[Closed] How do you ride off drops?

@Tom- the real problem was nothing to do with where his weight was- it was when it got there. He moved back (and down) right back on the woodwork and rode off the edge like a statue so there was no push/weight transfer at all.

All credit to him though, he rode off down the hill despite being completely ****ed.

Who bothers to manual off drops at any half decent speed? That's a proper point and shoot drop if I ever saw one.

anyone who can manual Tom.
and anyone who can manual well can save a dropped front wheel when being a fanny

Never had to manual a fastish drop as I've never approached one that I've commited to on the brakes 😛

This'll do...

Never had to manual a fastish drop as I've never approached one that I've commited to on the brakes

I can't comprehend why you'd attempt to manual a drop on anything except really slow stuff.

I mean, even this is slow...and big to boot and the rider only puts in the smallest of input

There's nothing like the huge amounts of body english some of you are talking about doing.

mtbel
if you can't manual. I wouldn't necessarily expect you to understand just how far back you can get your weight. if you can manual well. you should be able to hold your front wheel an inch from the ground while rolling. think about how far back your centre of gravity has to be to hold this.

The difference is between being dynamically balance and being statically balanced. Because your mass is so much more than that of your bike, you can use pumping to unweight the bike transiently (the average weight is unchanged, but you make it "heavy" for a bit by pumping the bike into the ground so that when it (and you) rebounds, it's "light" for a bit). At some speed, the time you need to complete the maneouver becomes too long for any sensible transient unweighting, and at this point, you must actually centre your combined CofG directly over the rear wheel contact patch. However, again, unless you are Mr Tickle, to do this you will effectively have to shorten the wheel base of your bike, by pushing though with your heals, poping the bike upwards into the classic manual position (also used by trails riders for any time they need to stay balanced on the back wheel).

Have a look at the angle of a normal sized MTB needed to do this (you can't do it by just moving backwards, unless your bike is comically too small for you (ie a BMX as in the vid up there^^^ 😉

[img] [/img]

That^^^ is the sort of angle you need to get your combined CofG over the rear wheel centre!

What Max says, who clearly has a better technical understanding of bike dynamics than me.

I wouldn't attempt. I'd achieve.

I personally find it easier to control the bikes dip in the air from a manual which helps allow me to land more smoothly (especially when dropping using a hardtail or BMX)

Pointless, even if you can do it, you should try and stay as central in the bike as you can get away with during any given situation.

Tom I think you are confusing Max using a lot of impressive words with having a good understanding of bike dynamics.
Max is wrong on a couple of points:
firstly, as I said before, think about how far back your weight has to be to manual with your front wheel only an inch from the ground?
secondly, I can lift the front of my hardtail by simply rotating my weight rearwards (as above) and a slight push from my feet. no front wheel pump required whatsoever.
Your high front wheel manual pic is a really poor example of how far back you can move your weight.

now you are making up rules for no actual reason Tom.

I spent years around the downhill races as my brother was a sponsored rider mtbel, I've never once met or ridden with anyone who bothers to manual downhill style drops.

slight push from my feet.

That's part of a normal pumping technique! It's still not manualing off a damn drop!

mtbel
Tom I think you are confusing Max using a lot of impressive words for a good understanding of bike dynamics.
Max is wrong on a couple of points:
firstly, as I said before, think about how far back your weight has to be to manual with your front wheel only an inch from the ground?

Is this you mtbel?

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20090826034652[/img]

😉

More seriously, on a proper, full sized mountain bike, unless you've got your stem on backwards, or are wearing a backpack full of concrete, there's no way you're going to be able to hold a permanent flat land manual with the front wheel just 1" above the ground.

(you can on a bmx, because the bike is so much smaller)

I've never once met or ridden with anyone who bothers to manual downhill style drops.

That's part of a normal pumping technique!

More seriously, on a proper, full sized mountain bike, unless you've got your stem on backwards, or are wearing a backpack full of concrete, there's no way you're going to be able to hold a permanent flat land manual with the front wheel just 1" above the ground.

Seriously!

You amuse me greatly.

but you make it "heavy" for a bit by pumping the bike into the ground so that when it (and you) rebounds, it's "light" for a bit)

I've decided you're a troll.

This thread smells of AWESOME.

Hopefully you haven't given up on this thread Soap 🙁

Trying to teach the other half something I can do without thinking.
Anything that I'm missing?
Compress front suspension at lip >
As front wheel goes off move body weight back >
Straitening arms until back wheel rolls off.
How did you learn?

