Since the introduction of disc brakes I can't think of anything new that has made a significant improvment to riding. IMO adding more than 7 sprockets to a cassette is retrograde, except perhaps for racing, and narrower chains are likely to wear out faster. HT II also seems an equivocal improvement.
We've been saying this for, ohh, 20 years now. 😉
Most things have now been invented, yes, but the evoultion won't stop..... 🙂
EDIT
Anyway SFB, I didn't think you cared about bikes? 😉
they're just bikes, what were you expecting?
I'm working on the self-cleaning bike that once its got itself sparkling and lubed, then pours me a glass of Shiraz and makes me cheese on toast by the time I'm out of the shower
I guess suspension designs have come on a long way, and quality of materials. A lot of "improvements" might just be PR nonsense, like the idea of "superspace age materials" and the elusive "frictionless bearings".
my vote has to be lock on grips though. as a late convert, and a previous master of hairspray then cable ties then having grips slip off on fast, rainy, scottish singletrack, these things are magic.
I reckon we'll see gearbox bikes along with some serious efforts to reduce unsprung weight in full sus bikes. It's obviously already on the way, and it'll make a massive difference to maintenance and the responsiveness of suspension systems.
As above, the evolution is slow, but if you look at a bike in 10 years there will be a marked difference I'm sure, especially in the materials used.
Carbon Fibre technology will come on a fair bit and most likely become more affordable too.
Anyway SFB, I didn't think you cared about bikes?
not particularly no, this just came into my head while I was thinking about the expensive fork thing. I'm interested in reliability where it translates into 'surviving neglect' - but that doesn't seem to get much of a look-in 🙁
what were you expecting?
I'm not expecting anything other than riding them. I don't see lack of innovation as a bad thing provided they work properly. I suppose I'm decrying the constant incremental 'refinement' just to stimulate sales
With the invention of electricity, I can see electronically powered brakes and gears being developed very soon.
Snakebite and I finished our ride last Thursday night over Cannock Chase and I said pretty much the same thing to him. Our bikes just did what we needed of them and our lights allowed us to go as fast as we wanted.
Having been involved in mountain biking and windsurfing (recreationally) and commercial IT applications (professionally) for over 25 years I can see the same patterns. All of these were emerging technologies at first, with a huge rate of change and loads of developmental blind alleys. Now we've reached a position where all the basics are understood, there are very few (bikes, boards, sails, apps - insert as appropriate) that won't do the job, and the manufacturers have to find new ways of getting us to part with our cash.
Or it could just be that SFB and I are getting old and prefer the riding to the lure of shiny stuff.
I suppose I'm decrying the constant incremental 'refinement' just to stimulate sales
Have a read of Schumpeter's stuff on innovation & creative destruction. As a rule, we see pretty steady improvements, with revolutionary stuff happening on a far rarer basis.
Depends what you mean by 'innovation', and how and where you ride.
I'd venture geometry changes, bolt through forks, larger diameter stantions, dropper seatposts, and tubeless wheel setups. Whether you feel the advantage of any of those is of course dependent on how and where you ride, as I said.
I reckon we'll see gearbox bikes
Huh, tried that and found it wanting 🙁
As a rule, we see pretty steady improvements
changes yes, but improvements ?
With the invention of electricity, I can see electronically powered brakes and gears being developed very soon.
that will continue to work when wet ? "Oh, I can't ride, my bike needs charging..."
ie fashion ?I'd venture geometry changes
I'll give you that onebolt through forks
k...larger diameter stantions
scraping the barrel ?dropper seatposts
and tubeless wheel setups
hmmm, some seem to swear by tubeless, others say it's crap
I think as people we are becoming less "hardy" and more suited to the easier life with modern luxuries.
I can see people becoming sick of the effort involved with mountain biking, traipsing round some rainswept yorkshire moor on a Sunday afternoon when they could be at home watching the LCD.
I imagine the bike of the future to be an air conditioned, transparent, fully crash proof "cyclopod" where the cyclist can sit and enjoy the ride in comfort.
The problem with bikes is that the basic design is too good. The chain is so efficient gearboxes don't come close. Rear mechs aren't perfect but when not changing gear they add very little resistance. There's been over 100 years of people trying to improve bikes and so far all we've had is the C5, plus modern versions.
