[Closed] Help choose a trail bike for a coward

Hope HB160.

#closethread

I've seen complete Ibis' for £2700 but prob more bike than what you're after.

It's gotta be said that the plus Ibis bike I have is the best ever susspension design I've ever tried and really rate just leaving in open mode all the time.

They just handle great, real fun bikes. Bit on the low side for BB mind but I can live with that plus still playing with rear shock pressures.

Whatever you choose to testride, enjoy and then just buy the one that fits you primarily & the one that looks kick ass to you.

👍😁

Oooh just seen your testride experiences. D'oh.

go order any bike from winstanleys then or jejames, they'll errrrr see you right 😂

I’m currently torn between a Tallboy3, Primer and (new) FlareMax with similar requirements and overall experiences although I’m best part of a decade younger.  A 29er with clearance for decent 27.5+ tyres might be your sweet spot too.

I’m planning test rides in April. I’m trying not to like the Cotic too much because I’m feeling a bit like a one-brand pony with a Soul275, Solaris and X in the house already and parts accruing for a Soul V build.  I love the look of the Intense and I’m a bit wowed by the carbon fibre 😜 but I’m drawn to the Santa Cruz because I’ve got such happy memories of my now ancient Chameleon 2 (when it wasn’t beating me up or trying to get me killed!).  I’m looking forward to seeing if Will’s Primer report from the Lakes gets published before I ride one...

So from your post I got this;

Needs to be balanced in terms or climb/decent capability, while still able to handle most trail features but doesn't need to cope with any serious drops/air etc? I'm guessing 120-140mm will be the sweet spot. Preferably from the more 'boutique', less mass produced end of the brand spectrum?

Preferred wheel size and budget will help us narrow it down somewhat.....

Scott Spark, the non RC 120mm with the Fox 34.   Beautiful handling, balance and confidence inspiring, and the current suspension/twinloc is a peach of a system for a climber.

Mmhhhh

Interesting post. Difficult task so...

Own hardtail bikes and a full suspension bike. No fat bike so. Confidence inspiring?

You own right now a rigid fatbike. And you like it. Means you own right now tons of grip, lots of tire plush and no damping (no damping ist not really confidence inspiring!).

How about a long 130/130 or 140/140 PLUS trail bike? You are used to 4 inch tires are so - guess you like to stay with nearly 3 inch tires also with this new bike? Maybe 2.8 inch?

In my opinion this will keep the "fat tire fun" you like and it adds spring/damping to front and back. Adds traction and stability - means it should be more confidence inspiring than what you have right now!

Or: maybe a PLUS trail hardtail? Also 130 mm or 140 mm fork. Fat tires, long frame?

Plenty bikes out there which might make you happy.

Jeffsy 29. Fast, stable, surprisingly manoeuverable, climbs very well (although the 32t chainring is ambitious for most mortals). But given your point 3 I guess a Flare is the answer.

Salsa Horsethief/Pony Rustler might be worth a look

I'd put the new Cotic FlareMax high on my list of bikes to check out (I would quite possibly have one myself if I hadn't bought a SC Hightower a month before they announced the new one!)

While B+ doesn't quite offer the same uncrashable feeling that you get from fat tyres it gets close!

Hi,

Orange segment/ stage 4.

Nice, climbs well, confidence inspiring on the downs, "a brand".

I ran mine with a 140mm fork and it was great up, great down, great bimbling round my local woods and great bike packing in the lakes.

I've moved on to a geometron G13. Mostly because I have always wanted a Niolai and partialy because I'm tall and there was an extra longest on ebay.

The geometron is more confidence inspiring. Its easy to catch slides and the like, or hold them. Some one is selling a G13 in the classifieds at the moment.

I have a brand new large segment frame in grey I'm about to put up for sale if you are interested?.....

I've said it before but Tallboy 3 is well worth considering. If you like fat then I suspect you'll get on with it in plus format, if not its great in 29, it does really give the bike a different personality depending on wheelset. Ignore the relatively unfashionable geometry, it is a great bike. Dig out a review on NSMB which I think is a pretty fair reflection on the bike. Hightower is also good if you want more travel.

Scott Spark worth considering?

Depends what you classify as a good climber? I have yet to get on an orange which I would class as a good climber relative to the competition (my Five was terrible) but then my climbs are mainly fireroad slogs.

