[Closed] helmets with (chin guard extension)

you mean like

[url= http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/product/661compiifullfacehelmet.aspx?&id=11807 ]http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/catalog/womenshelmets.aspx?&cid=3133[/url]

or

[url= http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/catalog/womenshelmets.aspx?&cid=3133 ]http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/catalog/womenshelmets.aspx?&cid=3133[/url]

eye yep i just had alook at those ! thankyou.... didnt actually know they did full face for women....lol ... cheers...

Or one of these?
[img] [/img]

Be aware anne that the chinbars are not included in testing, there are anecdotes ( not real data) about the chinbars on those met helmets fracturing and they will increase tthe rotational impact risk. Also none that I have seen have polystyrene in the chinbar ecept the casco viper - no poly = no impact absorbtion.

Mptorcycle helmets have developed so the chinbar is right next to your chin when the helmet is on purely to reduce the rotational impact risk and the risk of your facce hitting the chinbar hard as the helmet rotates.

mets are nice well vented and light, took a few knocks that would have had been nastier without.

A full-on full-face helmet will not be too comfortable to ride in for a long time, or even a short time if you're working hard. The Specialized Deviant is probably the best vented option out there.

Lighter-weight alternatives will be more comfortable but will not offer anywhere near the same amount of protection. I personally own a Met Parachute which mostly gets used without the chin guard and I have a proper full-facer for anything properly extreme like 4X or DH. Sometimes I choose to run the chin-piece on the Parachute too although I am well aware of the minimal extra protection and assosciated risks. Its nice to have options.

@ TJ "they will increase tthe rotational impact risk"
but thats true of all helmets to an extent, and then you've got the whole argument about whether people wearing helmets take more risks... 😈

http://www.rutlandcycling.com/9173/MET-Parachute-Helmet.html

or these are light and loads of vents

http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=14289

[img] [/img]
br />
I've got one of those. Very comfy. Very cool (take that any way you want). Provides some protection against vigorously rubbing your face on gravel, which is nice.

Mine going strong too. A mate in Morzine had one, and I saw it save his face when he hit 2nd jump of the day....and his front wheel fell out (check your QRs kids!).

Not had a big crash in mine yet, but it's more reassuring than normal XC lid for your face. Got a FF too, but I didn't know what Elaine was really after

And there is a little bit of EVA foam in the sides of the chinbar.

You may 'feel' its more reassuring, but its completely pointless in a real life situation. You will end up with a damaged chin from the chin bit and a twisted neck from it rotating.

If you go over the bars your going to land on your hands first, not your chin.

Would you say that compared to a normal XC lid?
And I've had crashes without time to put my hands out.

If you go over the bars your going to land on your hands first, not your chin.

Have a look to see how many mx, or motorbike riders wear open face helmets (with good reason). If you're going to wear a helmet you need one that offers some face protection, otherwise I don't see the point. I [b]always[/b] land on my face.

You may 'feel' its more reassuring, but its completely pointless in a real life situation. You will end up with a damaged chin from the chin bit and a twisted neck from it rotating.

Mmmm , not sure about that , I had a nasty off a few years ago at Sherwood pines on one of the dual descender courses wearing a Giro switchblade and landed face first all i got was a bit of mud scraped into my face by the chin gaurd.
I'm pretty sure that wearing a standard helmet would've resulted in lost facial skin at the very least as the crash was enough to snap one of the shift levers on my xtr shifters.

I wouldn't recommend one of those helmets they are just insubstantial.

You'd be better thinking about what you've done to send you over the bars. It's probably wrong body positioning or inappropriate braking. We all go over the bars now and again welcome to the club. 🙂

The one clear thing about FF cycle helmets is that there is no testing or standards for the chinbar and no real data about them out there.

I personally would never wear a met parachute - from what I know about helmets the chin bar is positivly dangerous.

If you want a half way house helmet the casco viper seems like a good bet ( are they still made????)

I don't think cycle FF helmets are up to much anyway - they look like mortorcycle helmets of 30 yrs ago with the chinbar sitting so far forward and with no poly foam in the chin.

yeh the helmets above are called MET-parashoot i think, can find them one crc, its simular to what ron has but tbh i think there more dangerous as they could easily break and probaly go straight through your windpipe lol

The one clear thing about FF cycle helmets is that there is no testing or standards for the chinbar and no real data about them out there.

