[Closed] How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

As above, started at 45. First season was learning the racecraft. Second season is competing. Aim for consistent top third placings and practice sprinting. Cat 4 in London is a lot more competitive than many realise. You won't get out of Cat 4 without a sprint. Which makes any points I win so much more precious for this 69 kilo climber/domestique 😉

Kryton57 - Member

Dales Rider, did you do yours after 3hrs of Sprint intervals on hills too or didn't you read that far?

No rode about 7 miles to warm up. At my age its a fine line between warming up and wearing out. Also its the same with the cross racing 50 minutes racing 6 minutes warm up. I'll never make the podium, well maybe never, so its just about enjoyment. That said I nearly got 1st place a few weeks ago till they realised I was entered in the wrong Cat I had to go up into the "fast lads" class

You won't get out of Cat 4 without a sprint.

Can see this being very frustrating for those with a reasonably decent engine but not much of a sprint (i.e. me!)

Cat 4 [s]in London is a lot more competitive than many realise[/s] is full of people without much tactical awareness, who will chase down any breakaway whilst dragging the entire bunch with them. You won't get out of Cat 4 without a sprint

FTFY

how do I continue to train without killing myself.

I can't remember if i have said this before, but it apparently takes 3 seasons to be "good" at racing...i think its a combination of getting a good base, top end and experience. My 2nd season was a lot better than my first, 108 BC points / 25th 2nd cat in the UK but some way off my goal of getting my 1st cat as i had to take some time out of racing after getting Lymes disease, but i was able to race pros and full time riders by the end of the season without getting my arse handed to me on a plate. It takes time, patience, hard work (some nights i can't decide if i want to be sick or cry or both on the turbo), consistency and knowing WHAT to do in training otherwise its just a waste of time. It doesn't matter how fast you can ride solo for road racing, you just need the tactics, ability to suffer and instinct about where to ride in the bunch/moves to go with but this doesn't come over night. Or be a great tester and ride of the front to win 🙂

Don't underestimate base fitness - before i started racing i had no base but worked hard on getting one in 2012-13 and it made a massive difference to my racing and training.

I have altered my plans DG. I've ditched the next three weeks of cat 4 racing for weekend base work (for example, a relaxed Reliability ride on Sunday) and change my intervals/short rides to Tempo withs some short sprints / Russians thrown in.

I'm going to race as cat 4 at Gravesend late Feb as a measure and trial hanging with the group (in know my circuit PB) then back on the Threshold & sprints during the week with weekend club rides before LVRC starts on a March 16.

I've woken up to the fact that this is a learning year, and the best I can do is ride to improve my base, threshold and power in a manner that fits into my circumstances.

It could be of course, that I'm not designed to be a bike racer, not all of us are so ill just enjoy it at my own pace without stressing about my results, and if something noteworthy happens, that'd be nice 🙂

Which RT are you riding?

Old Portlians 100k.

Don't know that one, hope the wind is calmer than it is today though because that was a bloody grim couple of hours.
Bedford or Hemel RT for me, which ever is wind free!

Ah this is North Kent (knock holt) south to Crowborough and back. The wind will be on our backs on the way back, and we're riding as a club so well all be able to rest in from time to time.

Ok, so I've lined myself up a local crit in March....

What's the etiquette on mechanical failures or punctures when riding in a bunch? Are there any calls that I need to know, aside from trying to exit the bunch safely?

Assuming I'll even be with the bunch....

Ever the optimist eh!?

When I've flatted in a bunch I put my hand up and called 'puncture', then just eased off, people drift round you.

Thanks Njee, that's what I thought would be sensible but just checking.

I don't want to upset any of these serious cat 4 racers 😉

You'll possibly be allowed a lap out for a mechanical, so jump on your spare bike (you do have a spare, right?) and the commissaire will feed you back in.

In reality I'm not sure how that works out, in my limited experience I only have to switch off for a second or two then I'm off the back with and struggling to close the gap!

[url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-apres-wacky-races-cat4-race2/ ]Cat4 no more.[/url]

There's a development race at Hillingdon this Saturday, if anyone fancies it.

Well done. Any full results about? Just watching with interest how some people are doing.

In reality I'm not sure how that works out, in my limited experience I only have to switch off for a second or two then I'm off the back with and struggling to close the gap!

You roll along out of the way as if you were being lapped. Then you leap on the back, not into the bunch.

Well done Tired. The most telling piece of your write up for me was [i]"this was my 35th race"[/i]. I've a way to go, after having a horrible day in an LVRC race yesterday.

I went into it knowing nothing, and therefore not realising I'd be racing with veteran Elites. My interval training was going well, but last weekend I'd had a bed ridden throat virus, not riding until Wednesday and feeling light headed after a ride. I thought I could get away with it.

I warmed up for 20 mins pre race feeling conscious I was the only one doing so. Sat on the start, flag went down, clipped in and... BANG. A searing pain from my left quad. I rode for three laps in pain, got dropped on the second then before starting the 4th DNF'd to prevent further injury.

