Idly browsing last night and took a look at the Swarf website. Ooh….new frames! Both look like updated, longer travel versions of the Contour. Glad to see they have kept the same silhouette. Hands down my favourite looking frame. Anybody got a 155 on order? Anyone need any body parts so I can put a deposit down on a 130?
2.5 k frame only no shock ?
Wow.
Would look good as a mullet mind
Made by one bloke though so not exactly firing them out. Plus looks like a hardtail so even better!
Any links for the lazy?
Love these frames. Developed his own chainstay slapper thing with a built in cable guide jobbie.
Shame I've got a rocketmax on order 👀
I'm loving these. Just the weight... I dont think I'm strong enough to haul it round
As well as looking mighty fine, the 155 is very close to the geometry I'd choose myself.
Really impressed with the attention to detail, including sharing the frame weight (3.7kg with everything apart from shock).
2.5 k frame only no shock ?
Doesn't look so bad now mainstream brand prices have gone so high.
That looks really lovely. Weight isn't that bad for the intended purpose - add 500-600g for something like a Fox X2 and that's ballpark weight.
the price looks really bad when you dive into warranty details.....max user weight kitted up of 90kgs!
The bikes sure do look nice but it's a bit of a poor design and testing regime if you can't make a steel frame and stand behind it's strength unless you weigh under 14stone
The frames are thoroughly tested, maybe look into the current tube supply issues if you want an insight into prices. BTR aren't that far off the mark either.
90kg is also over 14 stone, I'd suggest that's not really an unreasonable limit for a trail bike.
90kg is also over 14 stone, I’d suggest that’s not really an unreasonable limit for a trail bike.
Spits coffee over keyboard - ONS says av uk male weight is 83.6kg......I'd suggest building/warrantying a frame only to ~8% above average weight is v poor.
It's a reasonable weight for a steel FS frame, so the rider weight limit might make sense in that context. I don't see how it impacts on value for those within the weight limit anyway.
The warranty text does seem a touch fussy, but perhaps that's a reflection of the framebuilder's very particular approach?
ONS says av uk male weight is 83.6kg
What does it say about the weight of the average MTBer?
Spits coffee over keyboard – ONS says av uk male weight is 83.6kg
Yes and have you seen the state of the average UK male. They are hardly a picture of someone who cycles/exercises are they.
Hmm, read this earlier and was going to ask about frame stiffness. Cotic and Stanton have both settled on Alu rear ends for their steel FS bikes, as steel just doesn't let them do what they want it to do in the stays and linkages.
I wonder if the 14stone limit is more about acceptable ride/stiffness than out-and-out strength.
What does it say about the weight of the average MTBer?
Yes and have you seen the state of the average UK male. They are hardly a picture of someone who cycles/exercises are they.
Exactly.
max user weight kitted up of 90kgs!
Now that's a good move. Perhaps make a frame specifically for the larger gent as well.
Now a 130mm version does sound very promising, I'll be keeping an eye on that one.
Hardtail party chap mentioned steel bikes and construction for different sized riders, a lighter rider may not need the frame as heavy or as strong and vice versa too. Making a frame strong enough for the larger rider may make it feel too stiff for smaller sized frames.
And what about the taller men? One word that would describe me is very much not 'overweight' - I have a slight 'man over 40' belly but I'd be described as skinny by pretty much everyone and yet at 6ft 3in I'm 84kg with pretty much nothing on, so easily over 90kg with 2-3l of water, knee pads, helmet, and stuff for a full day ride.
If you're a 'proper' height male, forget this bike, then.
maybe they should rebrand as dwarf cycles - as if you want to ride his bikes with clothes on you'd need to be near/under the Uk average height of 5'9" to have peace of mind coverage with the warranty!
maybe they should rebrand as dwarf cycles
😀
At 5ft 8in, I resemble that comment.
Adrian is quite a small chap (and a quick rider) and is also about as much as a perfectionist as you can imagine. If he’s rating it to 90kg then that’ll mean it’ll be basically impossible to break way beyond the warranty period for riders below that size and doubtless will survive far better with bigger riders than most frames without weight limits.
However, he has limited production capacity so he can choose to restrict the warranty to lighter riders and not worry about losing sales.