Is there not a specific downhill helmet standard?

last big off I had, I used my head as a brake, and I still wouldn't consider one of those helmets...

Agree with Ed-O, examine why you came off in the first place

Mathew - not that I am aware of. Helmets are tested in a very easy to pass manner and the testing is only on the main part of the shell.

Very very basic tests

Also none that I have seen have polystyrene in the chinbar ecept the casco viper - no poly = no impact absorbtion.

I wouldn't take much notice about TJ. He's a bit of an anti helmet, plus the chin guard must have a use, otherwise motorcycle helmet wouldn't have one (oh and I have seen a friend of mine breaking a tooth during a fall).

Anyway back to topic. The deviant carbon is the best bet at the moment.

You may 'feel' its more reassuring, but its completely pointless in a real life situation. You will end up with a damaged chin from the chin bit and a twisted neck from it rotating.

balls!! chin survived fine, better than if it had smashed into the floor

I wouldn't recommend one of those helmets they are just insubstantial.

Still quite substantial, gave up trying to break mine after 2 years

I personally would never wear a met parachute - from what I know about helmets the chin bar is positivly dangerous.

Seen no real life evidence to back this up EVER. Owned a Giro Switchblade, MET Parachute & Specialized Deviant. Crashed heavy in the head area on all 3. All did their job.

Juan - Forgot the switchblade. Thats a poly chinbar is it not? The chinbar on a quality motorcycle helmet has the poly in it and sits much closer to your chin - thus it has some effectiveness.

Mikew

There is some evidence but not of high quality. Anecdote is not evidence.

Oh dear. I shall endeavour to crash more to help the evidence base.

And I've had crashes without time to put my hands out.

Me too 🙁 . . . oh wait, I bruised my knuckles too.

[img] ?rot=0[/img]

Personally I'd go for a more substantial full-face rather than the Met (there've been a few threads about these in the past with varying opinions). I tend to wear a pi$$pot most of the time and full-face occasionally for d/h (as I ride to the trails I have a ladies Dakine Drafter hydration pack with a carry flap for a full-face). Of course on Saturday I was wearing neither 🙄 . . . you live and learn, eh?

can you do it in a double blind controlled manner please or I shall have to discount it 🙂

i feel the only answer is to throw crash test dummies down rock gardens, any one want to join in?

Sorry - been busy for a bit. Jeremy - have a look here...

[url= http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm ]ASTM F1952[/url]

this specification requires greater impact protection and provides performance criteria for chin bars on full-face helmets

Interesting - so could meet downhill spec without being full face

The ambient test helmet shall be subjected to the chin bar impact test.

It would be interesting to see if the MET Parachute meets this standard (cannot find info on the MET site). If it does then we can all finally know if a parachute is as good as a proper full facer. The Specialized one linked to above appears to meet the standard.

matthewlhome

Interesting - every day is a school day!

Thaats not a part of the legal testing standards as in CE but is an additional standard over and above the legal standard testing. Is that correct? Is it used in the UK?

I would love to see a full copy but am not paying that much.

Thanks

no I was too tight to do that too! Would be curious to know if all full face helmets meet that standard. I would assume that to race downhill one would need to use a helmet that meets this standard?

You may 'feel' its more reassuring, but its completely pointless in a real life situation. You will end up with a damaged chin from the chin bit and a twisted neck from it rotating.

If you go over the bars your going to land on your hands first, not your chin

Is any of that based on fact?

I have a Met parachute and wore it in the pyrenees this summer. I found it light, comfortable for all day riding and the chin guard definitely provides some moderate protection (although in no way should it be considered a full face helmet) I face planted whilst riding of a 4 ft high terrace and DIDN'T LAND ON MY HANDS. My face was what hit the very rocky ground first. I am 15st and the helmet did not break. It did not "penetrate my windpipe" or "rotate" in any way. What it did do is save my grid from a mullering.

I have read so many negative comments about these helmets from people who DON'T OWN ONE and think that this is predominantly based on the fact that they look different. I personally probably wouldn't wear mine for the majority of riding I do but they definitely do provide some additional face protection.

