[Closed] How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

Come down to Hillingdon on Weds evenings for E1234 Masters racing. Starts April 16th at 6:45. Races are every other week (interspersed with a Club 10 TT).

First[url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-beyond-spring-crits-cat234-race2/ ] Cat3 race[/url] (well 234) last weekend. Managed Milestone 4 and was very pleased. As already mentioned above, Racecraft is everything when you have my (modest) fitness. Average speed was 26.6 mph. NP 274 Watts (for 70 minutes). I never got anywhere near the front at any point in the race. 😆

274 😯 How much do you weigh TiRed? (Cheeky ****er I know!)

I won my first ever race on Saturday thanks to my team mates controlling the bunch which allowed me to get away. By the time I was done, I'd been on my own for 33mins and came within 150m of lapping the field 8)

Raced a hilly RR the next day, got into a break on the climb but cramped the last time up it taking 10th.

Love racing bikes 😀

What was your actual power as well, presumably a chunk lower than your NP?

And well done DGOAB!

I was in that 234 race TiRed (4th cat).
Pace was very high wasn't it.
I somehow fought up the pack on the last lap then jumped away on the uphill to take 9th place (1st in the peloton)
Still pinching myself.

Ok, so second crit last night. Dropped again, lapped again. Pace seemed ok whilst in the bunch first few laps but then off the back and that was the end of it.

1 lap down in a 25min crit. So I'd imagine about 1km distance deficit in that time.

This talk about 'race craft'....where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group? It seems during the straights everyone else is nailing it to stay on the front, it all bunches up at the corner and then stretches out. Should I be fighting harder to stay mid/front pack on the straights - plus holding my position more agressively?

It just seems as the laps go on, I have less and less energy (compared to the others) to sprint out of the corners and the so caled elastic snaps. And this would happen irrespective of where in the group I am.

I don't doubt I could get a little fitter, but I can't believe I'm one of only a few in a 25 person race that is that far off the pace?

For those of you that got dropped first race, but stayed in contention on subsequent races - what conscious changes did you make?

This talk about 'race craft'....where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group?

Have a look around you in the bunch. Every time someone comes past you, you're losing a place. Repeat that a dozen times and you've gone from mid pack to the back. Once you're there, it's MUCH harder. All that bunching into and accelerating out of corners? You have to do 3 times the amount of work as the guys in the front 10. Harder braking into the corner, harder on the gas out of it and its just bloody knackering. As soon as you're near the back, you risk getting caught behind someone being dropped and having to fight your way round them to regain the back of the bunch.

Hold your position in the bunch at all costs. Move up the outside if you have to. Know where you can move up easily, know where you need to stick your elbows out to just hold station. If someone comes past you, make sure you go past someone else to hold yourself in that top third.

The only way you can get away with winning from the back is if you're very very good and experienced at reading a race and knowing the wheels to follow. And very fit.

I weigh 69 kilos - so 4 watts/kg. I only quote average because it was from my Powercal not my Stages. Average was [url= http://connect.garmin.com/activity/476118294 ]263W[/url]. [url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-beyond-spring-crits-234-race-3/ ]Last week[/url] was a new milestone - a proper crash!

Here is the new cat3 bike. It is as fast as it looks and now back to full fettle. Saved about 15 Watts over the Defy SL.

[img] [/img]

As crazy says, Racecraft is all about watching and countering accelerations, moving into gaps and generally defending position as the race comes to a close. Saving energy for a final push. The fastest don't always win and the slowest don't always come last. Ride the same course many times and you'll soon learn where you can pass riders and where the accelerations come. I've ridden at least 500 laps of Hillingdon.

For those of you that got dropped first race, but stayed in contention on subsequent races - what conscious changes did you make?

"If you aren't moving forwards your going backwards". Race craft is learned over many races, i think it took me at least a full season to learn it. Now I'm on my 3rd season its second nature but you can't switch off mentally for a second. The last few laps are crucial to your placing - come out of the corner in the top 10 and you'll get top 10 generally.

