Are you skidding to a stop on your mountain bike?
Trimix
Free MemberI’ve experimented off road with my KTM motorcycle (which has off-road tyre fitted), tried it on gravel/dirt/crap with the ABS on and with it turned off.
Switched On, the bike failed to stop. Switched Off, it stopped, just like a mountain bike currently does off road.
This dude put some numbers to Triumph/BMW's systems here:
K, no. But when I raced motorcycle enduros I would feel the grip and basically moderate the lever/pedal action so it went from lock to open / skid to not skid. Like min ABS.
After years of riding / competing you could do this pretty well. Sure, it would go wrong sometimes, as it does on a mountain bike.
That was fine on the various off road motorbikes I had/currently have. They are lighter competition machines (Honda XR400, CRM250, KX250, KTM525, Montessa 250, Bultaco 250) so you can do that sort of the same as you can on your mountain bike.
But is a different story on my KTM 990 Adventure bike, which weighs over 200kg.
I can see the fun in not having to think about braking, just pull the lever as hard as you like and the bike will stop quickly
However I do wonder if bikes will get to the point they become a bit boring as they sanitise the experience
Very much ^^this^^ for me. The "Risk vs Skill" trade off of fully controlling both of your own brakes is part of fun on an MTB (IMO) and as the eeeeb fanbois always seem to tell us fun is the most important thing on a mountain bike, all other considerations are secondary.
As ever, some see any new tech on a bicycle as wonderful and without any potential downsides. Any resistance/rejection is just people being luddites, the reality is a bit more nuanced than that I think.
Followed to the logical conclusion once all the tech has been added to bicycles it makes them entirely redundant, once it accelerates/brakes and steers itself perfectly reducing the effort for the meat sack onboard to zero, you might as well be sat in your Tesla watching netflix and ignoring your surroundings...
That video was interesting. Basically as a good / advanced rider he was able to stop with NO ABS better than with ABS on the worst off road surface. By a margin of 17%.
Trimix
Free MemberThat video was interesting. Basically as a good / advanced rider he was able to stop with NO ABS better than with ABS on the worst off road surface. By a margin of 17%.
Best decel was with ABS in every case wasn't it?
Not intending to say your point about the KTM was invalid BTW, it could just be the surface they tested with, or that these two bikes have a better ABS system than the KTM etc
As ever, some see any new tech on a bicycle as wonderful and without any potential downsides. Any resistance/rejection is just people being luddites
I think people basically fall into 2 camps.
1. New technology is exactly what I want and therefore is to be welcomed and will herald a new age of wonder and improvement.
2. New technology is of no interest to me and will therefore spoil the sport beyond recognition if taken up by the mass market and I will be forced to take up embroidery against my will.
Sure, it would go wrong sometimes, as it does on a mountain bike
That's the whole point of abs isn't it, it helps when things do going wrong.
People don't drive around in their cars triggering the abs every time they apply the brakes.
I fall in to camp 1.5
I don't want it on my bikes now but would be quite happy for it to be on the wife's bike. If it means my friends can be safer it's a good thing, if I can keep up with them and they have assistance, even better.
I use ABF. Anti-lock Braking Finger.
I pump the brakes through their cycle which seems to slow me better, though these are shimano, so it probably the grabby effect thats helping there.
Are you skidding to a stop on your mountain bike?
2. New technology is of no interest to me and will therefore spoil the sport beyond recognition if taken up by the mass market and I will be forced to take up embroidery against my will.
History tells us that will take a LONG time. I am still using rim brakes and have absolutely no issues getting rim braked wheels or mini V brakes, or pads, or cables, or levers.
Multi21 - I read it as the g force achieved in the stop, so the higher number means higher g force and the highest numbers in the worst conditions were with no ABS. But I could be wrong.
These bikes had a more modern version of ABS than my KTM. So they were better, but sometimes having software not allow the wheel to stop on a loose surface will not help.
I did a bit of googling on driver aids in motorsport. Was very interesting to find there is very limited information, however a consensus that driver aids (including ABS) make racing cars faster but then the sport becomes more about engineering than driver skill.
In that way biking is no different you can decide what you want from cycling ie for the bike to do it all for you. Maybe at some point someone marketing solution will be stabilisers so you dont even need to learn to ride a bike?
It is interesting though that many road sports cars have gone down the route of driver aids ie ABS/Auto Boxes/4 wheel drive etc, but people now are starting to realise that makes them dull although ultimately very fast. In the sports car world things are slowly going back the other way for true enthusiasts
a consensus that driver aids (including ABS) make racing cars faster but then the sport becomes more about engineering than driver skill.
The reason teams use them is because they make the cars faster. If F1 cars had unrestricted driver aids, the drivers would just need to stomp on the brakes at the braking point and turn the car, then stomp on the throttle at the apex and software would take care of everything, including stability control to save them if they overcooked. Their race speeds are limited by tyre durability - the tyres can't even cope with a single lap of Silverstone at full pace - so the software would be optimized to keep the tyres alive long enough for the optimal pit strategy rather than for maximum lap time. The cars would be faster but it would be very boring to watch because the gap between the great drivers and average drivers would be reduced or eliminated. The best engineered car would take pole position and then it would be very difficult for the cars behind to get past because the scope for driver error is much smaller.
