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The addition of two inches of crumple zone would seem to me to reduce deceleration on the brain
Whether or not that reduction will be in any way meaningful is of course where the debate comes in. Also as far as incidents with a car (or other vehicle) are concerned, there is also the issue of injuries to internal organs, but hey lets not complicate things by considering all the possible consequences.
By all means wear a helmet if you consider the risk to be worth it but leave others to make up their own minds too.
Edit.
Although it is curious why you wouldn't apply the same logic to any other similar situations.
The logic for me is quite different. I make a living and support my family by thinking about things with my brain and predominantly communicating those valuable thoughts by typing them into a computer with my hands.
In order to protect these valuable money spinning assets of mine whilst carrying out WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE any activities that might be risky, I wear the appropriate protection.
I have spent the vast majority of my adult working life on building sites and am obliged to wear a helmet and gloves and boots and glasses and hi viz clothing although my personal exposure to risk is statistically miniscule.
When i'm working in the garden, i'll wear boots / gloves as appropriate.
When I drive I wear a seatbelt, have traction control / airbags switched on.
Given my averse attitude to personal risk it is significant, TO ME, that of all the potentially hazardous activities that I carry out, tho only time i've sustained any injuries was when I went OTB 4 weeks ago and broke two ribs because a dog ran in front of me.
You do what you like. Every time I ride my bike I'm wearing a helmet.... and gloves.
The addition of two inches of crumple zone would seem to me to reduce deceleration on the brain.
Depends if it crumples. It doesn't take much energy to split a piece of polystyrene.
I wear a helmet when I am out on a proper ride (MTB) but I doubt the effectiveness of these pie crusts on my head. I think it saves you from certain cuts and scrapes, but don't feel that a broken lid signifies any great saving to life, they break pretty easy it's part of the design.
Speaking with a paramedic who has attended 50+ bike accidents some fatal. Her opinion was that the wearing of a helmet can greatly increase the chance of a broken neck, the increased forces are exponential radially and lets face it a broken neck is a game changer, the new MIPS system goes some way to address the issue (internal slip plain) but they are a long way form the safety status people choose to believe and can cause more harm than good.
Al as I said, probably. I had a fractured temple, fractured cheekbone, blown out eye socket, fractured maxilla. But above the helmet line, just crushing of the shell. Helmets shouldn't really split but crush to slow deceleration. Mine did just that, and I'm pleased with its performance. I've had other spills racing, one of which did save a back of the head bang onto road, but again, I don't make huge claims regarding life-saving, nor would I describe myself as a zealot. Personal choice for adults is my view.
Still glad I was wearing it 😉 just wish I'd been wearing wrist guards too!
molgrips - MemberNot sure about that. The addition of two inches of crumple zone would seem to me to reduce deceleration on the brain. You'd have to come up with a very good argument why it *wouldn't* help to convince me.
That's not what I said 😕 I was pointing out that the KSI stats already show cycling to be a safe activity, but that you also need to take into account how specific the job helmets do is- they can't stop all head-related KSIs and they do nothing for anything else. So you're looking then at a fraction of a small number.
I seem to remember that somebody came up with a figure of 16 deaths a year
A helmet won't help you in an accident with another vehicle ?
Here is as much as I know of my anecdote . I was ridding along in a bus lane a car came in at 90 degrees hitting me side on , I was then physically upside down looking through the windscreen then on the bonnet for aprox 8 yards then in the sideroad the car had been aiming for. to put it mildly I felt in a bad way but luckily had only soft tissue injuries and abrasions to legs and head.
My helmet had a dint in the side from a side impact from the car while I was in the air and coming down (according to the witness) and a massive flat patch on the top from my full on landing on the top of my head.
Anecdotally but for the helmet I would not be typing this or I would have something more than mild dyslexia to blame my bad typing on.
Anyone got any good stats on the incidence of head injury in reported cycling accidents where the rider wore a helmet versus those that didn't?
