: Enduro Brass Monkey
Tuesday: E123 race
Thursday: Surrey League handicap road race
Sunday: Nocturn track bike crit
(With daily commuting 18 miles per day plus an extra 30 miles to and from the Tuesday race). I was not really competitive in the Thursday race.

That's no more than I'm doing - 2 structured Turbo sessions against a plan and two rides a week plus or one of substituted for a crit. I travel around the country for work so am unable to commute.

Time is no respecter, believe me. Plenty of over 50 Elites and 1's to aspire to beat.

Thats exactly it, I know that age is no excuse for not going faster or being able to get faster. Glad I have a little time to see if I can get faster!