I was going to say something similar to what Funkydunc has said.
To compare to cars, for most people most of the time, going to work in their Kias and Vauxhalls, ABS is great. Same probably applies to most people who just ride a bike to get about.
I suspect the members of this forum are not typical bike riders, to continue the car analogy we are charging around in our Caterhams and Ariels just for fun and we would shy away from such things.
.
Also, speaking as someone who does most of his riding on a singlespeed gravel bike, I like simplicity. I might want the tech on my race bike if it was definitely faster, I have a suspension fork, and sometimes a dropper or gears, but for a simple day to day bike I want to keep it as simple and low maintenance as possible, that's part of the fun of riding
People don’t drive around in their cars triggering the abs every time they apply the brakes.
But racing drivers, rally drivers, etc would if they were allowed. Maintaining the highest speed over a course means keeping your speed in the easier bits as high as possible for as long as possible.
Add in the 3D nature of off roading and I guess there will be elements of brake dragging to mintain your current speed, but essentially keeping speed and late braking is the way to go for speed.
How many bike riders can judge their line, grip, braking and speed that well for every feature that braking at only at maximum efficiency wont get them too slow too early or too late? Ability and technique to gain control and speed play a huge part on over all speed, so no matter the technology, the bike will never be able to do it all for you because as long as the human is the main control of the inputs (brakes, weight and power) it doesn't matter what the computer output can do. Look at the time differences between the top 10 and the last 10 of any mtb race, fairly certain slightly better braking efficiency isn't going to get the last 10 faster than the first.
I can see a benefit to ABS the majority of MTB is going to be regulating speed on low grip, down hill off camber sections to help prevent the bike from sliding while trying to brake to be able to get round a corner.
Moto GP bikes have traction control, doesn't mean everyone can go slide a bike around a track like Marquez used to pre smashing himself up...
Look at the time differences between the top 10 and the last 10 of any mtb race, fairly certain slightly better braking efficiency isn’t going to get the last 10 faster than the first.
Nope but it may change the positions of the people in the top 10
Nope but it may change the positions of the people in the top 10
Is this a problem?
I feel with MTB racing we have all been picturing gravity disciplines so far? I know I have. As implied above though, all the top guys are all pretty damn good with their god given fingers.
However, think about modern XC. Challenging descents, done while exhausted, on non-ideal tyres.
There are riders - Cink and MVDP spring to my mind - who are definite podium contenders - and yet compared side by side with Schurter, Pidcock, Fluckinger are noticably inferior descenders. (still better than everyone here, I hasten to add)
Could they be interested in theory? What would the weight penalty be? Would ABS and dry weather tyres be better than wet tyres in the mud?
Is this a problem?
Nope. If ABS gave an advantage then all of the top 10 would have it anyway and once they all had it the nay sayers on here would no doubt think kit was now great.
What tyres for ABS?
To those saying abs doesn't work in ice and snow.
My bmw motorcycle had a fairly early electrmechanical system that was by modern standards primitive. On an ungritted snow covered road i had to brake hard as possible. The abs cut in and i was able to retain enough control to avoid the car infront of me and come to a halt safely without falling over using both front and rear brakes. That was what convinced me that abs is worth it. I could hardly stand on the road it was so slippery but under braking was able to steer and not crash
I’ve had a near crash where it would have helped.
Last run for the day, I hit a couple of steep-ish downhills then a fast sweeping right turn with trees on the outside.
I realised I had way too much speed, and I grabbed a bit too much front brake. Surface was loose stones and roots, and as soon the front wheel was locked, the bike straight-lined which put me on a path right towards headbutting a tree at approx 25 mph.
Took all of my will power to force my hand to let go of that brake and get the wheel turning again so I could get the bike turned. Every instinct was telling my to squeeze the brake more!
Very very scary, and I still have nightmares about it to this day!
The thing is, you learnt what to do, and now you are more experienced and it probably comes more naturally/second nature.
I had to do exactly the same driving Mk1 escorts in rallies. It's called finding and extending your limit 🙂
I think people basically fall into 2 camps.
1. New technology is exactly what I want and therefore is to be welcomed and will herald a new age of wonder and improvement.
2. New technology is of no interest to me and will therefore spoil the sport beyond recognition if taken up by the mass market and I will be forced to take up embroidery against my will.
I think there's a third group of people that look at whatever is being offered and make an evaluation based on whether or not it will suit their needs/desires/budget and then choose to adopt or not.
Hence some people will have a dropper, 1x but maybe only bother with 1x11/10 maybe pass on electronic gears as bowden cables still work and might not feel the need for an eeeb, but clearly see the benefits of disc brakes. At the same time they may or may not want ABS (if /when it hits the market) either due to cost or because it deskills the rider (possibly).
That was kind of my previous point, it's a bit reductive to assume everyone is a total, unthinking tech enthusiast or utter technophobe...