Some people do seem to miss the difference between probability and risk. Yes, you are very, very unlikely to be involved in an accident that could result in a head injury. However, common sense suggests the risk of injury to your head if you are and weren't wearing a helmet is high. Does this have any basis in fact? The stats would help, but my instinct still says wear a helmet.
Anecdotally, I know of two people involved in road cycling accidents where their head met the tarmac. The one with a helmet got up and dusted himself off, the other spent a week in a Coma.
When I had a big off and punctured a lung, the Doctors were more concerned about whether I'd been wearing a helmet. The obvious injury I presented was relatively easy to treat, their concern lay with 'hidden' damage from possible head trauma. I was wearing a lid, I have no idea if I hit my head - the lid was scuffed but everything hurt, the Doctors were satisfied I'd done no damage. I'm glad I had it on.
That's not what I said
I know.
they can't stop all head-related KSIs and they do nothing for anything else
But they can stop or mitigate SOME ksis?
molgrips - MemberBut they can stop or mitigate SOME ksis?
Yep, of course. That is exactly what I'm saying.
Thought I'd post this to show what a helmet that did not save my life looks like after impact. Rear helmet, 20 mph impact with the side of a 4x4 was at the right temple at the Giro logo. No shattering, nothing dramatic, but if you look closely, you'll see the crushed cells under the shell. If you add a little force, you'll also find a crack through at the point of impact - but nothing again, dramatic. It's comfortable, fits me well and did what I expected. If you wear one, make sure it fits properly. If you don't, watch out for Mercedes ML's turning right 😉
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@TallPaul. Why not apply that sam logic to many othe things we do in day to day life. The P of hittign ones head when workign on a step ladder is or walking is small but if you do fall the risk of having head injery is higher if you don't ware a helmet. What you are really reffering to is the P(seriosue head injery|you have fallen off a bike and hit your head). Even this is quite samll. Waring helmet is fine, but not warign one is not massive irrisponsible risk. Espcialy when compared to many other activites where one would not consider waring a helmet in most situations.
Having read a fair bit of the thread, all I can surmise is that there is no other topic that will make intelligent people irrational (see use of "anecdotally") and bring out ad hominem withing single figures of posts.
So much for intelligent debate.
helmets increase the risk of injury. All the riders I have known who have had serious head injuries have been wearing a lid.
Steer well clear, proper dangerous things.
@TheBrick, to an extent I do apply the same logic to a myriad of situations. However, with cycling a large proportion of the risk is out of your control. I could ride sensibly, wear visible clothing, have a well maintained bike and still another road user could cause me to have an off. I don't actually worry about any sort of accident, least of all one caused by my own neglect or stupidity. Such an iostensibly reasonable step in mitigating risk really doesn't take much thought or effort.
I also fail to see where the debate is warranted. The wearing of a helmet, just like riding at all is personal choice. I don't judge others or question their motivations. But I'm happy to discuss my own.
I've not read all that. Have we solved the internet helmet debate?
A friend fractured their skull while not wearing a helmet. She was walking her dog so now I always wear a helmet while walking the dog, but not for walking to the shop.
I couldn't give a toss if any of you wear a helmet or not.
If I see you on the ground after a crash all I need are your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle/Audi.
Oh and your wallet.
However, with cycling a large proportion of the risk is out of your control.
Same goes for plenty other activities we don't wear helmets for. Statistically cycling is safe. Of course we all have different levels of skill and different riding environments.
If you think cycling is dangerous wearing a helmet won't make it safe.
The TRL review suggested that helmets might save 10-16% of fatalities. If I think an activity is dangerous then someone saying "here, wear this, it's now 16% safer" isn't going to make me feel safe.
http://road.cc/content/news/12058-ctc-slams-transport-research-laboratory-cycle-helmet-report
Here's my anecdote to add to the 'evidence' pile.