For 99.9% of riders, the current bike (maybe the Gocycle, but only going on what it looks like, I haven't ridden one) is still one of the best inventions ever. For the rest of us, there may be a few tweeks but again, what we have is pretty well perfect.
Innovation you say?
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Slow speed damping/pedal platforms allowing more than a couple of inches travel on trail bikes, air sprung shocks, dropping seatposts, hydroformed tubing and twin ring chainguides. Nothing groundbreaking and mostly existing products applied to biking but so were disc brakes and suspension. IIRC the only inventions that were specifically for the bicycle were the pneumatic tyre and derailleur gears so no groundbreaking innovation for years.
what we have is pretty well perfect.
I would question that in terms of stuff wearing out far too quickly, but that's not much of a sales point, so unlikley to attract much engineering support 🙁
Binners, how much for the shiraz bike? I'll take two.
Its all academic anyway. They could invent bikes with thought controlled gearboxes, traction controlled 2 wheel drive and on-board blow jobs and you lot would still ride some weird steel singlespeed 29er 😛
Innovations that have genuinely moved riding on (in my time, say last 25 years):
indexed gears
spds
suspension
disc brakes
Next step has to be gearboxes or similar IMO.
Gary. I'm having slight teething problems. It keeps forgetting the Worcestor sauce and has recently developed a penchant for Merlot. Which... as we all know is a brute of a grape
Yep. Once the gears get sorted we're done.
😀
I think they will invent a lightweight and simple way of storing the kinetic energy that is currently lost from both braking and being sucked up by suspension and storing it so that you can then either release it when you need a boost - kind of like a bike nitro or maybe use it for charging battery devices such as lights, gps, smartphones etc.
Upside down forks.
Common on motorcycles now, so why are they so rare on bicycles ?
Hub gears.
If they could be made light, cheap and efficient they would take over from derailleurs.
since disc brakes the following has changed my riding.
waterproof jacket, not shower resistant, not starts waterproofish but doesnt last but a real and easily maintainable waterproof jacket.
lights - small neat lights of acceptable weight, good burn times, great light output.
tubeless wheels/tyres - i live in a flinty, hawthorn and bramble filled world. The time i used to spend fixing tubes i can now preach the UST gosple on STW.
As it has become more popular the manufactures have made lots of small imporvemnts all round. They are competing for your money afterall. (some are marketing bollocks, but most bikes now are better than they were 10 years ago generally).
As for groundbreaking - I dont see anything, just continued small improvements down to better materials being used. Gearboxes are not needed as the std setup copes well enough.
I would just like stuff to last longer and weigh less and cost less - oh and Id like the moon on a stick as well please.
Bicycles and Tricycles: An Elementary Treatise on Their Design and Construction
Archibald Sharp only had so many ideas that could be recycled over the years.
Gearboxes are not needed as the std setup copes well enough.
On a FS bike, there are issues with the chain tension altering depending on the gear you're in, and the entire cassette / freehub / rear mech assembly is a fair chunk of unsprung weight, which reduces the performance of the suspension.
It'll come in from DH, and as soon as the price / reliability compromise is right, the whole world and his dog will want one, given that you'll be able to lose all the above parts and a chainring & mech.
gearboxes and beltdrives are what im hoping for
uppydowny seatposts once reliability issues are sorted
bikes and components have got stiffer and stronger over the years, you just dont realise it now because our riding has got more aggressive/ ive put on more weight
i mean could you imagine riding a 1990s rigid hardtail with v brakes or even an elastomer sprung fork down the megavalanche course?!
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, it can be argued that cameras and electric guitars/amplifiers reached their design pinnacle about 50 years ago - yes, cameras have gone digital, but the basic design remains the same, we've just replaced film with a sensor. All the additional bits and bobs added since then are just fripperies.
Bike design may go the same way - electronically controlled suspension, riding mode/travel switches, automatically adjustable terrain-dependant geometry etc.
I'm sure tyres will get stickier and longer lasting, various other incremental design improvements will be made, but I reckon that might just be it for a good few years.
I think there may be more innovation in our riding gear than our bikes over the next few years TBH.
it can be argued that cameras and electric guitars/amplifiers reached their design pinnacle about 50 years ago
I'm not buying THAT!! Digital allows anyone to take as many shots as they like and see the results straight away, encouraging experimentation without massive cost, and 'digital darkrooms' are massively quicker than splashing about in the dark!
