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I think it's a mistake to think any one single 'way' is universally correct. A lot of what CP says makes sense but it is counter to more conventional thinking.
Fabien Barel's recent revelations about his stem/bar set up, which goes against the "slam them as low as they can go" herd mentality are also interesting in a similar way.
What works for some will not necessarily work for others. The stopwatch can't lie, but it also can't measure the feedback, fun and confidence a rider feels. It's all very subjective, but overall it's a good thing that there are people nudging the edges of the set-up envelope.
He's obviously very passionate about his ideas, and as someone further up said, if people don't try & find the limits, then nothing ever advances.
I do agree with some of what he says, although maybe not in the way he says it.
The big thing i'm not convinced on is his whole mantra of super long front ends & 10mm stems. I spent a lot of time last year riding a load of the Forward Geometry Mondrakers, and (which is the key bit - why we're all different) for me, they ride like sh*t.
They force you to ride in such a way over the front of the bike otherwise you have a lot less front end grip. I've never suffered so many front end washouts and feeling of looseness when riding anything else. I can ride noticeably better & faster on a more normal setup with a 55mm stem, which puts me in the same place on a current Mondraker Dune with their 10mm stem. That's not to say that what I like is in any way better for the next person either.
Let him crack on I say, its good we live in a world where he can put some of his ideas into reality. Even if they turn out to be hideous abominations like that Nicolai 🙂
zero reach stems though? - a sure sign he's gone too far.
I don't understand this comment, once you get used to the twitchyness they are great on the correct bike.
I don't get zero reach stems either. Putting the hands in line with the steerer, I can see, but behind!?
b r - MemberI guess back to the braking issue, and with a 29er you can get the BB too low vs the axles.
The braking issue that I've never heard anyone else mention or notice, and that isn't really backed up by logic or physics? 29er BB drop moves a small amount of grams a small distance, the overwhelming factor will always be the huge amount of grams still much further above the axles that you move around all the time. It's like obsessing about pedal drag because mathematically you know it slows you down. Or, you know, declaring that you HAVE to spend £2500 on wheels to sort out a 29er.
I'd be totally happy if he just said "I don't personally like 29ers because X", opinions are good and his are to pay attention to. But he doesn't want to do that, so he uses pseudoscience and dubious "facts" like "29ers have no pump" to try and turn his opinion into fact. TBH it seems like a pretty common thing in mountain biking, people aren't happy to say they prefer this to that- it has to be what they like is [i]best[/i], what you like sucks and you're wrong.
There's a bunch of stuff I agree with him but the other stuff undermines him and the article. Especially when he changes his mind on something and suddenly his new gospel is as right as the old one was right up til he decided it was wrong. (see- 26 vs 650b).
A rant about novelty-led product development and pandering to the lowest common denominator.
From the guy who imports Fox CTD technology into the UK.
I don't get zero reach stems either. Putting the hands in line with the steerer, I can see, but behind!?
Yeah, maybe it works but I just have images of pushing a shopping cart.
People seem to forget about bar sweep when it comes to stem length. My grips are in line with my steerer.
JCL, long chainstays push you over the front more and in turns keep the rear end more stable and less likely to break away. At the same time they are more comfortable through rock gardens.
Long chainstays are the way to go in downhill.
I don't get zero reach stems either.
MX stem.
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Brake-neck - MemberI don't understand this comment, once you get used to the twitchyness they are great on the correct bike.
mostly, i was just talking shite.
if they work, go for it, i just think they look a bit weird.
Others spouting off saying he doesn't know what he'stalking about are clearly what I would call trail centre riders/ beginners.
aw bless, nice of you to still talk to those folks you seem to look down on 😉
mikewsmith - Member
Others spouting off saying he doesn't know what he'stalking about are clearly what I would call trail centre riders/ beginners.aw bless, nice of you to still talk to those folks you seem to look down on
POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO # REPORT-POST
My comment does sound a bit arrogant and bless you I'm sorry if I offended you but you clearly do not understand his theory maybe due to lack of experience, but what cp is saying makes so much sense and I applaud him for having the balls and expressing his own opinion rather than being a typical sheep in the mtb industry...although I've never been a lover of Fox forks! 😆
I'm happy on the steep stuff, I'm happy going fast I enjoy my bikes but really can't be arsed with a lot of the stuff spouted about the "Perfect" bike which in reality is a bike for only one part of the experience. As you spotted it's also really easy to come across as condescending 🙂 I hope you don't get held up by anyone inferior today.
