managed a mighty average speed of 8.5 mph according to my garmin, seems I need to train more.
Heres a question, what magical nirvana would be achieved by upping the cut off to 20?
Last 4 solo ebike rides, average speed 9-9.8mph on my killing machine. Most I average in summer is around 11mph
20, 18, 17.5, anything but bloody 15mph. Ride one and see how annoying it is. Removing it just makes it more fluid
Ride one and see how annoying it is. Removing it just makes it more fluid
The purpose of the cut off is not to stop you having a fluid ride… it’s to make e-bikes compatible with mixed use cycle infrastructure. Surely that is more important than you getting a more fluid ride. The speed restriction in turn allows us to have a category of motorised bike that is exempt from the regulation to which most motorised bikes are subject.
In short, the imperative of regulating e-bikes trumps the desire of a minority group i.e. mountain bikers, to have a more fluid ride.
average speed 9-9.8mph on my killing machine
No-one is accusing you of using your e-bike like a killing machine.
Perhaps it’s not the speed limiter that’s going to cause problems for us but the power? The ability to keep at 15mph up hill and down dale (literally) can cause friction with other trail users, horse riders, walkers and us ATB users don’t expect a bicycle hurtling towards us, uphill.
We’ve probably all met trail riders riding considerately, quiet exhausts and pausing to let you past. We’ve probably met others hurtling past at speed, spraying debris up and, occasionally abuse too.
Which do you remember? Do you remember the nice ones or the others?
"The ability to keep at 15mph up hill and down dale (literally) can cause friction with other trail users, horse riders, walkers and us ATB users don’t expect a bicycle hurtling towards us, uphill."
It's both the power and the speed. We've had bikes hurtling downhill for more than a century - it's not a new thing. What is a new thing is bikes silently accelerating VERY fast, being able to go fast on the flat with minimal effort so it happens more often and more often under less experienced/competent riders, and being able to go uphill fast (which I notice surprises car drivers on the road, when I'm pedalling like a singlespeeder who's running late but with the motor on turbo, and that's on an old heavy full-sus ebike with draggy tyres and the legal speed limiter - they pull out because they don't expect a bike to go uphill that quickly!)
I’ve become a complete convert to e-bikes. I just love mine. I have a lightweight one and a full power one. I’ve been riding them pretty much exclusively now for a year and a half. Here’s the thing. In that time, when I’ve ridden more often than ever before (i pretty much ride 5-10km off-road every day now), I have never once felt any kind of speed limiter cut off. I genuinely have never felt myself hitting some kind of cut off or limit.
Admittedly, I don’t ride on the road or commute. But im surprised that I have no personal experience with this issue, which seems to be such a deal breaker for so many people.
A few thoughts on some of the points coming up,
15kg bike or 25kg e-bike, I don't think it makes little difference in terms of risk to others. Speed matters most there and it's downhill >15mph where that's most likely to be an issue. I don't see e-bikes being a greater risk in that way.
Speed restrictions aren't changing any time soon so not really a discussion point. Chipped bikes that do more than 15mph assisted - that's your lookout, it's an illegal moped but if you're riding with consideration for others and the trails why would I care. Bigger issues in the world..
Trail access for e-MTBs may be a challenge/fear but unless the laws and regulations are changed, an EPAC is a bike and can go where bikes go. I don't see that changing easily or suddenly. And .. I ride trails where I'm not supposed to be on my pedal bikes. I don't dig daft trails or ride like a d1ck and I do no harm so I don't see the issue riding a few quiet footpaths here and there. If that's how you approach riding and trails that are usually shared with others, it just doesn't matter whether you're on an e-bike or not imo.
I think this is may be more of a concern in the US and it's a valid concern for all, but I still think it's more complex to do anything about than acting on the simple message of max power concern with an EPAC power cap. Address the needs of cargo bikes via type/use classifications within the EPAC regs (MTBs already have a clear type or use class) and we could set a power limit for some EPACs inc MTBs.