Having ridden for 11 minutes I felt pretty low driving home tbh, and in what is only my 2nd race need to leave it behind, get well and start again. 🙁

LVRC, yep lots of Elites/1st/2nd's in that lot.

I spent all last summer racing E1234 at Hillingdon (Wednesday evenings after work). It's a great place to learn how to handle a bike. Smooth fast riding on a predictable course. They don't do crashing. I'm sure LVRC is no different. Every race was won by an Elite rider, but over the course of 12 races I went from back of the pack to mid/top third (and a BC point!). And aiming for top third in ANY race would be the limit of my expectations. Anything else is a bonus.

Keep at it. I warmed up because I was conscious of a three a man group putting the hammer down when I wasn't warm the week before, and I just couldn't bridge to them. I don't normally bother, just spin around the circuit for a few laps.

The result at Brighton can be confusing. If you go off the front and rejoin the pack you win! No sprint required But if three go off the front, and rejoin the back, then there seems to be a sprint for position 123. I did better last week than I thought because I was overtaken in the sprint by someone contesting 123. Results are all listed on the BC website, but Brighton often take a while to decode the photo finish.

New bike time! (Propel Advanced frame) 😀

Nice one Tired.

I warmed up for 20 mins pre race feeling conscious I was the only one doing so

Ignore the others, put ipod on and zone out.

As for the rest, chin up. Racing is mentally tough, maybe even more so than physically tough. I had a bad race last Saturday, an attack went, i went to go with it, legs just didn't work and my injuries complained a lot, I missed the break, spent 20mins on my own and then got caught with 3 laps to go!! I'm struggling with 7 months of injury and rehab which has reduced my power a lot, i have some dark days when i wonder if its all worth it, knowing i'm way off form and yet racing week in week out. Woke up the next day for a RR. Didn't know if i could even face racing after such a bad performance the day before but went onto have a great race, slightly mucking up the sprint finish but got 4th, just pipped for 3rd by literally nothing. Good days, bad days, happens to everyone. Good thing about RR is there's always another one next week. 🙂

Thanks Dg and Tired. The last few days go have put things into perspective. Turns out I was racing against Bob Downs! No chance!

Bob Downs! No chance!

Was that the Baines RR? Missed it this year. Rode it last year against Bob and in the snow, racing is potty.
How old are you then if you're in Bobs age band.

Hey Kryton....just done my first crit this morning. Probably fitter than I've ever been, been on some long group rides, turbo sessions etc etc.....

And ping, straight off the back 2nd or 3rd lap. Got lapped twice (maybe three times?).

But it was a good experience and I'll be doing a few more. A long long way to go to hang with the bunch but its a good excuse for "needing" more fancy kit 😉

Demoralized??? Not a chance!

Where was that mtbtomo?

Without having read back through all the pages.... Are all the races you are doing crits? Might be worth looking at some road races, even in cat 3-4 they are a lot calmer affairs as they're 2.5 hours ish in general and not an hour of mayhem. Not so many tight turns and corners.

I got all my points in crit races, but would get my backside handed to me more often than not. I much preferred road races though.

Oldgit - it was at the Tameside circuit in East Manchester.

Didn't need to worry about being able to ride in a bunch cos after a few laps I was mostly on my own 😉

Well done mtbmoto. Here are my 10 milestones:

1. Buy a race license and enter a race (this IS the biggie)
2. Not get dropped (took me a few races)
3. Finish mid pack (needs skill not fitness)
4. Finish top third (Yes!!! I'm a "racer")
5. Work on the front (actual training required)
6. Contest the sprint (try not to lose position)
7. Bridge to a break (more training)
8. Attack (You have to be able to do something in the race)
9. Contest the points (Cat 3 here I come!)
10. Win! (Hmmm, still working on this one)

Step 1. is the hardest. You'll soon be at number 3.

I went 1 then 4, dropped in my next two...

Oldgit - it was at the Tameside circuit in East Manchester.

Tameside is all about technique, especially on that lower tight corner. First race I did there I was lapped. Second race I stayed in the bunch. Third race I won. 🙂

That was the 2/3/4 race though so possibly a bit calmer than the 4th cat only affairs. It takes a couple of goes to learn the circuit; its incredibly grippy even in the wet so you just need to learn positioning, how hard you can sling it into the bends and when you can start to pedal out of them. Commonest cause of crashes there is riders clipping pedals as they start to crank out of the bends too early.

Thanks TiRed! Looks like a good list to go at! I've got a couple more in the calendar to see if I can improve.

I have to say its a big leap of faith to believe that a bit more experience and improving skills is going make as much difference as being fitter but we'll see!

Every bit of me was hurting out there today after the first few laps.

How is 2/3/4 calmer? Surely the 2nd cat lads are another step up in terms of fitness?

