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I'm off the alps again in 2 weeks.
Some of the stuff I did last time was beyond me so I walked the sections i wasnt happy on.
I wasn't the worst in the group either.
Alps riding is properly different to UK riding
No injurys no problem
People need to do their own risk assessment.
Doesn't answer your question, but as people have said, I think part of the solution is more consistent grading of routes.
My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.
Even cannock has black features that are way beyond some other trail centres but display the same colour. Parts there I struggle with despite having done the mega last year.
As for on the holiday, I think it needs a diplomatic but honest talk if there are no alternative routes they can be pointed towards. They maybe should include a warning that if you're deemed not to be at the standard you'll be kept off the trails for your own safety.
Mrs and I have just done a couple of days in Verbier. I agree with the above that the grading is wildly different to UK riding. A blue trail marked as ‘easy’ is steep, rocky, technical, loose. Similar to a UK black, but even that wouldn’t have the length of length of decent. This is where people are caught out I think.
The disparity in grading across Europe, and further afield I imagine is more pronounced than skiing, as I think there is an actual grading system and standards which resorts work to, keeping some commonality.
Anyway, Verbier is incredible!
In our group (just over a dozen) there were two or three riders who had very poor bike handling. Think riding things with one foot off the pedals, descending sitting down, etc. Not just low skilled but lacking the basic fundamentals of MTBing.
That falls both on the company and the riders. If they were that far out of their depth then its a safety issue nad the guides should have refused to take them and given them their money back. The company should have done some screening of the guests but if they’d massively over estimated their abilities its on them. There are questions you can ask potential guests - where have you ridden before being a key one.
I can understand guiding for natural trails, but I always thought in the Alps you could just rock up and explore the way marked trails, or is the advantage of guides is they will talk about what to expect- line choices and so on.
A blue trail marked as ‘easy’ is steep, rocky, technical, loose. Similar to a UK black, but even that wouldn’t have the length of length of decent. This is where people are caught out I think.
Yes, the grading is one thing but most people in the UK are not used to climbs that go on for more than about 15 mins or decents that go on for more than about 5 mins. Same on road biking - you go to the Alps and you can be climbing for an hour which is unheard of in the UK. So people end up tired, making mistakes etc.
It's been a long time since I've done any MTB holidays but I remember the guides taking the whole group out for what they'd term a sort of shakedown ride - make sure the bike is fine after the flight (or the hire bike fits you), get used to the heat and so on so it'd be nicely laid back which cut down on the pressure for the novice riders and also reined in the super keen guys who wanted to smash everything. Once they had the feel for everyone, they'd split the groups up, usually something like a ride out to lunch together and then split the groups up into fast / slow or tech / non-tech for the ride back.
Riding in a group of 12 or 13 sounds bloody awful, regardless of whether the riders were up to the job or not.
+1
Nothing to add as I’ve only ridden with one company so can’t really add anything as they only appear to do group sizes of 6-7 (both mates trips and strangers). Gonna be sure I never book on with these mega groups.
Doesn’t answer your question, but as people have said, I think part of the solution is more consistent grading of routes.
My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.
I've been abroad a few times on MTB hols, and never even considered the grading of trails, I enjoy going different places and feel relatively comfortable riding new stuff, tbh it's probably the reason I went, was new stuff to ride.
I'd say it's an issue that folk REALLY NEED a trail graded. If your comfortable riding the vast majority of the Lakes, you'll be fine, if Swinley is your limit, then the Alps is maybe best avoided.
I can understand guiding for natural trails, but I always thought in the Alps you could just rock up and explore the way marked trails, or is the advantage of guides is they will talk about what to expect- line choices and so on.
Local knowledge.
It depends on the country/region, but the way-marked MTB trails are generally just selected hiking trails and fire roads arranged into a nice route. They may be graded, but this is often as much about length/climbing on route as it is about technicality. You could waste a lot of time exploring loops that weren't what you're after. There's also a huge network of trails beyond those marked up as MTB routes. Navigation can be tricky, as way-marking can be a bit hit and miss. There are also bike parks - purpose-built, lift-assisted MTB trails, and yes, you wouldn't need a guide for those.