FWIW I have no axe to grind here, I've ridden e-MTBs and they were fun but I have zero urge to own one. It makes no odds to me what happens with e-MTB access. I just think that all the problems are with the irresponsible users not the product itself.
@jameso; yes I suspect the issues are mainly in the USA, where apparently many trails are still forbidden for e-bikes. For example, around Whistler - I think Lord of the Squirrels is a no-e-bikes trail. So I think Hans’ point is that if e-bikes aren’t regulated, then increased trail access may stall, due to folks riding e-mopeds.
I have never once felt any kind of speed limiter cut off. I genuinely have never felt myself hitting some kind of cut off or limit.
I ride to my local trails and definitely feel the limiter kick in when I'm on the road. It's like hitting a big patch of glue. I've started just turning the assistance off for sections where I know I'll be over 15.5mph
The only time I've ever felt it kick in off road when was when pedalling to get a bit of extra speed to clear a gap. Otherwise the speed limit has never been an issue off road as I can't pedal 15.5mph uphill and I usually don't pedal at all on proper downhill sections.
I don’t ride on the road or commute. But im surprised that I have no personal experience with this issu
I don't really feel it on mine either, I know it's happening, but on the sort of terrain where you're going over 15.5mph, it doesn't make much difference [edit: Yes, except on the road sections, but then... just chill.] It is a lightweight bike though. I did used to feel it more on my Bosch motor Cannondale.
Quoting for context 🙂
'but unless the laws and regulations are changed, an EPAC is a bike and can go where bikes go. I don't see that changing easily or suddenly.
I think this is may be more of a concern in the US and it's a valid concern for all, but I still think it's more complex to do anything about than acting on the simple message of max power concern with an EPAC power cap. '
Actually I can see another problem that can change quickly. A very high % of E-bikes are sold as commuter wagons, a lot , lot more than are used for mtb. Start bumping up that power and start to mess around with that 25 kmh limit, and you might well be required to get a helmet and insurance via losing the bicycle status.
At this point your more powerful MTB isn't legal for the road, isn't legal as a commuter bike in Europe, amd getting caught comes using as such come with usual consequences.. Plus I can't see that making a motor that's a lot more niche is going to do anything for spares availability, price etc....
Start bumping up that power and start to mess around with that 25 kmh limit, and you might well be required to get a helmet and insurance via losing the bicycle status.
In Germany you can buy S-pedelecs, E-Bikes that will reach 45kmh. But you need a number plate, a helmet and can't use all bike paths.
@who, there already are commuter restyle ‘speed pedelecs’, type-approved 28mph limited e-bikes that are basically mopeds as far as road rules and regulations go. There aren’t any real MTB versions but if there were I can see them blurring some lines in ways that could cause problems. Still, it’s into illegal use if they’re used on bike trails and most ROWs.
edit, beaten to it 🙂
How do they compare price wise?
To those who've adapted their bikes to go faster than the laws allow - why not just by one of these and ride it illegally?
You can get a Maeving for £5k.
Speed restrictions aren't changing any time soon so not really a discussion point. Chipped bikes that do more than 15mph assisted - that's your lookout, it's an illegal moped but if you're riding with consideration for others and the trails why would I care. Bigger issues in the world..
Trail access for e-MTBs may be a challenge/fear but unless the laws and regulations are changed, an EPAC is a bike and can go where bikes go. I don't see that changing easily or suddenly. And .. I ride trails where I'm not supposed to be on my pedal bikes. I don't dig daft trails or ride like a d1ck and I do no harm so I don't see the issue riding a few quiet footpaths here and there. If that's how you approach riding and trails that are usually shared with others, it just doesn't matter whether you're on an e-bike or not imo.