Whilst clearly everyone is entitled to an opinion...I wouldn't suggest you get a G13. As an owner of one it will be waaaay too much bike for what you're after, not because of the travel but the geometry and the fact they, like all the G series bikes, respond best to being ridden aggressively which is not your cup of tea as I think you've stated in the past.

What was wrong with that Smuggler you had? That was you wasn't it?

Not being funny BTW, just surprised that didn't fit the bill and it's quite similar to the other bikes I'd have suggested.

I have recently bought a Trek Fuel and it feels much more stable than previous bikes. It is a 29er but can run 650+.

It climbs well and goes down very well. I wanted a bike I could test first and this one was by far my favourite of everything I tried.

Think the model below mine won trial bike of the year on MBR.

I’m in a similar boat to yourself - mid 50’s, know what you’re saying about injuries...as a result, I’ve found myself getting a bit more risk averse too.  Hence my change from my usual fast and furious handling type rides to things that are more confidence inspiring.  Myself and a pal are demo addicts, so we are forever trying new bikes.

After trying all sorts of stuff inc. (amongst others) SC Hightower, Intense Primer, Cotic RocketMAX, Orange Five and Segment, Specialized Camber, Stumpy ‘6 Fattie’, I ended up getting a FlareMAX (not very the latest one).  I’ve been very happy with my FlareMAX and it’s a great all rounder and very confidence inspiring - however, I’m mainly riding fast flowing woodland singletrack, trail centre type stuff and some natural trails in the Dark Peak. For this sort of stuff it’s absolutely fantastic.  I’ve got both the standard XFusion and the Cane Creek upgrade shock, and with the Cane Creek, it feels more like it has 135mm or 140mm of rear suspension.  I’ve done black trails at Coed y Brenin and the off piste and Enduro trails at Glentress on it, and (with the XFusion shock) it only starts to feel a bit ragged when the speed build on rooty or rocky trails - the CC is much better in this respect.

Having said all that, I tried the RocketMAX in Scotland and I was very pleasantly surprised.  I took it up from Peebles to the mast at Glentress, and was expecting to suffer a bit on the climb, but it I didn’t feel any harder work than on my FlareMAX (I’d seen a review online that mentioned how the RocketMAX felt draggier uphill......different shock pressure or tyres maybe?).  I wouldn’t say it romps uphill like the £8k Intense we tried, or the bling build Hightower, but it rode lighter than its actual weight.  Point it downhill and some rough natural  trails and the RocketMAX comes alive, and I found it very confidence inspiring, but at the same time quite manoeuvrable, and the sizing and fit feels balanced i.e. you don’t have to drag yourself over the front end too much to get the front end to bite on flowy trails.  I think if I still did most of my riding on rougher and steep natural trails in Scotland or Lakes, Peak etc., I’d go for a RocketMAX.

As far as the Oranges go, I found the handling and confidence levels of the Segment to be almost identical to the FlareMAX, or maybe a tad better dropping into crazy steep stuff.  What I’d forgotten with the Oranges is the clattering noise and the Segment just didn’t feel quite as ‘poppy’ as the FlareMAX.  On the plus side, I think the Segments frame is probably lighter, and it’d be easy to clean!

Hightower and Primer felt quite similar to me, but I got to try the Hightower on a fast rough rocky descent - it just ate it for breakfast.  I tried the Primer on trail centre Flow type trails and it just felt a bit ordinary.  My old Tallboy LTc and my pals Yeti felt way better, but I’d have liked to try it on some really rough stuff.  Having owned the TB LTc for a few years, I was expecting to be blown away by the Hightower, but although it was brilliant descending fast through the rough, everywhere else it felt a bit numb/dead.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Out of all the other bikes I’ve tried, the one that perhaps surprised me most was the Stumpjumper 6Fattie Carbon - the confidence levels in the rough and steep were huge, but it was still very poppy and fun.  Main thing that put me off was tyre choice for mud. </span>

Anyways, I stop going on and do some work!😊

Thanks everyone. Some interesting points there for me to ponder.

@chakaping: you are right about the Smuggler and it's one of the things that is making me pause as it should have been ideal. To be fair it wasn't far off; fast and playful and on the first few rides Inthought it was perfect. But it comes back to this confidence thing. I found with the Smuggler I had to get my weight well forward to make it work and then I was hanging over the front which didn't inspire confidence. If I was feeling confident it would fly and I set plenty of PRs on it, but I needed to provide the confidence. I wonder if it was just the short chainstays. Maybe something a bit longer at the back would be ideal.