The Cotic and Swarf chainstays are alloy for ease of manufacture - steel would be stiffer because steel is a lot stiffer than aluminium!
At 193cm and 88kg, I'm out. I'm not entirely sure what the attraction is, looks pretty simplistic. The BTR has at least twice the weld length and more tubing for only £450 more. The shock/pivot mounts look awful.
Swarf have made a 20 year old Turner 5-spot replica 😉
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The BTR has at least twice the weld length and more tubing for only £450 more
Are those the key metrics for frame pricing? Explains why Orange frames cost so much now - they have welds everywhere.
I don't want to slag BTR off, but they have quite an unique aesthetic which isn't for everyone - and (I always think) a surprisingly large amount of tubing.
I haven't the cash to even consider one of these but I am chuffed to discover I am 0.16kg below UK average weight. This is rather worrying for the rest of the population as I consider myself ( and BMI agrees) overweight.
I’m not entirely sure what the attraction is, looks pretty simplistic.
You’ve answered your own question there.
I now also feel like a lightweight compared to some of you biffers. Sorry! Tall men. 5ft 9” and 12 stone. Pity I’m piss poor and couldn’t afford one. Still, I can stare longingly.
Weight seems fine for a steel full sus. I’d take the weight penalty over some space aged looking carbon or alu frame.
Adrian is quite a small chap (and a quick rider) and is also about as much as a perfectionist as you can imagine.
What's he a perfectionist in? hiding the warranty weight limit clause on his website instead of making the riding weight limit clear on the product purchase page?
However, he has limited production capacity so he can choose to restrict the warranty to lighter riders and not worry about losing sales.
Bit of a blinkered view - some might argue he's covering up a design flaw discovered in extremes of testing by applying a relatively low weight limit 'get out' in the warranty details.
Are those the key metrics for frame pricing? Explains why Orange frames cost so much now – they have welds everywhere.
I don’t want to slag BTR off, but they have quite an unique aesthetic which isn’t for everyone – and (I always think) a surprisingly large amount of tubing.
If labour and materials aren't the key metrics for costing, I've no idea what is. Care to enlighten me? Doesn't look like they spent much time on design.
Doesn’t look like they spent much time on design.
Not to you perhaps.
the Dwarf Dated?
Bit of a blinkered view – some might argue he’s covering up a design flaw discovered in extremes of testing by applying a relatively low w
spot the over 90s
Not sure how happy a steel seatstay is going to be continually being flexed due to lack of Horstlink or seatstay pivot - even if it has a slight 'flattening' of the tube.
Doesn’t look like they spent much time on design.
this either means they haven't spent a lot of time on the design, or they have spent a lot of time on the design...
I'm assuming that as there is no rear triangle brace (like on a production privee, not sure how to describe it) then it is a flex stay single pivot, normally done in carbon and on shorter travel bikes. How is it going to hold up here?
EDIT - RNP beat me by 3 minutes
Fat people getting angry here 😀
Have a look on his blog. The man clearly knows what he’s doing and tests his frames a lot. Steel has natural flex and the frames are designed with this in mind. Adrian explains how it works.
“Not sure how happy a steel seatstay is going to be continually being flexed due to lack of Horstlink or seatstay pivot – even if it has a slight ‘flattening’ of the tube.”
We all know steel hates being flexed which is why it hasn’t been used for coil and leaf springs for over a century…
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chiefgrooveguru
Free Member“Not sure how happy a steel seatstay is going to be continually being flexed due to lack of Horstlink or seatstay pivot – even if it has a slight ‘flattening’ of the tube.”
We all know steel hates being flexed which is why it hasn’t been used for coil and leaf springs for over a century…
That's a poor example, we aren't comparing a big thick chunky coil or leaf spring (both of which commonly fail) to a thin walled bicycle tube in an application that for 99% of four or faux bar frames would have a pivot. I know Yeti did a pivot less aluminium link on the old 575 and there are have been a few carbon flex links like Cannondales Scalpel but a flexed steel tube makes my rough arse back of fag packet engineering spider sense tingle a little.
I've dug into Swarfs blog and read there's a 6mm deflection for the seatstay (3mm each way) but not sure if that's the same for the 155mm travel bike?
Also would the resistance of the seatstay to bending (due to lack of pivot) reduce small bump compliance?