I agree with the first bit to some extent (on the roads/cyclelanes of the UK), I think E-bikes are now an established thing the assistance limit is fair without seeking to enable unlicensed mopeds, those that want to keep using them need to accept a bit of responsibility. And while I take the point that riding a chipped one is sort of a personal choice that (potentially) doesn’t affect others… until it does and you pile into someone’s Nan and some baby robins at 30mph, then it really matters and it very much becomes that whole libertarian “personal choices and responsibilities” sort of argument, I feel like enforcement needs to be significant as in driving licence gone, big fines for “riding an unlicensed, uninsured motorcycle” sort of significant just to give the choice some consequential setting.
Such cases are (hopefully) rare though, but they do fuel the Daily Mail commentary, so eeeeb fanboys beware of disproportionately damaging your own “cause” with what you might only consider minor ****tery.
I suppose the use on trails is different, and the bit that needs some consideration by eeeberists. My own view (as a non-E-biker) is that a simple rule to abide by would be if it’s pointed down just turn off the assistance (I assume people would by default anyway?). It can’t be doing that much, and as I’m constantly told it’s just about squeezing more miles into less time the main gain has to be on climbs right? But yeah turn it back into a (heavier) MTB for the fun bits, the leccy is only there to help you speed run the boring bits (supposedly)…
My own view (as a non-E-biker) is that a simple rule to abide by would be if it’s pointed down just turn off the assistance (I assume people would by default anyway?). It can’t be doing that much, and as I’m constantly told it’s just about squeezing more miles into less time the main gain has to be on climbs right? But yeah turn it back into a (heavier) MTB for the fun bits, the leccy is only there to help you speed run the boring bits (supposedly)
On a DH, there’s no need to turn it off as you’re past the limiter pretty quickly or freewheeling anyway. If there’s an uphill section, well that’s no longer DH is it? Short sharp rises you might easily crank up on a much lighter bike can be difficult on an e-bike with dodgy knees.
And while I take the point that riding a chipped one is sort of a personal choice that (potentially) doesn’t affect others… until it does and you pile into someone’s Nan and some baby robins at 30mph, then it really matters and it very much becomes that whole libertarian “personal choices and responsibilities” sort of argument, I feel like enforcement needs to be significant as in driving licence gone, big fines for “riding an unlicensed, uninsured motorcycle” sort of significant just to give the choice some consequential setting.
Agreed, yet you can kill someone while driving and not lose your license so I doubt e-bike use will have much impact there. The equivalence of car power Vs road speed limits and EPAC power + speed limitations is probably another topic or just whataboutery. Still, I can understand why some think EPAC limits are a bit silly.
Happened a while back
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce82z6xnen5o
Chipped ebike
Capable of 27mph
Hit and killed pedestrian
No evidence he was riding recklessly at the time.
250 fine and 6 month driving ban
yet you can kill someone while driving and not lose your license
^ I was wrong on that - seems that a driving ban is part of the majority of serious driving offences. My impression of the sentences being too lenient (imo) gave me that idea, but, nope.
Meanwhile locally to be two people were fined more 80000 NOK each for driving an e scooter drunk on the road plus points and it\s iimplied the same for a chipped bike .
Charged for riding motorised vehicle illegally, no insurance, no proper helmet, drunk and so on
^ I was wrong on that - seems that a driving ban is part of the majority of serious driving offences. My impression of the sentences being too lenient (imo) gave me that idea, but, nope.
I was also unaware of that case, the obvious parallel is there to be drawn with with everyone’s favourite junior hipster Charlie Alliston, who got 18 months (in a young offenders institute?)
No motor in that instance, but his decision to remove brakes from his fixie must have factored in the verdict and sentencing what he was riding still constituted a “bicycle”. A chipped E-bike that can top 27mph is an unlicensed motor vehicle by current legal definition right?
So someone more legally literate explain the differing sentences (or are they broadly equivalent)? Am I better off killing somebody with a Chipped E-bike or moped than a brakeless fixie? (Asking for a friend)…
Edit: Re-reading the article it seems ignorance is now an accepted defence.
Those proudly owning up to chipping their E-bikes would be well advised to go scrub their interweb postings, just in case they ever need to make use of that little nugget 😉