Polaroids let you see photo's pretty instantly too. And are COOL!
High powered LEDs with decent battery run-times - has unlocked the world of night riding.
Tunable suspension damping, esp. on forks - can retain control at high speeds where rigid forks imposed a speed limit to avoid your eyeballs rattling out.
I think there's a lot gone on in frame design and materials but it's harder for a layman cyclist to pick it out.
Simon, the basic design architecture of a DSLR today is exactly the same as the first SLR's of the 50's and 60's.
I agree with you that digital is far more convenient than film, but it hasn't changed the fundamental design of the camera.
Whether subjective picture quality has improved is a discussion for another time 😀
I agree with you that digital is far more convenient than film, but it hasn't changed the fundamental design of the camera.
I'm not asking about [b]fundamental[/b] design...
Isn't it about time someone reinvented the wheel?
No but I was talking about basic design, as stated in my first post, as well you know.
I've broken my first rule of Singletrack again haven't I? 🙂
Tunable suspension damping, esp. on forks - can retain control at high speeds where rigid forks imposed a speed limit to avoid your eyeballs rattling out.
I've been riding more and more without any suspension, to get the same thrill at a lower velocity to reduce the opportunity of a career limiting injury.. as my bikes have got better I've just ridden them faster till I get the same effect on control and lungs.
Last revolution in guitar tech was amp modelling really - that's just reproducing sounds that are years old in a more convenient format. No bad thing but not revolutionary I'd say other than for my back 🙂
Has MTB innovation reached a dead end ?
In some ways, I hope it has. It's more of a distraction than a pleasure. I like stuff that works well (most stuff does now), doesn't need much fettling and lasts ages (that's the hard part).
Agreed. If they stopped trying to puff the latest whizz-bang same difference they might concentrate on value for money instead!
Probably the biggest innovation in the last 15 years has been in the terrain we now ride. I was thinking as I rode up a hugely horrible climb on my 32lb 6" travel AM full suss last week that even when I was the Scottish MTB champion I could not ride my 24lb hardtail up this bas&*rd; and yet I'm less fit now but I made it to the top with a heavier bike and no dabs (yes, I could have walked it but I ain't no soft southern jessie, if it can be ridden it has to be).
I didn't have much time to think about the same on the descent but back in the day it really was a struggle on the race hardtail with many sections that needed walking... once again the big bike worked it's magic and the descent while still difficult was brilliant and I rode it all.
Oh how we laughed at Proflex and the other first suspension bikes... it will never catch on... disc brakes are heavy and you don't need all that power... SPD's will never replace clips and straps... thumbshifters are the best... elastomers are all you need for suspension... 2" inch travel is enough for world cup DH... you don't need a bigger tyre than 1.9".
We still have a load of roady orientated out of date bits and pieces that could do with some innovation. I snapped a saddle the other day... would not have happened with the I-Beam on my other bike.
HammerSchmidt is awesome - make it lighter please?
I've not gone for a droppy seatpost yet but I probably will soon once they get more reliable (I hate rattles on my bikes).
I'm not for going back and I watch each year for the little things that are real improvements... (although I do enjoy riding my 20 lb rigid singlespeed just as much as my other bikes) It's all bikes and it's all great.
Probably the biggest innovation in the last 15 years has been in the terrain we now ride
Pardon ?? Do you mean the terrain the latest bikes allow you to ride ?? When I switched back to a hardtail I carried on riding the same stuff I'd ridden on my full suss bike without really noticing much difference - though admittedly that might reflect my lack of skill 🙂
Obviously he means you can ride the same stuff faster and easier.
No... I meant that it can now be ridden instead of walked round.
Agreed. If they stopped trying to puff the latest whizz-bang same difference they might concentrate on value for money instead!
I think the new Sektor forks use all the bits from last years Pikes, Revs & Recons, so with no R&D costs you get a good fork at a bargain price.
But I might be wrong.
Obviously he means you can ride the same stuff faster and easier.
if that were the case then he wouldn't have said
Probably the biggest innovation in the last 15 years has been in the terrain we now ride
because the same terrain isn't an innovation, and neither is going faster.
Last year I built a retro ride - Dave Lloyd Cats Wiskas - 2" travel forks, flat bars and bar ends with Canti brakes. I snapped two pace forks (including a modern RC31) and eventually decided to limit what I tried to do with it before I broke it or it broke me.
