[Closed] Have ladder drops disappeared everywhere?

would imagine there have been too many injuries so H.S.E. will have taken action.

Same with any "work place" which an FE/FC forest is.

Unfortunate fact of life.

If only the same law could be applied to the potholes in our roads!!!!!!!!!!

H&S invariably seems to get the blame but you might also want to bear in mind that wooden features have to be renewed every few years as they rot.

IIRC, the ones at Cwmcarn were pretty new. Was looking forward to learning drops there, surely injury is an accepted part of the sport ???

It is not an unfortunate fact of life, it is an ufortunate fact of the ridiculous society we live in.

Why don't they ban cars too? They cause more accidents than ladder drops.

Something needs to be done about this nanny culture soon, I don't know what, but it can't continue. Maybe the FC needs to change the way their insurance, if they have any, is worded to put the responsibility on the rider. Or, sign up to ride schemes seem to work at places like Esher Shore (I know private land), Chicksands etc so perhaps that is the answer. I'd be happy to sign a waiver before I rode.

They had been up about three years IIRC so may have been getting a bit long in the tooth. The other problem was they were at a very exposed site. I know one experienced rider who messed himself up big style after being blown off to the side of the landing by a big gust of wind.

Is this a ladder drop? Not on FC land, tho:

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Mikey74, waivers and signs have no legal effect. If someone decides to sue you and it can be shown that you didn't take all reasonable precautions to ensure their safety, you are screwed.

As a government agency, the FC actually self-insure, and any payout they make has to come out of their limited budget. If they had a string of successful claims against them, they would be in a very difficult position. I think it's pretty encouraging that they recognise people want to do these activities on their land. There is still a proper full-length DH course there for anyone who fancies pushing their limits.

The landing looks a bit flat on that one 😯

Could add that to the Olympics - wooden thingy riding.

Househusband, that's either a ladder drop or a very confused pier.

that's not a ladder drop, there's no ladder there. a ladder drop has a ladder that can be rolled - albeit a very steep ladder.

What precautions are there on the DH course? Surely people are more likely to injure themselves there?

I just can't see what the FC could reasonably do other than signs TBH. Things like skateparks have inherently dangerous things built, and are on Council land so must be insured. Something isn't quite right here.

Skateparks are different because they're very common and a known risk that insurers etc. have done their maths on. I'm sure i saw some stats on them that said they'd actually discovered skateparks to be way less bad for injuries than football pitches.

Joe

Richpenny, from my conversations with our FC staff it's not about eliminating the risk, it's about making it obvious to deter less skilful riders and making sure that the build quality and maintenance of the trail is up to scratch.

the ladder drops at Sherwood Pines were both unofficial I believe, and explains why fc removed them.

The small ladder on the Kitchener trail is sadly missed by me and my riding buddies, it seems official trail obstacles now need to have a warning sign with them to indicate higher risk/ bail out options. Seeing how many families (kids with stabilisers- mums with sandals etc) I see on the Kitchener at weekends its removal shouldn't have been a surprise.

Still at least 5 ladder drops at Tress - 1 on the pie run, 4 on the black optional section of the last descent (on waymarked trails anyway 😉 ). The Ewok stuff was removed as it was rotten, though I thought there was still some of the woodwork left. Not been through there in ages though.

FFS - this is nowt to do with "health and safety" There are still ladder drops on the freeride at GT and IIRC thr timber features at ewoc village are being rebuilt as they were rotting away.

H&S assessments for stuff like this is merely about minimisiug risk not eliminating it - so the stuff needs to be well built and sturdy and to have decent landings. Then its fine with a warning sign to say - "dangerous ladder drop - experienced riders only" like you see all over the FC trail centres

Yeah, I forgot about the freeride stuff at Tress. Still loads there! 🙂

I think at times it IS to do with it, i.e. paranoid knee-jerk H&S rather than application of the real H&S requirements, but I know of a couple that still exist, albeit small ones. Never really liked them before but with the advent of my new cleats I feel confident on them again!

Well, maybe they have been there for ages and just removed for replacement, does anyone actually know? The first time I went there I saw the freeride bit, which they were at the top of, being built. Thus I assumed they were quite new.

we constantly maintain herts shore and the stuff we 1st built 6 yrs ago has all been redone and so on....

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Is that one?

I thought the problem with the Cwmcarn ones was that they were not very accessible for emergency services and very exposed to the wind. Surely in that case it's actually quite sensible to move them somewhere else?

you mean these ones, i dont technically think they are ladder drops
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i think they got rid of teh ones at chicksands a while back???

RealMan, that's not really steep enough. Imagine a ladder. Very steep. You can roll it if you have the balls, but if not, you launch off the top

liek this

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have you considered that wood rots and loses structural properties? some are more prone than others to it
no idea what these different sections were built from, but they will have a life expectancy and their replacement may not have been budgeted for

Yeah, a lot of people cried "health and safety gone mad" when they closed Ewok Village but the fact is they didn't so much tear it down, as give it a kick and watch it collapse, it lasted longer than planned but it was knackered and had to go. There are plans (and I think budgets, if I caught Andy right) for a replacement, though since I'm a complete pussy I wasn't paying that much attention when it was discussed.

I think that there's a problem with the proliferation of warning signs. If you warn people about each and every obstacle, no matter how minor, they very soon lose their impact. The orange 'downhill' routes at Sherwood Pines being a prime example.