Skills course? Not saying you're a rubbish teacher!! Sometimes its just better getting that input from someone you don't know and practicing without the audience.

My other half went on a dirt divas jumps and drops course, got a lot out of a female only skills course. Something to consider anyway.

They are on facebook and have a [url= http://www.dirtdivas.co.uk/ ]website[/url] but I'm sure there are others too.

Most of this second page is bs but the supermarket trolley might be a good shout.
We always try and find a scoopy rock/drop to session but it's just one element of the technique that's missing.
Maybe a session with Katy Kard over FoD might be worth it.

back to kerbs.
Try getting her to wheelie off a kerb with emphasis on going off flat to land with both wheels at the same time not mega high wheelies kids with carrier bags on their seats do.
Wheelieing isn't the important bit at all but at the slow speed she's comfortable with it's the only way to stop the front dropping and should automatically make her push the front out and force the bike to stay level using her feet to push aswell.
wheelieing is harder but your up against her psychological fear so don't tell her it's harder untill after she can land both wheels flat and is comfortable going fast enough to not need to wheelie and can just push out.

Maybe a session with Katy Kard over FoD might be worth it.

MrsDummy went on a women only skills day. They learnt a bit, but they seem to have spent most of the time bonding over just how much they all hated being coached by their partners. It was apparently the common theme, from peope like MrsD who could barely ride a bike up to people wondering if they could safely do the Megavalanche.

Mrs SOAP may be the exception, of course. But a skills course seems to be very important for women in a way that it isn't necessarily for men.

🙂

on a proper, full sized mountain bike, unless you've got your stem on backwards, or are wearing a backpack full of concrete, there's no way you're going to be able to hold a permanent flat land manual with the front wheel just 1" above the ground.

Depends what you mean by 'permanent'. If you mean forever then you're correct. If you mean a few dozen metres then with a bit of practice it's very possible (I [i]do[/i] have long arms but then i have long legs too, what with me being long and all - see fig. 1.).

Fig. 1. Long limbs lean longer and lower

[img] [/img]
It's on a wall ridey berm thing but it's the same technique on the flat, on a bit more harder 😉

Manuals are useful for riding off sketchey tree root drops, like this one in swinley forest next to the mod area.

[img] [/img]

trying to tell your partner how to do stuff is not the easiest. As you can soon become a know it all.
Here's a vid of her at BPW.

No trolley action going on.

mtbel - Member

I wouldn't attempt. I'd achieve.

I want this on a motivational poster for the office. Preferably with a picture of someone (Yoda, maybe?) hucking off a huge cliff on a child's bike. Can any of the photoshop gurus oblige? [mourns the absence of Jamie]

Here's a vid of her at BPW.

Does she know you uploaded it in the "comedy" category?

Im in the Jeremy Clarkson school of thought.

SPEEEEEEED

[img] ?0[/img]

I've often wondered why we spend so much time on here talking about kit and so little on how to ride, but I think I get it now. Any discussion between blokes about skill/prowess quickly descends into a willy waving contest.

So here's my take 🙂

Technically there isn't much too it. All you need to do is stop the front wheel from falling too far before the back wheel leaves the lip. You've can do this in two ways; lots of speed (so it doesn't have time to drop) or some active movement to hold it up for a while. In practice you tend to do a bit of both and the slower you go the more active you need to be.

Now we can (and no doubt will) spend all day arguing about exactly how one has to move in order to stop the front wheel dropping, but that's not the point. If you are having to think about how to hold the wheel up then you really shouldn't be riding off any drop that could hurt if you get it wrong. If you do then odds are that you'll just freeze at the last moment and end up in hospital.

Like lots of things in mountain biking (and life) whether you think you can or think you can't you are right. So keep practicing those wheel lifts in situations where it doesn't matter (puddles, sticks etc) until you are totally confident that you can hold the front up for a bike length at any speed, then just go play on some drops. But, whatever you do, don't ride anything that you don't want to ride. Life is too short to spend much of it in rehab.

+1 Roverpig, it only took until page 3 to get some proper advice!

In reference to wysiwyg's picture, clearly no butt over the back wheel stance on the guy who to all intents and purposes clearly looks like he knows what he is up to, certainly more than most of us.

