[Closed] Helmets - Again - I know

Wow. You are blaming the helmet?

Look at the bigger picture. Step away from the bike.

Me hitting the back of the van was clearly the main issue here. If I wasn't wearing my helmet I'd have banged my head, but in the opinion of a medical professional, not hard enough to have caused a serious injury.

My bike helmet moving pushed my glasses into my nose, so no I'm not blaming it but it caused more injuries than it prevented.

I know anecdote isn't evidence but I'm just trying to point out it's not as simple as "wear a helmet or you'll die", and using my own experience to show that.

I recently went out with a new road club. On their website they insist anybody riding with them must wear a helmet, or they can`t join the ride.

They all had helmets on - and they needed them on for sure!
Terrible/dangerous road positioning, failing to point out most hazards ...

I came to the conclusion that some people need them more than others!

I wear one for pretty much every ride. I've never thought why, I just do, but let me try here. I think it's more of a "why wouldn't I?" mentality, in my mind it's safer, modern helmets are comfortable, well ventilated and look OK too.

However, it's your call whether you do or not, for me I feel safer and see no downsides, you may disagree and that's fine. I don't think it's something to preach about one way or the other, it's a personal risk assessment and only you can make it.

there is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

here is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

Helmet benefits? Too modest to capture.

http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref

The helmet debate is a great one for people choosing to believe what you want to believe. For some, the effect of a law enacted 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the world represents incontrovertible evidence. For others what happened to their Auntie Agatha when she fell off her bike while pissed represents the same thing. Wear one if you want, or don't. The evidence ain't there either way. Personally I wear one. It doesn't bother me to do so and it [i]might[/i] just save my life, but probably won't.

[quote=poah ]there is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

IME there is no point trying to argue with people who dismiss others with a different POV as being "morons".

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

That's obviously because there are more motorists and pedestrians.. did you not realise that?

Cycling is riskier than walking. You are in traffic all the time, instead of occasionally, and energy is higher because you are moving faster. Hence, helmet. It's not complicated.

The anti brigade are angry about being portrayed as stupid, so are creating an entrenched position, repeating shaky arguments over and over again. They'd probably be reasonable if it weren't for the other side calling them stupid.

I wear one all the time because the reasons not to are not good enough. Simple as that. And if I wear one all the time it ceases to become an issue.

irc - I don't think that link says what you think it says 🙂

IME there is no point trying to argue with people who dismiss others with a different POV as being "morons".

having seen my fair share of people fall off and hurt their heads and my mum having seen a lot being a sister in A&E my evidence points to helmets stopping a lot of minor and major injuries.

If I fall off my bike I would rather not get hurt no matter how small.

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

I wear a seat belt when I'm in a car and if the risk to me falling over while walking was to be that great then yes I would wear a helmet. walking and cycling do not have the same risk.

[quote=poah ]having seen my fair share of people fall off and hurt their heads and my mum having seen a lot being a sister in A&E my evidence points to helmets stopping a lot of minor and major injuries.

Once again the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

[quote=poah ]I wear a seat belt when I'm in a car

Yet more people are admitted to hospital with head injuries from driving whilst wearing a seatbelt than from cycling.

Though I'm pleased to see you entering the debate rather than just flinging around ad-homs.

walking and cycling do not have the same risk.

Well..... they do, but that is because the walking includes a lot of the very young, the very old and the pissed.

27 fatalities per billion km cycling
29 fatalities per billion km walking

[quote=molgrips ]I wear one all the time because the reasons not to are not good enough.

How good are the reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? Or by "all the time" do you also mean whilst doing those things, walking down the stairs and having a shower?

Yet more people are admitted to hospital with head injuries from driving whilst wearing a seatbelt than from cycling.

But only 2 per billion km fatalities. As ever. Use whatever stat suits to support your case.

I'm not thrilled about being called a moron but there you go, with the lack of conclusive evidence ad hominem arguments are to be expected.

[quote=imnotverygood ]But only 2 per billion km fatalities. As ever. Use whatever stats which support your case.