It's great when every race starts from #5

I have a trademark move that'll take about 13 riders off the main field. As you tend to race the same guys week in week out they always let me back in. One of the guys always says 'here come the Belgians' that's who I ride for.
Anyway people always bang on about never doing any work, but you need to, you need to know what it feels like to pop out and have several guys breathing down your neck. You even need a turn just to see what the winds doing, which you'll never know if you sit in.
Winning feels pretty good 8)
Better to turn up and race than to turn up and ride.

How is 2/3/4 calmer? Surely the 2nd cat lads are another step up in terms of fitness?

Generally, most of the 4ths go into the 4th only race so it's mostly a 2/3 in reality (I'm a 3rd Cat). By that point, most of the riders have some degree of "track skill" and tactics and the circuit itself is the limiting factor in terms of speed - believe it or not the race is not significantly faster but in terms of how steady the pace is, it's more controlled. Fewer suicide attacks, bit more in the way of tactics. It's nothing to do with fitness, it's solely knowing the circuit and a bit of race craft.

Honestly, don't give up on it, you did well for your first race. The improvements will come rapidly there so stick with it.

Milestone 5. was really the point where you start to feel like you are competitive. Mixing it up, working, bridging, even blocking for a team member. All good fun. I led out a team mate for a sprint to get enough points for promotion at the end of last season. That surprised a few of the bunch 😆 . It's not just points chasing.

My E1234 masters races are a lot faster and a lot smoother than my Cat 4 races. It's easier to sit in because you don't have to cover the brakes. But the standard of Cat 4 can be pretty high, regardless of what some might say. Can, but not always. Hillingdon (clockwise) today was a bit rough by all accounts, but no crashes. I think it will be reversed next week - much better.

Speaking to a couple of newish club members. Seems they turned up at a local crit to race.
Whilst BC promote the whole licence thing, none of them had a clue what to do or expect, from knowing where to pin their numbers to who and which way they were racing. None finished.
That might explain some of the bizarre accidents I've seen. I mean you can give a bloke some cash and race even if you've never ridden a bike in your life.
However it's already much better. The Wiggo effect I reckon.

BTW when did they stop scrutinising bikes?

I think they scrutinised one of the young lads bikes yesterday -under 18 maybe?

Under 18s ride on a gear restriction by age group and should be measured before races. They do tend to have a quick glance through the bunch at Hillingdon for QR angles etc before setting off. But they missed a guy with full mudguards on one of my races.

Asking if it's anyone's first race before the start is always a good indication of how it will go. New riders range from keen to ride well and listen, through to no clue and give a wide birth. Sadly a club jersey is no provenance for this distinction. But I have ridden with some shockers!

At Brighton the Cat4s have a commissaire riding at the back of the pack. It's an excellent idea and should be more widely adopted.

I also think BC should change the rules for promotion: 10 races and N points, where N could be anything from 3-12. But 10 races is required to go from a beginners 5 to a Cat 4 in the US. There are plenty of very good riders in Cat 4 in London who will struggle to get 12 points in a season. And may others who enjoy racing at that level.

Going to get my first BC licence since the mid 90's (been LVRC since) Can't see me getting a 3rd cat unless I do 4ths only, which isn't going to happen in 1/2/3/4 races.

TiRed, to add to the above I'm quite convinced that for some getting their 3rd is more important than the racing.
Some of our guys were blatantly pot hunting for 3rd in 4th only 30 minute races and with as little as 12 riders in attendance you'll almost get a 3rd by default from just turning up for a few weeks. They'll be 3rd cats for the rest of their lives. I was a 2nd cat but I'll be a 4th for the rest of mine.

Just received my first race licence, first race 5 weeks today! Been riding with a good bunch who are pointing me in the right direction but still feel like I've got a lot to learn, bloody nervous! Oldgit, you've just made me realise I never actually thought about where or how I'd pin a number on on the day...

🙂 Just ask, It'll just depend on which way your going round so the marshalls can see, simple as that.

Did my first road race today (SERRL Brenchley).
Gosh that hurt! 50 miles at 22.6mph av.
Managed about 20th.

Lot's to learn.

you should get a 3rd cat license oldgit. Once you get above 4th cat you can't go back again.

The standard of 4th cat is excellent, in my experience, and they are not races to be taken lightly. I finished about 15th in my first race (Out of 20 ish?) last year and it shocked me. I've trained hard this winter and last race I got plagued by punctures and had to drop out, and today was involved in a pretty nasty crash. My main complaint about 4th's is that anyone with a BC license can race, and that includes people who have never ridden in a group. People make mistakes, but to someone who has no idea how to draft, and the effects of tapping the brakes, it's devastating. Todays price of a less educated rider going down in front of me: £1500 in bike repairs and some damaged body bits.

The standard in 3rds is far better because it requires you to be consistent and have ridden with a group before. 4th's to me is just getting more dangerous.

Looking back over the entrants the level of newcomer drops come summertime, late May and on.
Even my old clubs new guys raced from December, come June they'd given up.
Suits me, I hate winter road racing in the UK. Cross on the other hand.