I've only done one guided MTB holiday, but in terms of getting value from the time there it was awesome. Ability assessed on the first day, and then a week of trails that actually suit you - not beyond you, but not boring.
I've been to the Alps a few times since on "family" holidays, and have sorted out my own routes. There have been some great ones, but also a few duff ones, and I actually quite enjoying poring over maps and the Strava heatmap putting the routes together.
If it's clearly advertised as a trip for advance riders, then it's tough luck for the incompetent guests. The hosts should do their best to accommodate them, but your trip shouldn't be impacted by them. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to suggest this.
I wanted to do a snowboarding trip for 'advance' riders but I wasn't sure if I was of the required level. I made contact with the organiser and they told me to not to book as I'd have been out of my depth. If I'd gone ahead and booked and found out I'm not what they class as 'advanced', I'd have to just suck it up and make the most of the bits within my ability but accept that I'd be missing out on other parts.
I have some sympathy with tour companies trying to deal with mixed-ability groups..... but that is the nature of their business after all - they should either find a way to deal with it, or get comfortable with turning people (and their money) away, or issuing refunds to angry/hurt customers.
However, I also think there's some personal responsibility to be taken here. Assuming that the people in the group knew each other and had cycled together before - it cannot have escaped the notice of those at the "lower end" of the skill scale that they were such. Before booking a cycling holiday with that group, THEY should have checked that there was some option for them to participate without either being massively out of their depth, or restricting the rest of the group.
Most people who've been skiing in a group have experienced this I think - guided holiday or not.
I’d say it’s an issue that folk REALLY NEED a trail graded. If your comfortable riding the vast majority of the Lakes, you’ll be fine, if Swinley is your limit, then the Alps is maybe best avoided
How so ? You go to the alps and ride the blue/green and it's all good... you ride some red and they can be OK, but without some assistance in the colours, you could set off through a gate and find out it's got a 10m gap jump in the middle of it ? That's why the colours are there surely ? Of course there's interpretation within it, but how would you know before setting off down a particular small strip of dirt what's going on half way down there?
I used to guide transalp and invariably had groups of differing abilities.
Part of the group confident on alpine trails and wanting more tech, and others who were perhaps out of their depth/comfort zone on anything steep, exposed, loose or narrow.
On the first day, a few km in, I used to detour to a short section of trail that, although short, had all of the above, albeit in small dosis. I'd quickly know who to keep an eye on and who I could trust, as it were.
Evenings I would offer some coaching tips for the next day, whether that be switchbacks, how to get off your bike on steep terrain or, believe it or not, how to set off uphill from a standing start (many flat landers couldn't get their bike in motion without having the bike rolling first).
Sometimes you get lucky and the group is quite homogenous. A few older bikers along with a few less experienced riders with everyone happy to take the easier descents or even fireroads. Or everyone fairly experienced and happy to take the trickier, techier trails.
Had to arrange for a few people to transfer to the easier L1 tour that ran more or less parallel to mine. Not something we wanted to do as it involved our driver having to make big detours with the client to transfer them. However, some people are a liability to themselves and the rest of the group.
One particular lady I had to transfer. She had previously completed the L1 tour and found it didn't have enough climbing. Fair enough. She was like a rocket going up. But watching her descending was nerve wracking. All over the place, really sketchy lines. Even some of the other clients mentioned it to me.
On the third day, climbing on the road she was zigzagging left and right and had a couple of bear misses with cars. Spoke to her about it at the pass and it turns out she was completely blind in her left eye and that's why she couldn't see the cars or pick a line down the trail. She admitted the trails were tougher than expected, she just wanted more climbing. We agreed that fireroads and bike paths would be better. It also meant the rest of the tour was a bit more grrr and everyone was happy.