Obviously you can't have everything, There is no such thing as a bike that climbs like an XC bike and descends like a downhill bike. I get that, but I think there is a difference between a bike that inspires confidence and one that is fast downhill. I'm not too worried about being fast downhill as long as I can get down feeling secure then I'm happy.

The flare max has been mentioned a few times and that is indeed high on my list. As is the Stage 4, but the geometry of that is pretty much identical to my old Smuggler, just a bit lower and I thought the Smuggler was too low if anything. I look at the length and slackness of the new flare max and part of me thinks "forget it, that's clearly designed for much more aggressive riders than you" but part of me thinks "yes I bet that would feel amazingly stable coming down". Short travel to help with the climbs, long to help with the descents, longer chainstays so I don't need to shift my weight as far forwards. No it wouldn't blast through stuff as fast as the rocket, but that's not what I'm after.

I've thought about a full suss plus bike but I'm thinking not. Partly because I'd like it to be different to the fat bike, which isn't going anywhere. I did have a plus bike back when they first came out. A Solaris with some plus wheels from Cotic. It's what got me into the fat bike and I still think plus (or full fat) works well on a hardtail, but I'm less convinced on a full suss. I'm just not convinced about mixing damped and undamped suspension. It's worth noting that I've put the fat bike back to fully rigid. I will try the suspension fork again in the spring but I'm tending to think it's big tyres or suspension and if I decide to go plus again it's more likely that I'd put plus wheels on the fat bike.

Of course, I may be influenced by the fact that my preferred brands don't really offer a plus bike. Ok the flare max can run plus wheels, but there is no geometry adjustment so it just drops the BB by around 10mm which I think would annoy me as one thing I like about the flare max is the higher BB.

You're overthinking the shit out of this aren't ya? 😀

Wait until folk start selling their old FlareMaxi and pick up a second hand bargain. Get a set of + wheels with the money saved and you're laughing. If you're seriously worried about a 10mm BB drop with + tyres you need to step away from the internet and ride bikes more.

Same for unstable bikes (not aimed at you but there's a lot of it about these days) - I've never heard of anyone complaining that their bike felt unstable at speed. Most likely cause they aren't and it's just waffle. A skateboard with loose trucks is unstable at speed! Heck even my old BMX was stable at 50+mph.

As for confidence..that's a trickier one. In an ideal world you'd aim to be a confident rider so no matter what bike you're on, you bring it with you. Buying a bike that instantly gives you confidence is sticky plaster imo, but plasters do no harm i suppose 😀

I’ve read some of your musings about bikes, and you’re definitely overthinking it! Forget looking at geometry charts, test ride a few and find one that feels right!

You’re overthinking the shit out of this aren’t ya? 😀

Sure am. Stick to what you are good at I say 🙂

To be fair, work and family commitments mean that I can get out for a ride a couple of times a week. That leaves a lot if time for thinking. Why not spend some of that time trying to understand what makes bikes feel the way they do and what designs might work best for you? Plus, I enjoy a good think.

On the other hand I do sometimes think I should just ignore all the numbers. Pick a designer you admire and buy whatever they think works. For example, a 66 degree head angle and a massive reach on a short travel 29er sounds bonkers to me, but if Cy thinks those numbers make a good all day trail bike then who am I to argue?

It's not so much the 10mm lower BB that worries me (although I suspect that is significant) as the fact that I found the low BB on the Smuggler annoying at times.

I absolutely take your point about skills. That is the ultimate aim, but as you say a sticking plaster does little harm and in order to keep improving I need to keep riding. So anything that reduces my time off the bike recovering from injuries has to be good.

@wors: I tried to deal with the test ride thing at the start. I don't doubt that test rides work (and may even be essential) for many people, but experience has taught me that I'm crap at working out whether a bike will suit me on a test ride.

I think you are going in the right direction but do try to make the effort to demo the Cotic.

The lower bb with plus tyres is noticeable on my Solaris 2 .I have now got a 165mm chainset to use in plus mode though.

Will a boutique bike really make you happy?

You are only 53 - possible that you need a bike which you can use to do more training?

Any modern 130/130 or 140/140 mm bike - or even a 130 mm hardtail will do the Job?