The chinbar having the potential to cause rotational forces is based on fact.

rather the chin bar exerting rotational force than my chin exerting (admittedly less) force

Bregante

Thats the trade off and unfortunately it cannot be quantified as we just don't have the data.

You exchange the risk of losing skin or teeth for the risk of breaking your neck - and what level these risks are is unknown.

the amount of spinal injuries scares me - but its still a very small number and again its not known how many of them the helmets played a part

Don't really see how the chinbar can provide much more leverage than your own chin?
Or do you think we should leave the chin/teeth as a crumple zone?

I accept your point and I wasn't having a go at you personally but I have seen so many posts (mainly from people who have never owned one) which glibly state that the chin guard [u]will[/u] break and cause untold damage to your face/decapitate you/puncture your windpipe etc, yet I have never heard from anybody that this has happened to (unilkely that I would hear from someone who was decapitated tho :lol:)

I don't really like the look of them and you do feel a bit of a tw4t wearing one. I haven't worn mine this year in the UK apart from the first time I rode the Innerleithen XC trail as somebody warned me it was tricky in places but as far as providing some additional face protection, particularly if riding somewhere new/technical/necky then I would say they are worth considering.

ooOOoo

because it is effectively a lever - yur head has radius of what - 120 mm roughly - the chinbar increases significantly this so any force acting tangentally to your head is increased if it hits the chinbar not the chin

Don't really see how the chinbar can provide much more leverage than your own chin?

to be fair- that's just physics. The chin bar protrudes several inches more than your chin, therfore increasing the "leverage" - unless you're Jimmy Hill 😆

I would say by the time the chin bar is pressed aginst your chin, it's an extra 20mm/15% at most. They don't stick out as much as FF. A direct face plant would send the forces perpendicularly through the centre of your head.

I use mine like you Bregante. It's extra protection for XC stuff where you feel nervous. I wear a FF for DH. Never heard any of these horror stories come true either!

ooOOoo - thats not when it increases the rotational force - its tangential or oblique blows not straight on ones.

there is also the effect that skin slides over bone so dissipates the force - the hard plastic of the chinbar does not do this

all shown experimentally.

I see your point, but crashes are random messy events.
My friend's helmet was cracked after, so I imagine some of the forces were dissipated through the chinbar into the helmet, not his chin.

There definately is an possibly increased risk from the rotational forces the chinbar can impose. But, this was one of the arguments that was used to try to resist mandatory motorbike helmets "They'll cause lots of broken necks". The theory's sound but the real life impact (no pun intended) hasn't really borne out that there's a major risk. Obviously motorbike and pushbike use doesn't directly compare in a lot of ways, but it's one of the few useful parallels we have.

(TJ might well say "motorcycle chinbars don't stick out as far". It's true, but the difference is marginal and the difference in impact speeds more than makes up for that difference, you're never likely to hit your face at 100mph in a Parachute)

It's also no more risk than with any proper full face helmet- so would the people saying the Met is dangerous say the same applies to a Deviant, or a Rampage, or a D2? Perhaps they would but you don't see a lot of DHers with that opinion.

(for the record I don't own and don't intend to own a Parachute 😉 But not because I consider them useless or dangerous)

Fair comment northwind - motorcycle helmets are also much smoother shells

What I dislike about the met parachute are 3 things - the general case about ff helmets, the fact that the chinbar has all those holes and angles to catch on things and the fact that it is made of plastic with no poly to absorb impact.

its only opinion tho. a fair amount of reading and data behind it but it remains opinion

As for neck breaks - a couple of folk on her have had fractures ( but no nerve involvement) and that doc from the southern general hospital recorded IIRC 8 serious spinal injuries from MTBers. Thats enough to scare me

Yup, but then most of those people will be sustaining those injuries with standard helmets (or in some cases possibly with no helmets at all). Some might even be lower spine injuries so not influenced at all by helmet use. I know you probably know this, more stating it for the jury 😉

The polystyrene in the chinbar of a motorbike helmet doesn't do much fwiw, the impact absorption from a frontal hit comes mainly from shell deformation, and from the foam elsewhere. The poly only really comes into play when it's in contact with something solid, ie, a head. The poly layer in the front of my Arais is vestigal, and even then it's hollow as it's full of vents.