The guy has an engineering background and the Contour has been around for a good few years now. Never read up on one failing. Why does your spider sense tingle for steel but not alu or carbon? I’d trust steel the most out of those three.
Never mind the blog, check his Instagram if you actually want more info. Or here's a better idea, if you want one but have concerns speak to him rather than slagging him off in a place he can't readily defend himself. Have a ****ing word with yourselves.
Pity he doesn’t have an account on here. I for one think he makes great bikes. Well tested, designed for our climate and simple in the best possible sense of the word. Much nicer than the identikit carbon bikes with more bearings than gears.
If you want to get an idea of what goes into Swarf bikes, read these two blog articles:
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/blog/swarf-full-suspension-a-brief-history-part-1
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/blog/swarf-full-suspension-a-brief-history-part-15633199
I’m not against the idea of a steel flex stay, just curious how it works.
Carbon flex stays on other bikes seem to have a more exaggerated oval/rectangle profile for more vertical compliance vs side to side movement.
An interesting added point alluded to above, flexing the stays takes energy, as opposed to a bearing design where the action of the suspension is nominally resistance free.
This non-adjustable spring is then going to need to be compensated for via the shock, but interested to see how.
Pity he doesn’t have an account on here.
Pretty sure he does.
I hope he sees this then and posts something. I’m coming across as a borderline stalker now but I think his frames are a cut above the majority of what’s out there. If I had the money the 130 or Contour would be top of my list.
If I was to step out my door the first bije related business of any kind I would come to in swarf.
Want me to take some photos through the windows you wee stalker?
flexing the stays takes energy
What do you think suspension does?
I suppose it’s very much each to their own, but they do nothing for me. That warranty is fussy (and short) - I accept it’s the builders prerogative and all that but as mentioned it does discount the majority of UK adult males once kitted up ready to go.
I know folk have said that it’s likely that the frames will stand way more weight than that, but if this is the case why wouldn’t the builder show faith in his product and warranty it?
I’m a fan of steel frames and currently have a Flaremax on order. I have nothing against Swarf and actually admire anyone who starts up a business building frames in this day and age, but this just isn’t for me.
flexing the stays takes energy
What do you think suspension does?
This comment was picking up on what I posted in that by the suspension action having to flex the seatstay this would reduce the amount of small bump compliance available. I don't know if this would be noticeable when ridden?
I expect that if you took a shock off the 155frame and cycled it through its travel that it would have some resistance through its suspension movement due to having to bend the seatstays, as opposed to a 4bar or linkage actuated single pivot with a full complement of bearings that would feel smooth with no resistance when the shock is removed and the suspension cycled.
There are clearly some forces at play in the 155 pivotless back end as a small brace has been added between the chain and seatstays. I just don't know why you wouldn't add a bearing/pivot? The upper seatstay pivot bearing would also thank you for it not having to deal with those tube flexing forces being applied to it.
The flex that the Swarf seatstay sees is super small because of the way he’s run his linkages. With the amount of tweak frames have to get them to set to alignment it’s funny some on here are losing their shit over something they simply isn’t an issue.
And as for those losing more over the weight limit. Oh my days.
It’s so cool that there are so many options out there now, for people wanting safe, chummy, Chinese made frames whose huge margins mean they can offer ludicrous warranties and mega bucks promos and sponsored riders. Alongside super small brands making weird stuff in the U.K.
Still puzzled why people can’t see it’s like football, and some people will always back the big teams and some people love supporting the smaller local sides.
The upper seatstay pivot bearing would also thank you for it not having to deal with those tube flexing forces being applied to it.
It’s a bearing. It doesn’t know. Does it?
Want me to take some photos through the windows you wee stalker?
Yes 😀
and also what Brant said too. Someone will be along in a sec to accuse you of making overly expensive clothes that don’t fit them properly and that’s not fair.
It’s a bearing. It doesn’t know. Does it?
You know what i mean
Regarding the effect of the flex stay on the suspension, this suggests that Adrian has probably considered it:
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/test.html
Nothing to drool over, does it look like a £3k frame NO, looks like meccano to me, the hardware looks like whatever was rolling around in the workshop spares drawer, good job there's no horst link you'd probably snag yourself on it, the main pivot bearing clamping arrangement isn't exactly sleek and modern, are there any bearing shields on the pivots, can't really tell from the pics, then there's an IS brake mount and 44mm headtube like its from the middle of the previous decade.