Pick good tires, pick a good fork and go out in the woods and train hard - even when the weather is crappy... - or?

The boutique bike (although nice) won't buy you confidence and skill. Fear of getting hurt: understand that. But isn't that based maybe more onto a lack of fitness?

If you train 2018 very hard - you feel so much better end of the year. I fear that the boutique thing won't really help you...

Wow this thread be tougher than ross hemp!

Is it just UK boutique you like?

If not, can I throw a Yeti SB5 or Pivot Mach 5.5 in the mix? Both are quality Trail bikes.

Just a thought but if your looking for something confidence inspiring and if i understand you right maybe not at the nu skool end of geometry would you be better of looking at something from say trek or specialized as the bigger manufacturers tend to be a bit more conservative with their geometry which might make it a bit more of a neutral ride  .

The treks seem to get good reviews from people on here .

I’m an older fart than you and I’m not brave in the sense of attempting big doubles or road gaps and big drops to flat.

But I do like steep, rocky technical stuff and, following the trend for recommending what I ride, I’d suggest a Liteville 301, Mk12 or 13 (although I only have a couple of Mk10’s).

Or an HB160, of course.

Joking apart from my earlier flippant suggestion... you really should consider the HB160.

Its made by Hope so ticks all your boxes about respected brands, quality of components is superb... if you ever have  a problem with it you know Hope will have you sorted in no time.

The ride is just brilliant. I'm no expert, not by a long way, however this bike is just as much fun to pedal up hill as it is to go down. The reviews all agreed it was more suited to all day big mountain rides than more modern bikes.

I;ve had one ride on mine and got two PB's on two techy descents in the Lakes first time out.

Plus everytime I look at it, I get the "fizz".

Just quickly putting in as you've mentioned the new Cotic geo looking odd but said maybe Cy knows what he's doing - probably worth watching the Bike Show podcast from a couple of days ago where he's discussing Longshot geo with Will.

The idea is that he's putting the rider in a different place, so the geo will look odd if you're comparing it to more traditional modern bikes and trying to imagine the angles and lengths with the rider in the wrong place.  While I've not heard designers of other brands coming out and saying so, I'd imagine the same is true of most other bikes in the current crop of very long low slack...

You mentioned above you didn’t like how far forward you had to get on the smuggler. That you got pr’s when you were on it, but you weren’t fully relaxed / confident on it at all times.

You also mentioned Bird as a possibility - I’d suggest the Bird (Aeris 145 almost fits into your description of the smuggler - I’m smashing pr’s most of the time and when you’re on it it’s fantatic. I’ve had 3 occasions where I’ve been tired or slightly not concentrating and I’ve lost the front end. I’ve never really experienced this on other bikes before so I’m still getting used to the riding style- I’ll have had the bike a year in May.

That said I just feel really comfortable on the bike and it’s the best one I’ve had by miles. I’m curious to see what the Aeris 120 and the AM9 ride like.

Will a boutique bike really make you happy?

To be honest, I don't really think of these as being boutique brands, whatever that means. I certainly don't think their bikes are any better (or worse) than those from other brands. I enjoy riding bikes, but the brand has very little impact on that. However, I do care where my money goes. I think that where you spend your money has at least as much impact on the society in which you live as the occasional trip to the ballot box. I like the fact that Orange keep a few British welders in work. I like the thought that Cy puts into his bikes, the fact that he's not afraid to swim against the tide and that he's happy to show his workings. I also value the contribution that Ben makes to this forum and the commitment Bird seem to have to customer service. So, I'll probably go for something from one of them, but none of that would matter if they didn't also make good bikes.

Of course, other people will have different brands they want to support for different reasons. Some will also argue that it doesn't matter and you should just buy the best bike at the cheapest price and let the market sort out the rest, which is all fine. Each to their own. I'd also be the first to admit that my decisions (at least when it comes to bikes) are far from rational. I like Hope, for example, and will put Hope bits on whatever bike I have. But I wouldn't buy the HB160 for the simple reason that it's black and I don't like black bikes. See, totally irrational 🙂

@joebristol: Thanks. The Aeris is still on the list, but what you are saying fits with the theory that short chainstays make for a nice playful feel, but you have to stay "on it" to make them work. I'm coming round to the idea that longer chainstays may suit me better, although I'm still not sure. Playfull is fun too of course.