My previous comment still stands rather than keyboard warriors like us lot, the best approach is to go to someone who teaches this day in day out in an environment where you can progress from gentle drops to larger ones. You know it makes the most sense 🙂

In reference to wysiwyg's picture, clearly no butt over the back wheel stance on the guy who to all intents and purposes clearly looks like he knows what he is up to, certainly more than most of us.

Dude be [i]stylin[/i] bro!!!
Ahem.
I'd wager that bike gets pushed out in front a little before he lands.

That's how I look at it; the bike gets pushed out in front of me at the lip, I catch up with it in the air then place my front wheel in front of me on the ground. Most of the time....

[img] [/img]

in at the deep end....

[img] [/img]

Might be more an courage wolf, that.

[URL= http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/60400794_zpsuqk5scar.jp g" target="_blank">http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/60400794_zpsuqk5scar.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

...then have pudding...

mtbel doesn't ride off drops, the earth drops away from him.

Euro

Depends what you mean by 'permanent'. If you mean forever then you're correct. If you mean a few dozen metres then with a bit of practice it's very possible (I do have long arms but then i have long legs too, what with me being long and all - see fig. 1.).

Again, the difference between moving your mass dynamically and statically.

As i have shown a normal sized mountain bike is simply too big to statically completely unweight the front wheel (ie to keep the front wheel off the floor continuously) You can easily try this yourself next time you ride your bike. Roll along at a nice stable low speed, say just above warking pace. Drop your seat out the way, and slwoly push yourself off the back off the bike as much as you can. Completely straight arms and legs, rub the back of the back tyre with your groin!

And what happens when you do this? Nothing. Because the mass of your arms and legs is still forwards, and the bikes own CofG is between it's axles, the fork extends a bit, but the front wheel doesn't leave the ground.

If you have a BMX, repeat the test. This time, because the bike is a lot smaller compared to you, the front wheel does leave the ground (probably leaving you sat on your ass behind it 😉

So, to permanently flat land manual a full sized mountain bike, you DO need to shorten the wheelbase by tilting the bike upwards, as in the pics i posted on page 2. Luckily, to do this, you can use your INERTIA (not your mass) to help. By pushing forward and through with your heals, the lighter bike moves forward, and you bodies inertia means you don't move backwards as quickly. if at the same time you pump the front of the bike (again, using your inertia (effectively your dynamic mass) downwards and let it rebound, then up you go into a "tall" manual. With the bike angled up, and acting as one side of the triangle, you have effectively shortened it's wheelbase and seatstay length, meaning you can get your combined CofG over the rear wheel contact patch.

Also critical to note is that by rotating with the bike, with straight arms, you have concentrated your mass into the vertical plane, as you back becomes perpendicular to the ground. As such, this means you have a great ability to move your CofG forwards and rearwards to control the balance point by extending / shortening your LEGS (not your arms!)

SOAP
trying to tell your partner how to do stuff is not the easiest. As you can soon become a know it all.
Here's a vid of her at BPW.

No trolley action going on.

You know what, with just a little pump/push before the lip of those drops, she'd be smashing those! 😉 You can see the front drop and the rear kick a bit which leaves her a little unbalanced on landing, but at the speed she's going, it would only take a tiny pump to get her into a perfect trajectory off those!

Because those drops are small, and the landing basically flat, she doesn't need at do any great exaggerated movement or hang off the back or whatever.

I like the simple "pump the front wheel over a stick" (copyright Jedi!) exercise, as that's all she would need to be nailing that bit of trail 😉

As i have shown

You are correct that a longer wheelbase makes the move slightly more difficult but as we don't all ride around on bikes with Steve Jones/Chris Porter approved battleship wheelbases (yet? 🙄 ) it is still possible on an mtb.

You can type as much theory on the subject as you want but the Fact here is that I can manage it just fine on all my MTBs. All 7 bikes are 26" wheel with wheelbases ranging from 42" -46" and stays ranging from 16"-17.25. I'm 5'11" with a 33" inseam if you want to geek out on the theory to try and disprove something I regularly manage just fine.

I've noticed that when the "pro's" are riding for speed, they push the front end down over the drop (like in that vid on the first page by Fabien Barel), I guess to keep the wheels on the ground and maintain control, matching the angle of the bike to the shape of the terrain.

Danny Heart does it at 0.26 here;

Yeah squashing it, check out the Peaty video I posted earlier. It all depends whether it's faster to have the wheels on the ground or faster to launch over trail obstacles.