I don't know anyone who has died from a cycling injury. There have been many concussions, lacerations, and all the other injuries you can get from hitting your head, some of them serious, but I don't know anyone who has actually died.
My neighbor slipped on ice on the steps outside his front door and bumped his head. He seemed fine but died the next day from a brain hemorrhage.
The question you have to ask is, if Brandon had been wearing a helmet would he be here right now telling us all about the time a helmet saved his life?
A practical question, what do helmet wearers do with your helmet when you go to the shops?
Do you carry it around with you? If so, do you put your basket or your helmet down when you pick up a carton of milk.
Do you put it in your basket? If so, do you find it limits the amount of food you can buy in a single trip.
Do you leave it outside attached to your bike? If so, are you comfortable with the fact that someone might damage it while you're away? After all, as helmet manufacturers are always telling us, you can't tell from the outside if a helmet is damaged or not.
I started considering wearing a helmet after my last accident since it resulted in four stitches in my forehead and five to stitch my ear back together. In the end I decided it was a better idea to just avoid drinking ten pints and cycling home so now I take the bus after a night out.
what do helmet wearers do with your helmet when you go to the shops?
Either leave it on my head if it's a quick trip, or put it in the trolley if it's a big trip, sometimes I leave it in the trailer, and no I can't say I've ever worried about some miscreant damaging my helmet while I'm in the shops.
Does this really require that much thought?
Does this really require that much thought?
I was taking the piss a bit but yes, I think it should take a bit of thought. Bicycle helmets are very fragile and much more susceptible to damage than most people think, damage that you can't see.
Maybe I'm being overly cautious but I'm very anal about taking car of my helmets when they're not on my head. I once binned a helmet because my bike fell over onto it. I don't even think the frame made contact but why take the risk?
I just hope that people who use helmets for everyday activity take into account the damage that normal wear and tear can cause. I would say it's worth having a cheap helmet that gets replaced often for everyday riding and a good one for when you go mountain biking that you treat like the delicate flower it is.
Or just don't bother using a helmet for everyday activity.
I have it hanging from my elbow generally. It's not an issue for me. Sometimes if I only want a few things I use it as the basket.
It is probably better to use it as a basket than a helmet. It would at least save your delicate goods from damage as it is actually designed to deal with a drop from a few feet and tested for that.
So you really think that because it's only tested for light impacts, it's going to be useless for anything else?
Funny that no-one argues about people wearing knee pads, isn't it? Seems perfectly reasonable to want to protect your knees and elbows from being cut up when you hit the deck, but apparently not your head?
what do helmet wearers do with your helmet when you go to the shops?
Mate of mine left his motorbike helmet locked to his bike whilst he was in the shops.
Came out to find someone had put a 99 ice cream in it 😆
Hope he remembered to say thank you 🙂
I organised a socials evening ride to a couple of pubs recently. One participant greated me with "where's your helmet then?!!" as I arrived and I replied with a friendly "****sitgottadowithyou?".
The ride got off to a slightly frosty start but we were all friends again after a couple of pints. The irony of which was not lost on me, but may have been on him.
This is a head v. van helmet. The docs said it saved his life. To a degree how would they know. However the picutre was taken at a centre where they deal with lots of head trauma so I guess they start to build up an idea of what type of impact kills you and what doesnt..
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Re knee and elbow pads... just what are they there for? Is it literally just to stop you grazing your skin? They are not going to stop a twisted knee or broken bone etc...
[quote=molgrips ]Funny that no-one argues about people wearing knee pads, isn't it? Seems perfectly reasonable to want to protect your knees and elbows from being cut up when you hit the deck, but apparently not your head?
You wear knee pads for riding to the shops? 😯
Funny that no-one argues about people wearing knee pads, isn't it? Seems perfectly reasonable to want to protect your knees and elbows from being cut up when you hit the deck, but apparently not your head?
Who is suggesting that all cyclists should wear knee pads?