It all reminds me of a trip to Rotorua in June where the guide we had for the day took us of pisteing on some seriously steep and loose trails one one of these
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For most people the bike is not the issue
It all reminds me of a trip to Rotorua in June where the guide we had for the day took us of pisteing on some seriously steep and loose trails one one of theseFor most people the bike is not the issue
That's awesome! 😆 😉
pedal strike only happens to novices, so in that respect then yeah slack low and long is not for everyone
Come and ride our natural trails as fast as you can and you'll learn all about the challenges of pedal strike! When the gradient is steep enough and corners large enough that you don't need to get some pedal strokes in as soon as possible after the exit then super low BBs are great. But it isn't always like that in the real world outside trail centres.
Jared Graves pedal-struck a root at tweedlove and fired himself over the handlebars. But hey, he's only a world champion so probably still learning the basics.
Shorter cranks?
I've been advocating for 150mm cranks for years. Funny that Porter doesn't mention that.
Northwind - Member
Jared Graves pedal-struck a root at tweedlove and fired himself over the handlebars. But hey, he's only a world champion so probably still learning the basics.POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
Oh jeeez...of course its gonna happen every now and then even to the pro's
But in general it's a skill you learn to master even on the rockiest of tracks chief guru! 😉 where do you ride by the way? Sounds amazing! Surely you'd have picked up the skill of pedal positioning by now!
My Jones has a super low BB - initially I had the odd pedal strike, but you adapt and I hardly ever have them now. I ride the same areas as Chief. Actually the low BB, slack, big offset, and long wheelbase of the Jones Plus has elements of what Chris is proposing....... Just a thought, And H bars will put your hands pretty much inline with the headtube.
It isn't rocks that are the problem, it's roots and stumps. Such is life when your local trails are through very twisty deciduous woodland. On the steeper trails it's fine but on the flatter ones, or coming out of really slow corners on the steep ones, it's all too easy to catch a pedal when you put down the power out of the exit whilst the bike is still leant over. Doesn't help that I'm often riding them in the dark too!
FRC, I can't easily find the BB height of your Jones but I'm guessing it's around 300mm. And it doesn't vary because you have no suspension. The BB height of my Spitfire is 346mm in the middle setting, so about 306mm sagged. Fully bottomed out it'll be down at 200mm. Pumping out of a corner and then pushing the pedals it's going to be well below the lowest rigid bike's BB height.
chris85, you're a bit stalkery, you know that?
So pedal strikes only happen to novices, except when they're happening to pros. And that's got something to do with where I ride?
Northwind, please do not take it to heart. This is my opinion that I agree with cp..he clearly knows more about mountain biking than you...again that is my opinion.
To say that pros should never have pedal strikes is like saying they should never have a puncture or an otb...it happens, Just obviously the more riding experience you get you learn to manouver the crank arms about to avoid obstacles roots and rocks. I think you know exactly what I'm saying but your being slightly awkward mate 😉
Others spouting off saying he doesn't know what he'stalking about are clearly what I would call trail centre riders/ beginners.. pedal strike only happens to novices
ahh, purest stw gold
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Very good that Jim 😉
Interesting article. Some of it makes sense, some not so much, and some just smacks of I want to be different to cause friction.
Comparing Moto gp handling to an mtb is frankly ridiculous
The only thing I took out of that is lose the clutch mech:
And I only just bought one.
FRC, I can't easily find the BB height of your Jones but I'm guessing it's around 300mm. And it doesn't vary because you have no suspension. The BB height of my Spitfire is 346mm in the middle setting, so about 306mm sagged. Fully bottomed out it'll be down at 200mm. Pumping out of a corner and then pushing the pedals it's going to be well below the lowest rigid bike's BB height.