Well what I'm taking from those stats is that if I drive to Cannock to ride FtD then I have a fairly similar (within an order of magnitude) chance of dying due to head injury on both the driving and cycling parts, so if it makes sense to wear a helmet for one part it probably makes sense to wear a helmet for the other part.

The big issue here is that those who think people are morons for not wearing helmets whilst cycling think that because there is some risk, however small, which might be reduced by wearing a helmet. Yet they completely dismiss any risk from doing other activities which they don't choose to wear a helmet for because the risk is lower than it is for cycling (for some definition of "lower").

So which is it going to be? Should you wear a helmet for any activity where there is a risk of head injury? Or should you determine whether to wear one based upon the relative risk? If the latter, how are you determining the required level of risk?

If you look back at the T.D.F its only been the last 15 years or so that they started wearing helmets, prior to that no one did. I have split two over the years with the over the bars experience. Still feel like a nob wearing one on the road bike.

I think as an individual, if there is lack of reliable data, then you just have to go with how you see it. I can tell you now that as a 50 year old car driver, my perception of the risk of me falling off and hurting my head at a trail centre is massively greater than hurting myself on the drive there.

How good are the reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? Or by "all the time" do you also mean whilst doing those things, walking down the stairs and having a shower

I am confident in my ability not to slip in the shower, and not to cross a road without looking. However I am NOT confident in other drivers doing the right thing when I share the road with them on my bike.

If there were no cars on the roads I would not wear a helmet when riding on them.

[quote=imnotverygood ]I think as an individual, if there is lack of reliable data, then you just have to go with how you see it. I can tell you now that as a 50 year old car driver, my perception of the risk of me falling off and hurting my head at a trail centre is massively greater than hurting myself on the drive there.

People are notoriously bad at correctly assessing risk (no insult intended - my instinctive assessments are probably as bad as anybody's). You're probably right, but the stats don't suggest that, and personally I've never damaged a helmet at a trail centre so don't even have any personal anecdotal evidence to rely on.

No-one will ever be right about helmets until proper scientific testing is done rather than purely anecdotal nonsense.
Need a crash test dummy with full head/brain sensors to repeat the numerous types of accidents and falls from a bike. Only when looking at the test result data can anyone then make an informed decision or argument.

Even then a crash test dummy cannot react the same way as a person. I have been knocked off my bike twice and both times damaged hands/arms but not my head. I also spent many years riding BMX and again always protected my head with hands and arms, rolling etc,.

If you think a bit of foam will save your life then good for you, wear a helmet - but don't make everyone wear one.

molgrips - you're not answering the question. What are the good reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? If you wore one all the time to drive, I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue.

Walking - I am less likely to sustain a head injury

Driving - I have other protective equipment

If I may ask a question - can you give me a good reason NOT to wear one?

I've busted two in crashes, saw stars in the 2nd one & was dazed for a bit. Dunno what the outcome would've been if I hadn't been wearing a lid.

I don't see how either of those are good reasons not to wear one (in the latter case we've certainly already established that actually car drivers still get head injuries despite the other protective equipment). Reasons why you might not need to wear one, but not a reason not to wear one.

Though if that is really what you meant, then a good reason not to wear one whilst cycling is that the risk isn't very high.

Yup I've got a good reason - it's completely pointless. Statistcally speaking you're [i]literally[/i] no better off wearing one for cyling on the road at normal commuting speeds in commuter traffic. So why bother? I don't have insurance for personal lightning stikes or wear one walking, driving etc etc. It's a total placebo based on the best current evidence. I had a car crash in my MX5 which wrote it off but I tell you I wouldn't have walked away had I not been wearing my lucky boxer shorts, they 100% saved me, it's completely obvious they did.

For all those 'moron' statements, does the same apply if you're dutch?

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Or are you only a moron for not wearing one in the UK?

if it's the latter then I agree, we are morons for letting our transport infrastructure get to the point where a simple and safe activity like riding a bike* to the shops requires you to wear a protective hat in case someone else drives into you. Think about where the danger is really coming from.