@vincienup: I think I've read and listened to pretty much everything Cy has produced (including his ImechE lecture) and am looking forward to his upcoming podcast. As I say, I like the fact that he shows his working.

I have an Ibis mojo slr and Dartmoor Primal Plus HT.

Was all set to but a Mojo 3 frameset and make one super dooper bike from the two, but can't force myself to split the slr as I love riding it.

Then started looking at the 2018 Flare Max but in the end I went for a much discounted 2017 NS Snabb plus frameset to upgrade the Dartmoor to full suss plus bike and keep the slr as is for now.

Should hopefully build it up this weekend and ride it, so will post back comments and thoughts,

The limited reviews suggest they are a good ride and the 2017 full bikes are available at a good price from CRC at the moment.

1) Orange Segment

2) Orange Stage 5

3) Previous Cotic FlareMax

And if you're ok with a non-UK bike :

1) Specialized Stumpjumper

I ride a Canyon Dude as well, and as a second bike I'm going for the Orange Segment.

I'm not interested in "enduro downhill speeds" anymore at 49 yrs so this will be my ideal combination.

If I would have only one bike it would be a Stumpjumper 6Fattie with an extra set of 29" wheels..

What gives you confidence in Geo is probably not the same for everyone.

RE: Demo's... I don't think you demo'd the right bike for you and perhaps to an extent the same with manufacturers in terms of how one manufacturer tends to have a "feel" based on their perception of "average" for a frame size.

I've been blown away by some cheaper bikes... they just worked for me.   I've then tried one of the more expensive (mid-range) ones from the same brand and found I was blown away too.  Other bike's I've tried have been OK but not inspired my confidence.

A huge thing for me (and probably for you) is if the tyres are suitable for the conditions.

Riding exactly the same bike with different tyres on the same trail can be really different in terms of confidence.

I can relate to your quandary. I definitely rely far more on the bike for confidence than on any skills I might have. I loved my 2012 Orange 5 for just this reason, got me out of far more scrapes than it should have. Then I tried a (2014) Banshee Prime.

Oh my word! It just does everything the Orange did so much better. It's not hugely chubby, but it's certainly no lightweight. Even so it climbs pretty well - and that's with a 150mm fork. Just gets traction everywhere and feels a lot lighter than it is, if that makes sense?

And it's such an amazing confidence giver it's awesome. So much so that I've started making return trips to the local bike park. I know anyone sane would point out that I am massively overbiked for most of my riding, but I see it as "skills compensation". At least I know that if I tank it, it's definitely my fault, not the bike's!

Not sure how the range has developed since I got mine, but might be worth a look. (If you're in the South West and want a test ride give me a shout).

Trek Fuel is the right answer.

I'm sure other brands are good as well, but Trek nailed the 29er thing ages ago.

I’ve been eyeing up the new Rocket but I got back on my trusty Spitfire on Tuesday and again last night and damn, it’s such a good bike.

As someone who overthinks things and is oversensitive to everything about bike setup, I’ve really appreciated how adjustable the Banshee frames are - moveable dropouts to change the angles and BB height, swappable to change chainstay length and allow plus tyres, and then the usual changes from fork travel, angle headsets and sag settings.

According to the numbers I’m practically riding a short travel DH bike now (I have a longer fork than stock and a -2 deg headset) but it just works so well as a general trail bike despite revelling in uplift days. And the 29er Banshee’s can run 29, 27.5+ or 29+.

Roverpig - no worries on the Bird feedback. I’m not sure with the Aeris if it’s the chainstay length (are 435mm chainstays short?) or just how long the front is.

I've ridden my mates Kona Process 134 and it’s way more playful than the Aeris - the front just wants to pop up all the time - it’s so easy to manual / pop off trail stuff etc, but then it’s less stable on the rough and fast downhills. I don’t think I’d be losing. The front end on it and it’s a lot less slack (it’s a 2014 model with Revelations and 2x10 etc). I wouldn’t swap my bike for it at all, but I wouldn’t mind it for the flat / easy trail riding where you don’t need 160mm of travel or a 65 degree head angle.

I'm 55 and a bit (lot) of a coward and I bought a Cotic Rocket - hugely confidence inspiring, climbs brilliantly, and descends far better than I ever will. The main thing for me was it just seemed to "fit" correctly, which was the biggest revelation. The newest one has different geometry etc. but well worth checking out - as would the other bikes in the range, so as other people have said, give them a call - great people to deal with.