Another was two lads, mid 20's, total bike nerds. All the gear: deuter alpine rucksacks, liteville 301, those weird crank bros wheels... Talking about nothing other than bikes, exotic locations they had ridden, the highest hike-a-bike peaks. On the second day it was clear that they were out of their depth on anything remotely approaching alone terrain.
I kinda felt sorry for them. Almost deluded. Only ever rode with each other, read all the magazines and had drunk the kool aid. If they were with their bikes where they sat they were then I can imagine it was exactly that;with their bikes in that location.... pushing them up and then back down.
it turns out she was completely blind in her left eye and that’s why she couldn’t see the cars
bloody hell! How could she not think she needed to mention that!
Have also taken tours in Finale for a friend's shop.
Had a few tours where people have simply said no, it's not for them and they either sit out the odd trail or roll back down into Finale.
Another where two girls were struggling so I stayed at the back with them and given a few lads had been there before and knew the trails and pick up points for the shuttle let them get in another trail whilst I coached others down.
It's difficult when you've got a group where everyone can ride but the pace is way off so you end up missing out on other or trickier trails as the group gets split up so much.
There it is hard to swap to an easier group as the vans are often full. After the first day the guides may discuss who is quick or not and mix the groups accordingly.
Had one guy where I felt like a rabbit being chased by a greyhound... the crazy guy who just wanted to go faster and left no gap. Got a free ride with shuttle being guided by a very speedy friend*. I let him know about the greyhound. I also told the greyhound to simply follow behind and not try riding matey's lines as this guy pops off of everything and disappears down the trail.
On the second shuttle of the day the greyhound spanners himself against a tree. In German they would say he "überschätzt" himself.
*sitting at the din, eating smoking all day long and this guy says let's ride rollercoaster. he'll take it easy for me to follow him. Him gliding along, popping off each root, rock or undulation. Me, wide eyes, gasping, seeing new lines and feeling right in the edge of glory or hospital. Ended up with several PBs in that descent.
Coming from skiing I think this is where there is some mileage in some coordinated assessment schemes at a national level (at least). They give a reasonably reliable yardstick, but adoption is generally difficult to gain.
Adding a timed assessment would also be an objective measure - but I don't think there's a federal structure sufficient, or enough public appetite, in the UK to ever get something off the ground.
An alternative might be to organise pre-trip "demo" days. If you're interested in one of our trips, come to Trail Centre XYZ for a demo with one of our guides and you get to know them and they get to give their advice on what would be best for you as a rider.
A useful tool for me was the single trail Skala
www.singletrail-skala.de
Useful to show guests so that when I say this trail is S3, some S4 they know what is coming.
A useful tool for me was the single trail Skala
http://www.singletrail-skala.de
Useful to show guests so that when I say this trail is S3, some S4 they know what is coming.
Anything over S3 sounds more like trials than MTBing from those descriptions.
All this sounds trifficly complicated. I've only done a day's guided riding, and due to a quirk of booking and illness, it was just me and the two guides. Recommended.
My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.
The UK grading system is all over the place. Bedgebury near me is a 'red' and it has 2 small 'rock gardens' and a couple of 6" drops. The Black section has 3 1ft drops.
It's laughable that it has the same grade as any of the red trails at BPW.
I'm interested in this thread as I'm looking to book a Spanish guided trip later this year, I'm comfortable on fast rocky descents, big rock gardens etc, but show me a blind 3ft drop and I'll be the first to pull up short.
Anything over S3 sounds more like trials than MTBing from those descriptions.
I'm sure I've seen similar based more on the climbing system which incorporates other factors too? E.g. someone who ride in the lakes might be comfortable with the rocky aspects of s4 on that scale, but might otherwise be a "wheels on the ground" type rider completely out of their depth following someone down a blue trail centre run with jumps and berms at speed, or even just cornering in general. Or an S2 trail might be a 2km green loop at swinley or a 100km landrover track across a Scottish hillside with no resupply options.