Soemtimes its easier to work / sit on the front and suffer and hold places than it is to be in the bunch and sprinting out of every corner. I generally stay in the top 10 wheels of the bunch if i can, anything further back than that means sprinting out of corners/wasting energy.

Thanks people, so if I understand this correctly expending the energy to stay at/near the front will be less energy than that trying to hang on at the back. And by a significant amount.

I have to say that effort-wise, I didn't seem to be redlining until I was off the back. Whilst I was still in the bunch, the speed seemed limited by the corners on the course to some extent. So I should be working much much harder at the beginning by the sounds of it.

Not going to give up at all, I've paid for another 3 and there's a few more inbetween the ones I've already paid for.

I'm not at all bothered yet about being top ten. First goal is not to get lapped, second stay with the bunch.

TiRed - bike looks ace!

Not going to give up at all, I've paid for another 3 and there's a few more inbetween the ones I've already paid for.

There is also a saying - If you are finding it hard, chances are so are the others. I though this was nonsense when I started because I was finding it VERY hard! But gradually I've seen it come to be true, particularly near the end of a race where the pace rises and people start to struggle.

It took me a whole season to learn to race and become competitive. There are no shortcuts (well none for us mortals). A team mate is now a very fast Cat2 after starting in October - but he spent a year training with the fast chaingang (and is young enough to be my son 😆 )

First race I stayed far in the top half dozen for the majority, tired on the last couple of laps but got home in 8th.

Next two I decided to hang back and maybe save a little energy for the finish but ended up dropping out the back and fighting to get back.

Best advise I've read was

"If you aren't moving forwards your going backwards"

Need to concentrate more...

cat3

3rd Cat - we are not American! Even if you are, you're still wrong ;).

I'm not sorry for pedantic!

This talk about 'race craft'....where exactly should I be breaking myself to stay with the group?

In a road race, I like to sit in wheels 8-12, maybe a bit further forwards if a move is looking like it might go. The minute or so I was further back than 12th wheel in both races I've done so far this year there was a crash, and I went down in both, effectively ending my race (bike too broken to continue). Stay near the front if you can. You're less likely to crash, slightly easier and you can react to attacks.

For Crits, it depends how technical the circuit is, usually wheels 4-10. Definitely not further back than 10th wheel though.

I've got an e/1/2/3 120km road race on Sunday, hoping to finish...

So, are road races on the open road such a crazy pace too?

Soemtimes its easier to work / sit on the front and suffer and hold places than it is to be in the bunch and sprinting out of every corner. I generally stay in the top 10 wheels of the bunch if i can, anything further back than that means sprinting out of corners/wasting energy.

I keep on or near the front. I find it far less stressful, and being a worker doesn't go un noticed and gets you a wheel unlike the too and fro'ing at the back. You also get to know the hard parts of the course being on the front, then later you can let the shirkers have a pop and watch them die yards into the headwind.
Better to go for it and lose and learn than to always play the safe game.

Mtbtomo - if it help you're not the only one - 3rd race in and I'm staying in more laps though - by being bossy and fighting for my place as described.

Tired - we've talked - can anyone enter thee masters race? I can't do Tuesdays but I could do Wednesdays swapping for the ELV summer series?

Bike looks good TiRed! Nice write up as always.

@mtbtomo

If you do some Strava snooping you can see what the open road race average speeds are.

Masters races are E123[b]4[/b], so yes you can enter. I raced them all last summer and they brought my fitness, handling and race skills on so much more than 4th Cat# 😉 . First one starts 6:45 this Wednesday evening. Sign on is on the night at the clubhouse in Hillingdon. I shall be racing the above machine. Can't wait! The hole in my leg should have healed a bit more too.

#I'm not American.

Thanks Kryton - good to know not everyone goes from 'zero to hero' after a just one or two races!