@joebristol: That's interesting to hear about the Kona. That would tend to support the idea that short chainstays are a key to the "playful" feel, although the Kona bikes also tend to be long.

@martinkiely: it sounds as though we are in a similar position and it's interesting that you went for what is basically an enduro bike. I think there is a lot of sense in this even though it might seem like a lot of bike.

I guess I need to decide how much I want that extra stability and whether I'm prepared to pay the price of a less playful feel. I wouldn't rule out some demos, but I'm still ambivalent about them. Taking the FlareMax as an example I'm sure it would feel great and I'm also sure I would find it a bit harder to move it about. I find that's the case whenever I switch bikes, even to something that is theoretically easier to manual. Unless a bike feels the same as my current bike (in which case it would be pointless changing) it just takes me time to get used to the different timing required. Give me a few weeks/months to get used to it and I can tell you whether it is going to suit me, but on the first ride all I can say is that some things are easier and some things are harder. That's assuming that simple things like the tyres and suspension setup suit me. If not, all bets are off.

29er for sure, I suggest a Smuggler 😉

You should check out Whyte. Easy to find demos and very very good in all guises I've tried (4 or 5 now).

I'm moving on a T-129 as its just more bike than I need but I've been startled by how un-29er it feels, how it climbs pretty well for the weight and the control down hill. It's a cracking bike for what you're decribing, though the current T-130 would be my first option to check.

You should check out Whyte. Easy to find demos and very very good in all guises I’ve tried (4 or 5 now).

I’m moving on a T-129 as its just more bike than I need but I’ve been startled by how un-29er it feels, how it climbs pretty well for the weight and the control down hill. It’s a cracking bike for what you’re decribing, though the current T-130 would be my first option to check.

As it happens this was what I was referring to with :

I’ve been blown away by some cheaper bikes… they just worked for me.   I’ve then tried one of the more expensive (mid-range) ones from the same brand and found I was blown away too.  Other bike’s I’ve tried have been OK but not inspired my confidence.

However, I also think it has to work for the person... I tried the cheap Whyte hard tails and then the T-130 .. other than the tyres that come stock this makes me feel confident though riding at Swinley the tyres don't matter much whereas when I get to places with steep descents the stock tyres scare the life out of me.

I had

- Mark 1 aeris. Brilliant bike. Great company. In the end tho (and I kept it two years) decided it was too much bike for me. It got properly fun when I got properly scared

- FlareMax (original both chubby and 29). Loved this bike. From the demo it felt just right. Rode it everywhere including Antur and BPW. With standard shock. Was going to get an upgrade but then bought

- Mojo 3 (2nd hand). And I loved that a bit more. Definitely brought my riding on. Just felt like i could go faster without thinking I was about to bin it. I did break my hand in spain but to be fair no bike would have saved me from that ineptitude 😉

- Smuggler 2017.  This should ride the same as the FlareMax. Numbers/Geo similar. It doesn’t tho. I prefer it and I don’t know why.  I don’t find I need to push it tho to make it fun. I really want a carbon one.

Not sure that helps but… anyway if you were interested in a 2nd Hand Flare Max let me know (worth Stealth Advert ever..)

I'd try putting a fork on the Dude first, with some 4" Minions, tubeless, perhaps 8+9 PSI.   And a dropper.

The Dude has had a dropper since day one. I can’t imagine riding any bike off-road without one now to be honest. It had a Bluto suspension fork last summer but it is back rigid now. With the suspension fork it is a better trail bike but still no substitute for a decent full suss. Don’t get me wrong, I love it, but I love it as an addition to a regular trail bike rather than as a replacement.

@Alex: fascinating thanks. So the best option is the bike I sold last year. Or maybe the best bike is just the newest one 🙂 Actually I fear there may be some truth in than in my case.

@roverpig - I’m a terrible bike changer, but what I’ve come to enjoy is the journey not the destination 🙂 I wasn’t ever that bothered about numbers, other than finding frames which fit my gibbon like proportions. I was surprised tho how two bikes with very similar geo rode so differently.

Thinking about it again, the Cotic felt spot on straight away but it took me a while to get used to the Smuggler. Maybe that’s why going back to the Flare Max was a bit odd.

Dunno: anyway hope you find something that suits!