This is an interesting thread and probably saves me starting a similiar one from a different perspective. Im seriously considering booking a ferry crossing and heading out next summer with my son. Looking at the usual Morzine but really like the look of livigno. Anyhoo to give you an idea I'd say Im an intermediate rider , I can get down the normal Golfie stuff (3g , new york , new york , repeat)at a reasonable time but wouldnt attempt the harder stuff as I know I dont have the skills / balls to do so. My son on the other hand has placed weel in 6 races this year in both mini downhill and enduro so I have no qualms about him riding anything as long as he has sessioned it.
Where as my ideal holiday might be a long Sierra Nevada natural descent hed probably want to go to finale which I'd be wasted on.
The last thing Id want is to go and hold each other back or not ride together. If any could offer advice on destinations or general advice without me hijacking the OP it would be appreciated.
I have no experiance of being guided but do normally ride with people who are more experienced and generally better riders and they wont let anyone ride anything way out of their comfort zone and if Im trying a trail which is on the limits of my comfort zone they will stop before a feature to point out and give advice If I want to try it.
I've heard moans from friends who've been on physically & technically demanding, very expensive point-to-point MTB trips. They've been unhappy that big sections were cut out due to other guests with woefully inadequate skills or fitness.
Ideally those guests would have been screened by the organiser, but perhaps it's difficult to turn down £1k-odd when your books are not full anyway?
The only thing bugging me a bit about this thread is that there simply must have been some option of easier trails in the area, and if 3 or 4 riders were out of their depth it would just make sense to take them down those.
I have to admit after chatting to some friends with coaching/guiding experience, I do not envy them over this sort of thing. I'm quite glad that the club I can just suggest a ride, describe it, and let people walk down everything if they like.
Having recently totaled myself on an alpine Blue recently... I agree the Alps are harder!
I have had this issue with guided groups before, but with guided offpiste and backcountry snowboarding/splitboarding.
There are ALWAYS people who sign up to guided trips who are not of the required skill level. However he skill level of the groups can vary enormously week to week. I must have done the same trip about 5 times over a few years, and the level of the other riders varied a lot.
Recently the canadian lodge trips I go on have a large base group of 12-16 people but then you have 3 or 4 guides - so you can split off into smaller groups to tackle days of different intensity and technicality. usually have two full mountain guides and then 1 or 2 tail guide. Makes for a much better holiday than e.g. a base group of 6-8 with only 1 guide and no option to split up.
I’ve heard moans from friends who’ve been on physically & technically demanding, very expensive point-to-point MTB trips. They’ve been unhappy that big sections were cut out due to other guests with woefully inadequate skills or fitness.
That is so annoying!
I woudl expect on point to point trips - you ride or you go in the van, I would not be at all happy about my route being cut short.
For me, that's way too big a group. We take a maximum of 14 riders and have 4 guides available if needed. I don't personally enjoy guiding a group of more than 4 or 5, it starts to get too stop-start and stressful. If we have people who want to ride as a bigger group, we'll try to have 2 guides with them so we can have a guide front and back. Makes things much smoother. It's not unusual for us to end up with one person guiding just one or 2 clients because their level just doesn't fit with the rest of the group.
We've never had to tell someone that their level is just too low for the trip, although we've been close to it a couple of times. Fortunately, those times have usually worked themselves out either by the person in question realising they were out of their depth and choosing not to ride or by us providing effectively private guiding for them! There have been quite a few cases over the years where people have enquired about booking a trip and, after a discussion about their experience, we've advised that it probably wouldn't suit them.
Our van-based (rather than chairlift based) weeks do have slightly larger groups, but even then we would always split into at least 2 groups and we would try to steer anyone unsure of their ability away from those weeks and encourage them to book a chairlift week with maximum flexibility.
We do use self-assessments to group people initially, with the groups staying close together on the first day if we think we might need to swap people around. We used to have issues with 99% of people rating themselves either 3 or 4 (on a 1-5 scale), which doesn't tell you much, but we re-jigged our scale a few years back to be more descriptive at each level, trying to refer things back to UK trails and that's been a lot better. We now have a fair (and usually accurate) spread from 3-5, with the advice that anything less than 3 is probably unsuitable for riding in the Alps. Our scale is here if anyone's interested (I'd actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!): https://www.whiteroommtb.com/riding (scroll down, sorry, can't create an anchor link!).