Still lovin, the glentress drops... no full face or rear suss required - let it fly!

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a ladder drop is a ladder you ride off with a vertical drop. a ladder with a roll down is a ladder drop with a bail out!

fact

The ambulance access is pretty good at Cwm Carn, thanks to the Forest Drive. I can attest to this as my girlfriend had a nasty OTB there and spent the evening in Newport A & E having gravel scrubbed out of her arms.

There seems to be a lot of speculation here and very little information. With the Chicky closure a while back, everyone was up in arms about it but there turned out to be two sides to the story. From my experience of dealing with them I think land managers need to be a lot better about getting the message out to mountain bikers if a trail has to be closed or decommissioned. On the other hand, riders should be giving the powers that be a bit more credit than they currently do.

And nbt, I think Jedi is right here. If you look at the NSMBA website, they refer to any wooden bridge, even a steep roll that you could also punt off the top of, as a "ladder".

http://www.nsmba.bc.ca/structures/structuresmistakes.htm

Seeing that this style of riding originated in Canada, it seems fair to use their terminology. Must dash, I'm off for a bro-down. 🙂

Funny you should start this thread now, this illegally built ladder(ish) drop at Stainburn Forest is probably about to get torn down. It's been there about a year and even in the recent felling work the FC contractor left it standing. Unfortunately, it's been built directly below a badger set and just recently someone has started building DH lines right thru the set. This leaves us with no option but to either inform FC about it or destroy it ourselves (SingletrAction)which is what FC will do anyway.
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more info about it here if you're interested [url] http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stainburn-unauthorised-downhill-trail-building ][/url]

Surely that could be uprooted before the FC destroy it and relocated to somewhere quieter?

If you compare it to some of the FC authorised structures above, I don't think the FC structural engineer would be keen on it. 😉 SingletrAction can't get involved in relocating something like that, we need to keep FC on our side.

That thing at Staiburn looks pretty shonky to me anyway.

what the badger set?

Anyone thought of the curved wallride at GT? So much money encased in development through man hours and materials, open for 2 weeks, then closed again for no real reason. I think as an industry we need to look to other already established sports to see how they manage the risk. If they feel like it, a first time skier can travel to any snowpark, head for the pro line and launch a 30-40 foot kicker. Yet they still build them, and people get hurt, but no one sues the park builders. Are mountain bikers just slightly more retarded than our powder based bretherin? Perhaps. Perhaps a situation where everyone who wants to ride FC land has to join for a small fee (say, £1, for life) and sign a waiver. Problem sorted.

pigyn.

Waivers make no difference. You can only be sued if you are negligent and you cannot contract out of negligence.

I think there were real issues with that wallrides construction / shape / surface that reared their head after construction that no one foresaw - half a dozen in hospital the first weekend it was open or something like that - hence it would be negligent not to shut it until remedial action is taken.

Two things;

1) Forestry issued a spec on wooden structures - from memory, it has to be pressure treated timber, and replaced after a certain number of years. Someone with a copy of the spec will be able to say for sure.

2) It's not so much the expense of being sued that's the problem (FC / FE self-insures as a government body, so if they lose a case, it come out of the general purse) but the loss of man-hours - it takes a beat forester out of the loop for months to prepare for a case. In practice, that means less maintenance and building - and less time to look after trails.

I'm loving the kneejerk H&S gone MAAAAD! reactions here, but it's worth taking a look at how these decisions are reached before reaching for the Daily Mail.

Pigyn, one difference between mountain biking and skiing is pay-to-play. Another is that the risks are pretty well known to insurers, and so it's easier to insure, as Joemarshall (Hi, Joe!) says about skateparks.

FFS - this is nowt to do with "health and safety" There are still ladder drops on the freeride at GT and IIRC thr timber features at ewoc village are being rebuilt as they were rotting away.

H&S assessments for stuff like this is merely about minimisiug risk not eliminating it - so the stuff needs to be well built and sturdy and to have decent landings. Then its fine with a warning sign to say - "dangerous ladder drop - experienced riders only" like you see all over the FC trail centres

Well said that man!

Futureboy (HSE Advisor)

Plenty of ladder drops over Cannock Chase DH area, all FC approved. Some are fkign bad ass muthaz, esp on Walleater plus some new ones built on Balboa. Theyz iz notz 4 jeyboyz.

Part of 'Walleater' named after the famous cock svcking ex-pat.
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As I understand it (from someone posting on another forum who spoke directly to people involved, so it's sort of got some provenance) the ladder drops at Cwmcarn were removed after a lad broke his next or some similar serious accident on them. The whole area was refurbished not long before so the drops weren't structurally unsafe. The guy posting this is local to Cwmcarn and said he met the injured lads dad in the Freeride area, the Dad started asking questions about the drops and then explained what had happened to his son and then went on to say he was planning to sue the FC at which point to OP clammed up and rode off.

Could all be tinternet myth but the post o the other forum seemed pretty credible, judge for yourself [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12624288&highlight=cwmcarn+ladder+drops ]here[/url].

There were never any ladder drops at the Ewok village anyway. I think there was maybe one exit point that you had to lift the front wheel a wee bit, but I'm almost sure it was all rollable.

Stumpyjon, that may well be true, but it doesn't mean it was the FC's rationale for removing them.