Why would you not use an IS mount and a 44mm headtube on a steel frame?
Ah here we go:-
the stay flexes a total of 6mm (3mm up and 3mm down), the steel stays have no issue whatsoever with this small amount of flex.
from:-
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/blog/swarf-full-suspension-a-brief-history-part-15633199
Adrian at Swarf is a proper data nerd... my own first instinct is that a bearing would make more sense despite the small movement, just because of the force needed to "spring" the seatstay and the return force. But that'd be the first thing he thought about too, after establishing there was no fatigue issue, and he'll have mathsed and tested the crap out of it. And it is at the end of the day all controlled by a spring anyway and the less controlled forces out there will be pretty small in the grand scheme. Since it made it to production then it's not stopping the bike from working exactly how he wants it.
Or, put it another way, I'm not going to see some glaring issue he's not thought of and neither most likely is anyone else on here.
Super expensive, pretty heavy, pretty ugly, and with dodgy warranties. Probably why I'm not droooling yet.
£500 more than a Rocket Max for frame only but handmade by one guy. It’s steel, there’s always a slight weight penalty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. I think it’s the best looking full sus out there. Mainly because they’re all pretty ugly and this one looks like a hardtail. So a much more pleasing aesthetic to my eyes.
What’s dodgy about the warranty? The fact that he’s stipulated a weight limit?
We all like different things but some of you are just being dicks.
“ We all like different things but some of you are just being dicks.”
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
I absolutely love the 155 and have been talking to Adrian about ordering one for a while. He asked me to wait for the new website, so I’ve just emailed to get myself on the waiting list. Super excited!
Wow, what a thread, I would've thought a single owner-operator making "pretty cool things" would be very much up the STW demographic, no..?
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that, but as suss frames go, I think it looks pretty cool, bet it looks nicer in the flesh though as websites never do the real thing justice in my experience. Looks a hoot to ride
Hope it sells well.
That’s a poor example, we aren’t comparing a big thick chunky coil or leaf spring (both of which commonly fail)
Commonly fail because there’s an incredible amount of them, not because failure rate is high.
the hardware looks like whatever was rolling around in the workshop spares drawer,
Non-proprietary parts on a MTB?! Never catch on
I previously slagged off the looks which is just peoples tastes, but the flack for the flex-stay is unfounded, such a small amount of flex will be well within the elastic limit. You will likely feel some resistance with the shock removed but the flex-stay will be acting as a spring and this will accounted for when you set the sag. For people looking for a full suspension with modern geometry that looks like an old steel frame I imagine this ticks all the boxes.
Thanks to whoever shared the blog section of the website, a really interesting read and some really interesting frames/bikes on there, I really like the look of the old carbon fibre back end:
It's really interesting to read through the process of the design iterations. It's also nice to see someone with a good engineering background going through this process instead of the cowboys behind some other boutique bike brands.
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
And on here it often appears to be unhappy middle-aged men who don't seem to ride any more, but want to assert their superior knowledge about something they've just taken a cursory glance at.
Do they not realise how pathetic they are? Or do they know, but carry on anyway?
Am I just noticing it more on here or has it got worse this last year, as the dullards drive other users away?
It's drool from me!
For people looking for a full suspension with modern geometry that looks like an old steel frame I imagine this ticks all the boxes.
Exactly this. It’s clear that a lot of time and effort has gone in to testing too if you take the time to read Adrian’s posts. I’m not a big fan of swooping lines, complex shapes or over complex shock designs. Hence why I love the look of Swarf’s frames. To my eye they look like a bike should and seem to be designed for folk who want to get out and ride in all weathers with minimum fuss and upkeep.
For the time being I’ll stick with my Stooge Dirtbomb and build a Swarf in my head.
I like it, can't afford it, probably close to the weight limit but it still appeals despite me being a grumpy middle-aged man... I must be broken or something.
then there’s an IS brake mount and 44mm headtube like its from the middle of the previous decade.
So the most adaptable headtube and brake mounting standard are a bad thing because they weren't invented ten minutes ago?