For sport and offroad cycling I think wearing one has a more obvious argument as the risk of a self-induced off is increased and they're useful for both major impacts and minor ones.

* it really is safe, for city utility cycling the chance of a [i]non-vehicle induced[/i] head injury (minor or major) is similar to walking.

** Yes I wear one 99% of the time

If I may ask a question - can you give me a good reason NOT to wear one?

If that is true then you have to weigh the extra risk of getting hit and being saved (or not) by the helmet against the lesser risk of getting hit and being more greatly injured/killed (or not) by not having a helmet. Which is where it gets complicated. FWIW I always wear a helmet for MTB or "proper" road rides but generally not for popping to the shops or my (traffic-free except for a couple of miles) commute. I always wear a hi-vis jersey though (just to throw another spanner in the works).

Would it bother you at all if you learned that Ian Walker's second study on the subject failed to replicate this finding?

No, as it's not the reason I choose not to wear one sometimes.

[quote=amedias ]** Yes I wear one 99% of the time

Oh what a cop out 😉 - I'm still claiming I don't wear one for the majority of my cycling journeys*

[quote=imnotverygood ]Would it bother you at all if you learned that Ian Walker's second study on the subject failed to replicate this finding?

It would bother me about 50% 😉

*read wording very carefully before arguing

Yup I've got a good reason - it's completely pointless.

I disagree. You'll have to do better than any of the currently available studies to prove that hitting your head on tarmac is not made better by covering it with two inches of foam. As detailed in irc's link earlier, the evidence is inconclusive.

does the same apply if you're dutch?

Probably not.

What about the theory that wearing a helmet makes drivers give you less space (and therefore increases your chances of being hit?)

Not good enough for me.

[quote=molgrips ]I disagree. You'll have to do better than any of the currently available studies to prove that hitting your head on tarmac is not made better by covering it with two inches of foam.

Pedestrians also hit their heads on tarmac - is that not made better with some foam? Drivers hit their heads on various hard bits on the inside of their cars - is that not made better with some foam?

I disagree with your "good" reasons not to wear a helmet whilst doing other activities - it appears your reasons for those are relative risk, yet you're not applying similar standards to reasons for not wearing one whilst cycling.

Haven't read all the responses here, but this is my take.

Off-road, definitely without question.

On road, not so sure. The helmet will not prevent much in terms of a car thumping your head, can help with direct contact with the road or kerb though.

It's about being happy with the trade off of potential risk here.

I don't like wearing a helmet for road cycling, and probably only wear one on the road bike for say 10% of the time I ride road.

Thankfully it's still rider choice.

Suppose I'm in the minority these days, but I do get a little fed up of some sanctimonious comments about my choice not to wear one.

Suppose I'm in the minority these days, but I do get a little fed up of some sanctimonious comments about my choice not to wear one.

There are some ****ing tossers out there. I've been "told off" at grizedale a few times for riding round the North Face Trail without a helmet! Not everyone's a middle aged IT manager who can't ride off road without completing a skills course......

On the road I prefer to wear one since you can end up going pretty quick down some hills. Popping into town on the shopping bike; no point.

does the same apply if you're dutch?
Probably not.

Curious, so it's not about helmets, it's about helmets in this specific environment? Kinda puts a different spin on a lot of the arguments doesn't it?

Yeah sorry aracer, it is a cop out but I just don't trust my fellow road using country folk enough not to, which makes me sad 🙁 I have been knocked off before a couple of times, only hit my head once though and to be honest the helmet probably only stopped me leaving some skin on the tarmac rather than offering any impact protection. It's hard to rationalise but I do wear one, I'm not preachy about it though, I'm pro-choice, anti-compulsion.

Off-road it's more about my own stupidity...

Not everyone's a middle aged IT manager who can't ride off road without completing a skills course......

The most sanctimonious comment on STW ever.