It was fun but ultimately limiting. I took it on one of my favourite big rides thinking it would be capable. It was okay on the climb but I had no chance of making a couple of the tricky bits on the descent which I tried a few times but eventually walked. When I got the bottom I was happy but it was more with relief than pleasure.
My Whyte 19 modern geometry hardtail with 120mm forks is a pleasure to take down round that route...
What would we have made of Glentress and Laggan etc 20 years ago? In all Likelyhood some of the bits we all love and all ride now would have been deemed unrideable. Innovation is great.
Riding is generally faster than walking is it not? 🙂
How is innovation designed to let you ride faster, not innovation?
What would we have made of Glentress and Laggan etc 20 years ago? In all Likelyhood some of the bits we all love and all ride now would have been deemed unrideable
Good point. Think of the stuff people have been doing on freeride bikes. No chance 20 years ago.
When I got the bottom I was happy but it was more with relief than pleasure.
where is this gnarly pleasure drome ?
How is innovation designed to let you ride faster, not innovation?
the innovation is the design, not the speed
If you were to compare a £3k full susser from 2000 with a £3k full sussr from this year what would be the main differeces?
Not a lot I'd wager apart from maybe a trickle down in terms of quality of componentry. But in terms of technological leaps forward? Not a great deal - Tubeless tyres, pro pedal damping.... more baby steps / refinements rather than big breakthroughs.
I think the next big thing will be around the transmission, but doubt it will ever come to fruition.
the innovation is the design, not the speed
What?
"I've been riding more and more without any suspension, to get the same thrill at a lower velocity"
I like the feel of controlling the back-end kicking and sliding around on my HT to an extent. But I don't miss the blurred vision from a rigid fork!
I do get the "retro" philosophy - doing more with less - is the same in climbing. As you improve, the technology is needed less and less.
I recently speced a custom build bike - price no object. I chose the best forks and brakes i could buy and a Hammerschmidt. The rest of the stuff is not that new in terms of tech, just good quality stuff that works well and should last well.
So for me its brakes, suspension and recenlty transmission that are moveing forward.
I dont see a leap comming up soon though. Just small improvements. One thing is different, the terrain we can all ride now is much more difficult on an older style bike. Imagine doing a trail center back in the early 90's. You could do it, yes, but on your normal all mountain bike now its eaiser, faster and more fun.
Geometry has changed a lot in the last 10 years... going away from the roady "arse up face down cheat the wind" performance oriented to a geometry that actually aids the better riding of more interesting terrain.
where is this gnarly pleasure drome ?
It's a mountain... in Scotland... close to where I live...
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How come people keep going on about transmission and gear boxes. Do we not have alfine, rolhoff etc already. And the ST 3-speed has been round for donkeys!
The thing about innovation, real new innovation is that no one currenlty knows what it is or where its coming from. If it happens its likely to be a bolt from the blue, utterly unexpected.
My guess would be electricity being involved somehow, then you could tie transmission to braking, two wheel drive all sorts of interesting ideas. But would that be classed as innovation, or evolution??
but on your normal all mountain bike now its eaiser, faster and more fun.
I don't want the riding to be easy, I want challenge, and I don't care about speed - that just means it's over sooner.
How come people keep going on about transmission and gear boxes
Because it'll move from being something built into the back wheel to something that's attached to the frame or built into the bottom bracket.
I think Alfine and Rolhof are OK, but put a bit of weight too far back and upset most riders "prefered" feel of weight distribution. We need a similar thing in the center of the bike, not at the rear.
My Hammerschmit for me sorted the things I dont like about front mechs. But a lot of that is a personal choice and typ of riding choice.
My guess would be electricity being involved somehow
my experience has me always ride with 2 lights in case one fails, so I'd not be happy with electric brakes or a transmission that gave up the ghost when the battery went flat 🙁
but on your normal all mountain bike now its eaiser, faster and more fun.I don't want the riding to be easy, I want challenge, and I don't care about speed - that just means it's over sooner.
I'm trying to visualize your riding....ahah, you are a trials rider!
Mountain bike components that don't die at the first sign of mud would be handy.
Some innovations are good and some are not. I have a Rohloff gearbox bike languishing in the garage - the drivetrain is draggy and it weights quite a lot, but it was fun for six years.