I don't wear knee pads either by the way for the same reasons I don't wear a helmet.
having seen a school friend go from being a bouncy happy nutter, to a dribbling vegetable that will need constant care for the rest of his life as a result of crashing a mountain bike without his helmet on, I'll stick a skid lid on thanks.
A helmet would not have stopped the entirety of the injury, but would have significantly reduced the penetration depth and brain insult.
its everyone's personal choice and I would never say that any form of compulsory helmet use would be suitable or sufficient as it detracts from personal accountability and the ability to carry out assessment of risks that we all do everyday.
the picutre was taken at a centre where they deal with lots of head trauma so I guess they start to build up an idea of what type of impact kills you and what doesnt..
People who work in these places often have a skewed view, as they only see the serious cases.
How many people cut grapes in half for their kids? Virtually nobody? My mam does, after working in a treatment centre for people with brain damage and seeing several people in their whose brains were oxygen starved after choking on a grape.
Wow, that helmet's nasty, and to add add insult to injury they've eaten his chips. bastards.
having seen a school friend go from being a bouncy happy nutter, to a dribbling vegetable that will need constant care for the rest of his life as a result of crashing a mountain bike without his helmet on, I'll stick a skid lid on thanks.
I have seen peoples lives ruined by objects falling on them when walking along a street. If this happened to one of your friends would you now be wearing a helmet walking along the street?
A helmet would not have stopped the entirety of the injury, but would have significantly reduced the penetration depth and brain insult.
Did you repeat the crash as a control?
Surgeons are more cautious about what difference a helmet might have made when they give evidence under oath.
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1054.html
A friend of mine died from a head inury after falling on a stone staircase. My thoughts after that were not that a helmet might have saved him but that it was a pity he wore flip flops while carrying a box that obscured his vision.
There were 4 helmeted cyclist killed in this one accident. The fact is if a car hits you at speed there is a risk of death helmet or not.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4592412.stm
Avoiding crashes is the important thing but I see helmeted cyclists riding in the doorzone, filtering at speed through traffic queues etc.
I knew someone who died from a head injury sustained falling down the stairs. Don't recall anyone suggesting that he should've been wearing a helmet.
No, but if we are looking at proportionate risk management, then I would on a construction site where the liklihood and consequence both increase. Its the same for cycling, you may never have an off, but the liklihood and consequnces increase with speed and techical trails so at that point I make an assessment based on my personal judgment. Your assessment may be different and your perception of risk may be different dependant upon experience ( for example as a health and safety expert in particularly dangerous industries, there are things I see as fairly common place and straight forward to manage that you would shite your pants over) dont let stop you from making some general and sweeping point about "you can have an accident anywhere so lets all where helmets" like wot you are intimating that I was suggesting 😆
Irc...Hey thats fine.. my mate will be happy in knowledge that some bloke ikn web says its all bollox...if he had any higher mental funtion now.
[quote=tazzymtb ]Its the same for cycling, you may never have an off, but the liklihood and consequnces increase with speed and techical trails so at that point I make an assessment based on my personal judgment.
I'm not sure anybody here is arguing with that point. I think all of us arguing against their blanket use whilst cycling wear one some or even most of the time whilst cycling (I understand even TJ has been seen wearing one). The argument is against those who suggest that you should wear one for all cycling, when some of us assess the risk just as you do and have determined that for some of our cycling we have no greater a chance of head injury than lots of other things we do without wearing helmets.
A helmet would not have stopped the entirety of the injury, but would have significantly reduced the penetration depth and brain insult.
A thin piece of polystyrene isn't going to stop something penetrating your skull. A helmet only slows down the deceleration of the brain.
What I don't understand is that I don't see much safety data evidence / testing from manufacturers, yet we all will happily go and spend £100 on a helmet over a £15 one. The reality is we buy helmets without knowing how safe they are. We buy them because they look nice and feel comfortable. I have NEVER seen a single review or evidence about 1 helmet being better at protecting your head than another one.