I may try to get there Tired. I wasnt't sure what was meant in categorised / qualification by "masters".

The above posts are making me nervous for my 4th race - a 90k 4th's road race next weekend.

Involved in my first crash on Saturday, bike too broken to continue. Gutted, an expensive 20min race and can see my 1st cat licence goal slipping away already as no race bike no so missing more races. 🙁

Would agree with the comment that if you are finding it hard in a race then everyone else will be - i didn't believe this when i first started racing but the more races i did the more i learned this - to start with its a case of holding that max effort as long as you can to hold on but if you can hold on, then the does eventually ease up and you'll be fine. You only get better at racing by racing lots too.

Kryton, RRs are much different to crits, esp if a break has gone and stuck - the bunch will cruise along until its near the finish if that's the case. If you can't climb, get on the front of the bunch for every climb so you've wheels to fall back on otherwise you'll be out the back on the first climb. Less sprinting (unless you are at the back coming out of corners)

Bugger! What's up with the bike?

deep section wheel has broken spokes with poss damage to the deep section bit and is buckled i think. rear drop out is bent, mech hanger ripped off and bits of the screw are stuck in the frame too. think it can be repaired but i'm meant to be at a stage race at the weekend and don't fancy it on my winter bike! not a mark on me as i held it up right until i could unclip and get my foot down...the worst bit is the chopper fell off going uphill...i mean really, how hard is it to keep pedalling going uphill?! it was on closed roads too, no excuses for it!

Bad luck DGOAB, not good news at all.

Well, I've been declined from the RR on Sunday so I need to find some thing else to do...

OP, if you want a guide to how a guy went from beginner to Cat1 then here is a blog from Rob Sharland of Kingston Wheelers.

http://firstseasonracing.com/

*reads thread with interest*

Got my first ever road race at the end of June. No idea what the course is going to be like or the field.

Done 2 road races this year. First proper ones.

First one was an E/1/2/3/4 pursuit. I worked to stay away but not enough help and we were caught just under half way. Rode off the front up a hill (suprised myself as well as the guys on the front) and the ensuing chaos/counter attack saw the winning break go clear. Rode home for a mid table finish - not bad considering the standard.

Rode on Sunday. 3/4. Thought a break was going to stick and so tried to bridge. Got caught in no man's land and it all came back together a couple of minutes later. Sat in for a bit to recover then felt pretty happy. Half way round the last lap I went for it on a solo break like a Frenchmen on Bastille day. Got caught just before the final corner. I'd thrown everything into it and the bunch were winding up for a sprint finish so I went straight out the back and rolled in last 🙂

I feel strong but my tactics and race craft are lacking coming from a mtb and cx background. It is all brute force and ignorance at the minute. Still I'm enjoying the racing and much prefer to make it a race rather than sit in and try to pick up the odd point.

Worth noting that Rob of KW is a machine!

Kryton - you got declined for the road race? How does that work??

Kryton - you got declined for the road race? How does that work??

A lot of road races work on an organiser managed field, especially if they're going to be be oversubscribed.

About 3 weeks or so before the race, entries close and the organiser picks the field based on whatever criteria he has going - could be rankings, points, category, preference to local clubs/juniors, you name it.

So it's not uncommon for a 4th cat to be declined for road races if the organiser is picking all the 2nd cats first, then all the 3rds, then the 4ths.

Well had my first road race today, the week didn't quite go to plan seeing as I've had the shits all week and haven't eaten! Normal ish poo yesterday so thought I'd get stuck in, smashed a load of gels this morning and gave it my best. Got dropped on the last lap after my legs decided I was taking the piss asking for another lap and shut down, think I ended up 22nd. Riding out to the start from HQ I could tell I was in for a hiding, mouth was insanely dry! Getting lost on the way back to HQ after the race was particularly delicious...

Congratulations. Your body tells you when you are having a larf, doesn't it?