It's replacement has a HammerSchmidt and is 10 lbs lighter. The HS is not perfect, for the application much better than a front mech IMHO.
I like the feel of controlling the back-end kicking and sliding around on my HT to an extent. But I don't miss the blurred vision from a rigid fork!
Or the ****ed wrists, I'd forgotten all about that 🙂
But I was younger and healed quicker...
I am almost serious about going slower / feeling faster though - I've seen a lot of people have horrible offs as they were riding fast and the speed being a contributing factor to the seriousness of the end result. If you can't go that fast... there is the counter argument that the gear gets you out of trouble old kit wouldn't have (really notice this in narrow ruts where a suss fork will often help pull you out) of course.
I do get the "retro" philosophy - doing more with less - is the same in climbing. As you improve, the technology is needed less and less.
Often a backlash to the cycle of user/manufacturer development.
[i]I want to ride that place, but this widget always breaks first.[/i]
OK here's a better widget
[i]Cool, now I rode place A, I wonder if your widget will handle place B?...ooops no, it broke[/i]
Yeah? Well here's an even better widget
[i]Oh thanks, wow place B was awesome. But I'd like to go faster.[/i]
Man...ok here's widget rev C, what do you think?
[i]Perfect! Although bit of a problem - went back to place A....no challenge anymore...your parts make stuff too easy[/i]
&*&^*!!....you are a fussy ****....OK well here's widget rev A again, but we now call it 'retro'. I suppose you want it in purple?
[i]Oh that's ideal! Yeah I feel a purer rider, now I don't need that better thing[/i]
*facepalm*
I think the change in bike geometry has to be the biggest change in mountain biking. I still sometimes ride a fairly old hardtail which I've made fully rigid, just as it was originally when I bought it. It's great fun and I enjoy it, but it's a world apart from riding my modern full suspension bike. I can climb more, descend more confidently and generally 'clean' much more terrain on the modern bike. Brakes are hardly that big a difference to be honest, other than the V brakes eat through blocks in the mud, so I'm surprised you even mention disks. I always thought that when I added suspension forks to my bike, that made a big difference to the way you could ride.
and I don't care about speed
But lots of us do. Personally, I LOVE going fast off road. 🙂
Well I think there's a revolution on the way.
It's called the 4" tyre and it will change everything.
It's called the 4" tyre and it will change everything.
specifically, it would stop my bike from going 🙂
I hope not. I'd like to think that there'll be a revolution in cheap, mass produced components in carbon like its got cheap and mass produced for frames. New processes mean that better carbon weave and carbon alternatives will make their way into bike design. Materials being developed for clothing are already generating electricity to charge personal devices like phones so you could generate electricity from fork movement or frame flex to power monitoring and management devices. How about a bike that uses GPS, wheel and gyroscopic sensors to change shock and fork travel, seat height or even frame geometry to the terrain as you ride? And smart frame materials could electrically be stiffened or relaced to vary handling and comfort. We could get bottom-bracket based transmission with an infinite range of ratios controlled by computer so that cadence remains constant whatever the gradient and however much force you pedal with.
You could even have rear proximity sensors that play the funeral march through your earphones literally seconds before you're run flat by a daft old biddy in a P-reg Peugeot 105.
How about a bike that uses GPS, wheel and gyroscopic sensors to change shock and fork travel, seat height or even frame geometry to the terrain as you ride?
SAY WHAT ??? "Welcome to the Apple iBike. Steve Jobs says you need 6" of travel on this trail". Ye gods!
And smart frame materials could electrically be stiffened or relaced to vary handling and comfort.
That's a cool idea.
You could even have rear proximity sensors that play the funeral march through your earphones literally seconds before you're run flat by a daft old biddy in a P-reg Peugeot 105.
An even better one!
Think you are right about carbon getting cheaper. Eventually. Now it's getting more mainstream, I'm sure the idea of paying £7500 for a bike frame will look increasingly ridiculous.
Pity it's non-bidodegradable and very hard to recycle though. There will so much of it knocking around soon in obsolete designs.
The biggest advancement in cycling would be to stop worrying about innovation and just ride your bike. Maybe try new things; learn new skills?
The innovation I'd welcome the most is a big "Steve Peat" button in the middle of my forehead that would disable my sense of self-preservation when things got steep. I could hit the SP button and ride down stuff instead of slamming on the brakes, dismounting and carrying the bike down like the big Wendy I am.