It's not always a perfect world though. Sometimes you can have 12 riders who could quite happily ride with one guide. Sometimes you can have 4 riders and feel like you need 4 guides!
That's the kind of assessment I meant (of the rider), rather than trail grading. Re-reading my post it wasn't clear. It's used a lot in skiing but mainly as a prerequisite for instructor training and things. I still think the general public would get a lot and tying it into to trail maps would be very useful. E.g. this trail has tight exposed switchbacks therefore it's recommended only for Silver or Gold Bikewheel (my evaluation scheme's name in this theoretical example) because that level includes an evaluation of that. Wholly unrealistic that all people attending would have such an assessment but I do believe it's in a sport's governing body's roles to promote such stuff.
It's basically the measure of a guide company, this. I've been on one that made promises in advance that they couldn't keep- not for want of trying, but still- and it was rubbish for the fast riders and rubbish for the not fast riders. I've been with the same not-fast rider to Bikevillage and White Room and it was dealt with properly.
Equally I have to admit that I'm a pretty decent rider, I'm not going to be the last man down, but there's been times I've not been fit enough- I died on Mont Jovet frinstance and had to take the weakling option and miss the summit. And that's been handled too, because that time, we were with a good outfit.
Anything less isn't good enough tbf, that's what the job is.
. If any could offer advice on destinations or general advice without me hijacking the OP it would be appreciated.
Hang on.
Here you go..... My random wafflings about Finale with kids.. https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sorry-need-to-preview-a-post-ignore-me/
Our scale is here if anyone’s interested (I’d actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!)
Very good, easy to place myself on that and it captures a useful range of abilities on both the skill and fitness sides.
So do most people put themselves as 4 / 4?
“Our scale is here if anyone’s interested (I’d actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!): https://www.whiteroommtb.com/riding (scroll down, sorry, can’t create an anchor link!).”
This doesn’t show on your mobile site. Found it after requesting the desktop version.
That German S1 etc scale makes me feel like a useless rider!
“So do most people put themselves as 4 / 4?”
I’d say I’m a 4- on both fronts.
@thegenerlist that is a very good write up on Finale , sounds excellent.
I usually put myself in the middle and have usually done OK
I remember the first time I went to the Alps, seems a long time ago now, it was on a girlie week with Bike Verbier. I had a long chat with them over the phone just to ensure I would be up for it. Even then I spent every weekend for 6 weeks before in Wharncliffe on the DHs and the rocky bits
Aged a bit since then but still ride an Enduro
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Most good companies, and every one we have used, manage to cater for all abilities and go out of their way to make everyone's holiday a good one.
If each individual was honest with them selves on their ability then the ratings will work.
The problem guides have is when someone rates 4-5 and turnout to be 1-2.
I scored myself a 4/4 on Steve's chart, the wife a 3/3 and when we went Iona seemed to agree. Unfortunately Steve was on a point to point trip when we were there so didn't get to ride with him.
Just for the record, White Room are bloody fantastic and I'd highly recommend them to anyone looking for some Alps guiding.
Our scale is here if anyone’s interested (I’d actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!)
I'm a 3/4 on that scale, this sentance sums me up: "You'll generally ride most features, but will get off and walk if it's very steep or if you come across big rock/root features."
I'm happy barrelling down a rocky descent at speed but put a blind 3ft drop, or a steep rooty chute in front of me and I'll happily walk it.
I'm not sure I'm target market for guided tours, but thought I'd try steve's rating system. I've been riding for decades, but not really challenged myself. Mostly natural stuff rather than trail centres. I'm comfortable with all-day XC rides but not so much on tech stuff. so Here goes - probably 3. not really up for 4. Oh, fitness wise - 4 going on 5 (maybe the natural stuff helps). Shocked to realise - in passing - I'm in later 50s.