Absolutely. I like to agonise over which bike to get. But the truth is, whatever I get, I'll be lusting after something else in a year or two. All part of the fun.

It's interesting that the bike that felt best straight away wasn't the one that was best in the long run. Another argument against the value of test rides, or maybe we're both just weird 🙂

I can certainly answer that for myself in the affirmative 🙂

So you're thinking of buying one of the new FlareMax and potentially selling in a year or so?

Too early for dibbs?

😉

I've been a shameless bike swapper too, TBH I make you look like a rank amateur, and I think there's a "grass is greener" effect when you settle on one type of geometry. The next bike feels "better" because of the novelty of more playfulness or more stability, but that soon wears off and the cycle begins again (pun intended).

@chakaping - OK, I'll put you on the interested list 🙂 As you say, I'm actually a bit of a lightweight in the bike swapping stakes. Just like to talk about it a lot.

@Alex - Absolutely. Who wants to be normal 🙂

Your comments on the Mojo 3 have thrown a bit of a spanner in the works. I see that sort of bike as being the alternative to something like the new FlareMax, but a very different beast. Relatively short (by modern standards) reach. Short chainstays. Balanced and playful. That's pretty much my dilemma at the moment. Do I want something long and slack that I can just monster-truck through stuff, or something balanced and playful, so I can work on my skills and try to hop and manual my way down technical stuff. My heart says the latter, but my head says "forget it".

I think maybe as others have said, you want to avoid the extremes... The current uber long trend hadn’t quite arrived when I got my Tallboy 3, but it is a good bike at just about everything.

Personally, I prefer it with Plus wheels, but I reckon with some quality 29er wheels, it would do a pretty good job of fast/far.

I reckon the Trek EX would be similar, and having owned an ABP Fisher Roscoe one, I know the rear suspension works for me

I think there are too many variables to lay handling characteristics at the door of one element - eg short chainstays? My Singular Buzzard, has 420mm chainstays, but a steeper h/a and shorter wheelbase than is currently fashionable. With a 60mm stem on, it is both playful and stable

@roverpig - I like all my bikes, but I like the Mojo3 a bit more. I’d run it year round on the chubby tyres but the clearance is terrible. In fact it’s a pretty rubbish UK winter bike. But I’ll put up with all of that because the other three seasons - and trips away - it’s the bike I’ll always ride for preference.

Chuck Ibis did an interesting interview when it was launched. His view was that for the ‘average’ rider too long and too slack was a disadvantage as that average rider couldn’t make the most of when that Geo really makes sense. I’ve no idea if that’s true, but the Mojo3 is the bike that I’ve been riding on fairly scary stuff.

Bottom of the ranger path I knew it was a keeper!

Chuck Ibis did an interesting interview when it was launched. His view was that for the ‘average’ rider too long and too slack was a disadvantage as that average rider couldn’t make the most of when that Geo really makes sense.

I can see how there could be some merit in that as not everyone has the confidence (or desire) to get forward to load the front of a LLS bike. I know it's something I had to learn. But it begs the question what is an average rider and what are they riding trails wise? Trail center reds? Are they happy at that level, or do they want to go faster and/or steeper? As a decidedly average riding coward I don't like going too fast (seem to have a mental speed block when it gets proper fast) but am increasing pushing my limits in terms of steep (around the FOD so I'm sure you know what I mean) and I certainly like the security blanket feeling offered by my long(ish) and slack(ish) Bird. Maybe I could ride the same on a shorter steeper bike (better riders certainly do) but would I? Probably not, at least not until I have ridden it on my LLS security blanket to convince myself I can do it. I am riding some things on my old school geometry hardtail that I wouldn't have previous to riding them on my Bird first. Skills progression or just gaining confidence, probably a bit of both.

No point to make just some musings 🙂

My Bird Aeris 120

@mark90 - I know what you mean. For the past year I've been swapping between my fatbike (the ultimate monster truck and with a reach of 455mm and 440mm chainstays, quite long) and my old 26" Five (short reach and 425mm chainstays). They are both viable options, but a number of times I've rolled up to stuff that I've never had the nerve to ride before on the fatbike (expecting to get off) but almost without thinking I find myself pushing the front into it and riding through. I'll go back later on the Five and ride it just fine, but only because I now know that I can.

The final nail in the coffin for the Five though was when I realised that I could actually go round corners faster on the longer bike. Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense, but it seemed to be the case.