It's your head mate, and I'm glad the sheer size of it has kept you on the bike so far. Of course it's your choice not to protect it, but if you think lack of skills is the only thing that'll have you off a bike you must be very naive.

i wear a helmet for my kids sake, if it means not leaving my kids with no father then its worth it to me, i couldnt care less about what i look like, because i look and act stupid without it on anyway, btw ive been knocked off my bike six times during my 40 yrs of cycling, so i tend to cycle on the pavement as much as possible, its safer to have an argument with a pedestrian than over a ton of metal and rubber

[quote=steviecapt ]i wear a helmet for my kids sake, if it means not leaving my kids with no father then its worth it to me

So you also wear one whilst walking, driving and using the stairs?

I'd just like to say a racer, that I've had two serious accidents involving my head on a bike. I've not yet done so whilst walking, driving or walking down the stairs. Still time though I guess, eh.

Pedestrians also hit their heads on tarmac

But as I said - there are no cars on the pavements. No-one to knock me off, and I won't fall over on my own.

Let's get a few things clear, shall we?

1) You seem to think my head is as much at risk whilst walking as it is whilst cycling - yes? MY head, not a statistical average head.

2) You also seem to think that my head is at similar risk in a car. That's MY head in MY car with all its protective features - yes?

Both of those things need evidence. And I mean evidence that relates specifically to people and cars just like me and mine. So subtract pissed people (and the rest) from the walking stats and subtract crappy old cars and boy racers from the car stats.

3) Do you think that hitting a bare head on tarmac is no different to one protected by two inches of foam? Why? Surely you're not playing the rotational injury card?

If you're going to keep banging on and on and on and ****ing ON about climbing the stairs and driving, you'll need to show me exactly why it's more dangerous FOR ME. Your constant repetition without adding anything to the debate is really getting old.

For me its quite simply "I'd rather wear one and not need it, than not wear one and need it".

As a comparison we could all get by walking round with no shoes on, however most people do wear shoes? Why because amongst other things they help protect you feet from cuts from glass,stones, infection from standing in something you would rather not etc.

To the OP if you see the benefit/dangers for wearing one off road I cant quite see why your so averse to wearing one on road, hitting the pavement at 20mph will probably do as much damage as hitting a tree at the same speed.

The most sanctimonious comment on STW ever.

It's your head mate, and I'm glad the sheer size of it has kept you on the bike so far.

😀 sorry. The chap did say something really cocky and tried to sound like a smart arse. I didn't have a witty come back and I think I'm still a bit riled by it.

I have fallen off and concussed myself a few times; I think it's much more likely when you're pushing your limits. And if your limits are the North Face trail at grizedale, or the Pleney run in Morzine; always make sure you wear a helmet.

[quote=molgrips ]1) You seem to think my head is as much at risk whilst
walking as it is whilst cycling - yes?

No.

You're completely missing the point - I did try and explain earlier. You (and steviecapt amongst others) are being absolutist about wearing helmets on bikes. There is some risk, there is some chance of a helmet helping, therefore you see no good reason not to wear one for the very small chance that it will help you.

Yet it seems you don't apply the same criteria to other activities. In those cases you say "the risk is small". Well some of us also consider the risk sufficiently low for cycling.

You can't have it both ways - if you're going to be absolutist for wearing one whilst cycling, then exactly the same arguments apply for other activities where there is some risk, even if the risk is different. If you want to argue you don't need one for other activities because the risk is low (despite clearly existing), then you have to accept that some other people also consider the risk sufficiently low for some cycling activities (I'd happily argue that some of the time I don't wear one I am at no more risk of head injury than you are whilst walking).

So subtract pissed people (and the rest) from the walking stats and subtract crappy old cars and boy racers from the car stats.

What about the cycling stats? Can we subtract the young, the elderly, the inexperienced, the drunk, the reckless from those? I'm happy to accept that your personal risk whilst walking is low, but not so sure you've accurately assessed your personal risk whilst driving compared to your personal risk whilst cycling.

I think its an amazing testament to the success of the cycling helmet that their widespread use has reduced the risk of dying from a head injury whilst cycling down to that of the level of walking. GO HELMETS!