Flex stays aren't a new or particularly groundbreaking concept either, using steel's elastic properties to eliminate the need for another set of bearings is a perfectly acceptable idea.
Spurious bullshit reasons to dislike things that nobody is forcing you to buy? Peak internetting.
But don't worry, SBC, Trek, giant, Santa Cruz or any of the other purveyors of overpriced cookiecutter dandyhorses will happily take similar sums from you for their products with lots of welds, bearings and soon to be superseded "standards"...
I think it looks great tbh - I’d probably prefer it to have a Horst link - but there are loads of bikes out there now with flex stays and steel can be built to have flex so it’s a non issue here.
The cost is a lot - but if it’s British hand made from quality steel tubing and there are the known Covid issues around shipping and supply then it all adds up.
I couldn’t personally justify the cost and don’t have any desire for a steel full suss bike - they’re generally heavier than alloy or carbon and I don’t see the benefit in the steel other than the look in this case.
For reference, I bought a custom steel hardtail though as I can see the (theoretical) benefit of steel in a hardtail. I suspect mine is overbuilt and probably doesn’t actually have that much flex (Marino) as I went for the cheaper option - but it’s a step up in reduction of buzz over my last alloy hardtail. Bigger tyres could be making more difference though.
I wonder what’s driving the 90kg weight limit on the warranty side of things - I’m 5’9 and until I lost a bit of weight recently I was 82kgs without being enormously fat. Add a few litres of water plus tools and that’s getting on for the limit as it is. This realistically restricts he bike to shorter riders or tall thin ones.
At the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice - we’re all different and it would be boring if we weren’t 🤷♂️
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
Playing the devil’s advocate here but an internet presence is probably essential these days in order to attract customers, and with an internet presence come keyboard warriors… otherwise known as potential customers???
Contrary to what Brant says, I can’t see anyone here losing their shit over the lack of a seat stay pivot; people are commenting/critiquing based on their knowledge (no doubt influenced by other manufacturers internet presence) and preferences. It’s an internet discussion forum - people are allowed to do this.
I admire what Swarf are doing, I like the hardtail aesthetic he’s going for but there are other bits I don’t like… that’s my personal opinion/taste/aesthetic at work. Seeing as this is the internet and the internet has given me a voice, then I’m choosing to use my voice. Doesn’t make me a hater, just voicing an opinion.
In the past some of the so called forum “big hitters” have been admonished for bullying posts. If someone’s opinion differed to theirs they set about them like internet pack animals. This thread is creeping a little close to this. People are allowed to voice their opinions without being described as a hater or similar.
keyboard warriors… otherwise known as potential customers???
Experience says it can be better not to have them as customers, and instead deal with more genuine people who appreciate what you are making, and are asking questions to find things out rather than off hand rubbish your work.
Think it's a lovely looking thing, but that 90kg limit rules me out - suspect it will rule out a lot of folks at the larger end of the sizing. I'm guessing the limit is related tot hat flex pivot and the amount of force and flex it's designed for.
The 155 does look nice. I wonder how that weight limit would be enforced. Do you have to send in a picture of you on the scales when submitting a claim?
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit. And secretly impressed they have managed to use a keyboard given their pudgy fingers must hit 3 keys at once
I think they look cool, may get one in the future
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit. And secretly impressed they have managed to use a keyboard given their pudgy fingers must hit 3 keys at once
I use a dialing wand.
grahamt1980
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit.
The "average man" who weighs 84kg is only 5'9"
Even allowing for cyclists being a bit fitter/lighter than average (which isn't always the case), most folks closer to 6' and above will be close to the limit or beyond it.
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
If a company can't take some mild criticism off some randoms on the internet who have given no evidence of their credentials to give said criticism then you are right, they should stay off the internet. At the same time there's loads of (Sick!) companies out there, who appear to have no engineering credentials producing bikes. This thread and the criticism has only boosted Swarfs profile and apparent quality, in the face of a pretty restrictive warranty and what at first sight appeared to be just another steel full sus but for more money than a cotic rocket. I'd say this thread has benefited them on the whole.
as an owner of a Starling, the looks definitely appeal to me. I see them out quite often where I ride and they are really lovely things in the flesh.