I rode out 15 miles to a road race on Thursday evening. Arrived an hour early and still didn't get a number as it was sold out despite entry only on the line 🙁 I was 62/60. So rode the reverse course cheering on the team.

Tired - ygm. Despite an insignificant result I had a good day today, finally after 5 crits making me feel like all the training and learning is starting to pay off. pB's across the board....

Mtbtomo - despite being on an affiliated club their over subscription rule was to use BC point shighest to lowest as a ranking to award places to riders. I don't have any points yet hence I was at the bottom of the list...

Ah....have to say I have now come across this, having entered a few other races where it asks if you'd be happy to be a reserve.

Done a few more crits since my last post.

Hung with the group today, but the course suited me, no hairpin bends so no crazy-ass accelerations every lap.

Finished in the bunch, so that's a result to me! Partly missed the sprint cos I couldn't remember if the bell meant "last lap" or "10 to go". Oohps.

At least its better than Wednesday where I turned up without my entry fee and only realised at the last minute. What a wally!

Finished in the bunch, so that's a result to me! Partly missed the sprint cos I couldn't remember if the bell meant "last lap" or "10 to go". Oohps.

I was once in a road race where coming to the end of lap 6 of 7 about 6 people sprinted for the line like crazy and the first of them crossed the line arms in the air only to be greeted by the sound of the bell for the last lap .It is surprisingly easy to forget how many laps you have done when there are a lot of other distractions going on and I very nearly joined that sprint thinking my lap counting might have been wrong and I just hadn't heard the bell .

Yeh i stupidly went for the sprint on thursday night with 1 lap to go. I much prefer longer circuits where you don't need to think about laps etc. I'm forever asking my teamies how many laps we've done - all i'm ever thinking about / concentrating on is moving up/positioning etc.

I remember my first crit (town centre), all the blooming bells and whistles and NEG bikes coming past - i had no idea what was going on! 🙂

Seem to have lost my race mojo, not remotely interested in racing atm and got to decide if i want to race the Tour Series asap 😐

Blowing my own trumpet somewhat but using lots of the advice in this thread I managed to get my third cat after winning at Mallory Park on Tuesday. Many thanks to everyone who posted up!

http://www.paleoracing.co.uk/index.php?itemid=122

Yep, I've been following this one, trying to spot the mere mortals amongst the "yep, first time out and I pedalled off the front to victory" 😉

Good stuff Schmiken! How long you been doing it?

A win is a win! Congratulations Mike, nice report. And finishing in the bunch is where it starts mtb, well done too. I still haven't "won", but personal goals are what matters. When racing with the ladies, their laps count down earlier, and you aren't the first to miscount or mis-hear the bell.

Last race I was in finished early with three laps called not five due to light.

Itching for racing and hoping for a short blast on the Gorrick 100 (3 laps if I can get there in time).

It was only my second ever road race, but as my wife keeps reminding me I'm sandbagging somewhat! I've been racing MTBs for about four years now and got my Expert category upgrade at the start of this year.

Rode my first proper E123 race last night. 4th Cat has a lot going for it! Average speed was 28 mph 😯 and 297 watts as a first for me. I managed to hang with the main bunch, having missed the break, and sprinted for a top third overall.

On the positive side, if anyone fancies a good beginners race, there is a development BC Thames 3/4th Cat race (without points) every Tuesday evening at Hillingdon at 7PM. The absence of points makes it a better opportunity to find your racing legs than some races, whilst keeping a pace of 24-25 mph. I'd recommend it and know some of the 3rds in the race who help keep it tidy.

Jonba - chapeau! That's the way to race, win or bust. To continue the kamikaze Frenchman theme, more amateurs could take a leaf out of M. Jacky Durand's book. I love this quote of his:
“I’d rather finish shattered and last having attacked a hundred times than finish 25th without having tried.”
It might not work most of the time but it's bloody amazing when it does.

Tired how long do those Tuesdays go on for?