Actually, maybe someone could measure to be sure, but I believe the Jones BB height is somewhere in the region of 280. That's REALLY low. You should be comparing sagged on an fs to the static rigid height, you're not riding around with no air in the shock and the bike bottomed out all the time are you?
The only thing I took out of that is lose the clutch mech:And I only just bought one.
If you want to see what actual difference it makes, disconnect your shock and move the bike through its travel. Completely insignificant compared to the friction in a shock mount bush and of no concern wth your body weight flouncing around on top of it
I confirm that my Jones BB height is 280mm, mine doesn't have an EBB, but most do, so I presume it could be even lower if you desired.
Interesting article but all the guy has done is tried to build a bike that suits his own personal skills and riding style. Thing is Chris Porter is a not actually all that good an all round bike rider. He did Ok for an old man racing gravity events on the latest equipment but any properly good competitor could have beaten him on a short travel steep angled hardtail. Put Chris on the same hardtail and his results would have been laughable.
JCL. I'm not sure what you mean by advocating 150mm cranks, but why don't you just fit a set? unless you're around 5ft or smaller or only ride uplifted you probably won't find them very nice. Profile do everything you'd need.
Very good that Jim 😉
Are you having a stroke? You keep putting winking things after everything.
The article was quite interesting. I don't really like the writing style and the irony of the importer of Fox railing against herd mentality was a good one though.
JCL. I'm not sure what you mean by advocating 150mm cranks, but why don't you just fit a set? unless you're around 5ft or smaller or only ride uplifted you probably won't find them very nice. Profile do everything you'd need.
Yeah but they weigh a ton and they aren't PF30. Sram/Shimano should drop 175mm and do 150/160/170mm.
tomd - Member
Very good that Jim
Are you having a stroke? You keep putting winking things after everything.The article was quite interesting. I don't really like the writing style and the irony of the importer of Fox railing against herd mentality was a good one though.
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What a nasty comment! My girlfriend has suffered a stroke and its really not nice to ridicule..I hope you don't ever find yourself having to look after someone after a stroke... Tool
I'm sure it was a joke.
I've heard worse on daytime telly to be honest
[i]Interesting article but all the guy has done is tried to build a bike that suits his own personal skills and riding style. Thing is Chris Porter is a not actually all that good an all round bike rider. He did Ok for an old man racing gravity events on the latest equipment but any properly good competitor could have beaten him on a short travel steep angled hardtail. Put Chris on the same hardtail and his results would have been laughable. [/i]
Isn't that what he (and racer) should be doing, making the best bike that suits their skill and style?
It already is what he's doing. It's nothing new and it's nothing any of us couldn't attempt so long as you can justify the cost.
JCL. Yeah, as far as I know PF30 and profiles are not (yet?) compatible. I wouldn't rule them out on weight alone though. Profile racing cranks with their Ti axle and an aftermarket spider are very close in weight and arguably comparable to Saint in strength /stiffness and durability. I know those are the qualities I'd be looking for from a crank for a properly low BB long travel bike.
If you want a 150mm crank, would the easy way not just be to find a solid-armed crank and shorten it ?
I don't think I'd like it though- I can't really tell any difference between my 175s and 170s when riding but my 165s felt a bit odd, not when pedalling but when flat pedalled- gives you a shorter stance. Whether better or worse I don't know, but weird anyway.
When I ride a bike with 175's it feels like I'm surfing.
I wonder to what extent longer cranks just feel right for me, because I'm used to them...
It's actually not that you don't notice the difference between your bikes with 170s and others with 175s. It's simply down to muscle memory that they both feel "right" when you jump on each bike despite the change in crank length. Whether you are aware of the difference is another matter entirely.
It's amazing how 10mm difference in the length allows you to move around more. It's like going from a 100 to a 125mm dropper.
TBH, hitting stuff with your pedals is always going to be a risk, with any (serviceable) length of crank. If you get the impact just right (wrong?), with the crank about 15 degrees forward of bottom-dead-centre the results can be spectacular - like those airbag pranks all over the net ATM - and you feel like your being forcibly ejected from the bike.