If each individual was honest with them selves on their ability then the ratings will work.
The problem guides have is when someone rates 4-5 and turnout to be 1-2.
I dont think that's a guiding thing, that's just a riding thing in general.
The amount of enduro races I've done where you 'self seed' on entry 1-5 (1 being fast, 5 being slow) & you catch the supposed 1s after a minutes racing gets pretty tedious.
I've only ever done a proper guided holiday once, which I went to after an EWS, they had a point if I was happy to race that, I can go in the fast group. They had a fairly chilled out day the first ride, where people moved around in groups to be more ability matched, which seemed to work well. Never really had to deal with someone totally out of their depth, but I imagine it's not fun for anyone.
Done a couple of guided days at Finale which are a very typically Italian approach - as I'll pretty much ride anything in terms of difficulty it's less daunting for me, but they literally lump you together with a bunch of strangers and the guide sets you off down some trails. There is zero progression/coaching though, which some people want. About as much as you get is "watch out for these key features", if you're lucky 🙂
Interesting scale that.
Gut feeling is I'd be about a 3.5 on both tech and fitness, but it would depend heavily on the terrain and features.
Happy to ride both trails at Fort William (admittedly slowly on the WC course), and comfortable on Snowdon Rangers, Skiddaw/Ullock Pike, Helvellyn natural stuff (bar the odd big feature). Have ridden the walkers path down from the Brevent lift at Chamonix 'blind' with only a couple of short get off and walk sections. BUT, put a blind drop or decent gap in front of me and I'm all over the place. Most BPW and Antur reds are fine (Antur 'single' Black OK too, but the BPW blacks are a 'nope' all day long.
Ideally, if want that sort of detailed self-assessment combined with a description of the trails and example features so I could judge against specific details. Videos help.
I dont think that’s a guiding thing, that’s just a riding thing in general.
And in addition to this, people rate themselves against others they ride with, so without any reference points most people booking bike trips would probably say they're a four our of five.
But the person they think is a five would mark themselves a four against someone else they ride with. And so on.
That's why Stevo's system is an improvement as it gives concrete benchmarks for riders to relate themselves to.
Gut feeling is I’d be about a 3.5 on both tech and fitness, but it would depend heavily on the terrain and features.
I reckon I would be about the same these days, I simply ride MTBs less these days and as I've gotten older my bravery has diminished, I'm still fine with rocks/roots, smallish gaps and drops up to a couple of feet where I can see a landing, but bump up the scale (and risk) or make features a bit too blind and I'll start looking for the chicken line...
My fitness is fine for half a day of pedalling, and I can stretch to a full day off-road but I would be pretty knackered so I would tend to score myself slightly below a 4 for both.
That scale does basically suggest that it's really not worth booking if you don't rate yourself as 3/3 or higher...
I never go on these mixed guided holidays now.
I dislike too much wet nursing, hate the stubborn old guy on the hardtail and cringe at watching those out of their depth.
Shame as I'm grumpy but social.
But when I go on a riding holiday I like to ride.
Difficult for the guides and guests... and I know that I have been one of the less adept in my time.
Thanks for the feedback all, glad the scale makes sense for people. It's been working pretty well for us.
Someone asked what most people rate themselves. Without looking at any real stats, I would guesstimate that about 50% of people rate themselves 4, 30% rate themselves 3 and 20% rate themselves 5 on ability. Fitness ratings would be similar, maybe a few less 5's and a few 2's in chairlift season.
That scale does basically suggest that it’s really not worth booking if you don’t rate yourself as 3/3 or higher…
That is pretty-much the point. Anyone with an ability level less than 3 is not likely to enjoy a singletrack-focussed holiday in the Alps and should get in touch with us to discuss things before booking. Less than 3 on fitness is fine on chairlift weeks, but again is likely to lead to a lack of enjoyment on a more pedally week. We can and do make special arrangements for people with lower ability levels, but it's a lot easier to do so if we know about it well in advance!
Is it easy to post the Whiteroom ratings? Only on a mobile device here so can’t see it.