MTB legend asks if it is time to draw a line in the sand of when e-bikes become "too powerful"
Agree with him, but it's all pie in the sky. It's just too late now. Bit like social media, it developed into the shitheap it is now before the realisation that it needs to be regulated. Some people make a living out of illegally chipping, what Hans terms as "E-bicycle (EMTB)". Marking the bikes with their category would be a waste of time.
I'm with him too. It's bad enough where I live as it is. Basically our corner of Germany rules it's illegal biking on anything in the forests narrower than 2 metres so we depend on goodwill and being nice, to be tolerated on singletracks. Ripping around on electric motorbikes will just piss everyone off further and create heavy enforcement and / or bans....
Bike parks: go for it. Street riding: enforcement of current regs and German police have mini-dynos to check bikes. Natural trails: e-pedelecs meeting current regs.
Natural singletrack... I can see it becoming a bigger issue. Bikes wizzing past walkers is enough of a problem as it is without extra e-powered speed. No-one wants to be the 2wheeled equivalent of a jetski.
He's right about getting the language sorted too. It's been mentioned that the BBC refer to chipped and overpowered Surrons as E-bikes when they are clearly not as we know but to the uninformed they are all the same.
I'm with him as well, and not just for MTBs - the lack of regulation (or at least enforcement of regulation) on ebikes in general massively undermines their potential for decarbonising transport.
This is being discussed on EMTB forum at the moment and two interesting things have been mentioned...
Hans Rey is now a Bosch ambassador, and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor:
Avinox: 1000w
Specialized: 850w
Mahle: 850w
Yamaha: 800w
Bosch: 750w
Shimano: 600w
100% agree. When you limit ebikes to 15mph-ish and 600W-ish, they're far less likely to take pedestrians and other vehicles by surprise. We're all used to bikes going fast downhill. No-one is used to tiny silent vehicles on bike lanes or in the countryside doing 20mph+ on the flat or uphill.
I still have to slow down on my ebike for dog walkers etc, especially with younger people often wearing headphones (is no-one else paranoid about not hearing things?!) or older people being deaf, but at least even at full tilt it's doing 15 not 30!
and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like... and to stay "competitive" might well have to... that they haven't yet built an ebike motor that can deliver peak 2000w for 20mins, stretching the intent of current regulation to breaking point, is because they have so far chosen not to. They are not using an ambassador to cover up limitations they have in delivering motor technology... their current offerings don't even touch on what they could do if they didn't care about the consequences for the European market and users.
Rather than the apparent focus on creating forever increasing power outputs, I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Too powerful is too far from what an e-bike is. IMO obviously. I'd rather have better reliability, greater range and less weight than more power.
and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like... and to stay "competitive" might well have to... that they haven't yet built an ebike motor that can deliver peak 2000w for 20mins, stretching the intent of current regulation to breaking point, is because they have so far chosen not to. They are not using an ambassador to cover up limitations they have in delivering motor technology... their current offerings don't even touch on what they could do if they didn't care about the consequences for the European market and users.
I have a bike with the lowest powered/oldest of the current motors (EP801-RS), which I'm more than happy with... so I don't really have a horse in the race. I just through it was an interesting observation.
No-one is used to tiny silent vehicles on bike lanes or in the countryside doing 20mph+ on the flat or uphill.Umm - road bikes? Sure they'll slow down climbing but 20+ on the flat isnt unusual.
The 15.5mph limit is annoying on the flat on eMTBs too, and almost feels dangerous when cycling on the roads with cars to and from the trails. I could certainly pedal my non-eMTBs faster than that. I just turn the assist off, but then motor drag is annoying. Still, it's a means to an end to get to the trails.
FFIW I don't think I'm much faster on my eMTB, the climbs are just a bit easier. I'm definitely not doing 15.5mph up climbing trails.
All excellent points from Hans, just half a decade late, those of us who've said similar in the past have been shouted down and accused of being the fun police...
So I'm inclined to shrug and give it a big old "meh" the horse has bolted at this point. The available products have outstripped the rules and Reg's (globally) there are customers who already in the "Biggest number mean betterer, me go fasterist!" mindset and enforcement (again globally) is miles behind it all...
The dire prognostications will now come to pass and the Ban hammer shall start to fall randomly in various jurisdictions as edge lords with chipped E-bikes merrily kick grannies to the floor and fling roost about acting like tossers in everyone's local woods...
My advice if you want to avoid it all, just don't buy an E-bike, get the skinniest tubed, impossible to mistake for an eeeeb, unassisted MTB and enjoy the lack of molestation by authorities and busybodies (for now at least).
With attitudes like this from a British manufacturer -
I don’t think the future of electrically assisted bicycles is in good hands.
I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Yep. It's good that Bosch aren't getting involved in the higher wattage arms race. Hopefully they are more into the reliability - they've already made them quieter (according to the website), which sways me in their direction for my eventual next emtb.
Was the point I was making in the Fresh Goods Friday chat about the Megamo bike that promoted the 1000w output over the fact it was 250w compliant e-bike, so STW culpable here too.
They should have called it 1kW, sound even more gnar. 😒
Berm Peak did a good YouTube video about the potential, (as I believe it's not been 100% rubber stamped yet) massive restrictions on e-bikes of all types a few weeks ago.
Rather than the apparent focus on creating forever increasing power outputs, I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Too powerful is too far from what an e-bike is. IMO obviously. I'd rather have better reliability, greater range and less weight than more power.
This. Motor reliability and efficiency is more important than max power. If motors were more efficient at the same power then batteries and the overall weight could come down or range be extended. Far more useful than hitting the speed limiter a little bit quicker
The legal limit is 250w continuous power, there's no limit on peak or maximum power.
The 250w peak limit is not there to limit your speed, it's for motor safety. Although it could be much higher and still be safe with modern motors.
Since you mention Megamo, which has the same motor as the Amflow, here's Amflow's own explanation on the difference:
What is an e-bike’s peak power?
Peak power represents the maximum output the motor can achieve for short bursts, usually during acceleration or climbing steep hills. The higher an e-bike motor’s peak power, the better it is going to be able to assist you when you’re blasting up steep inclines, between those beautiful flowy downhill sections. If you’re already an e-MTBer, this ability to get quickly and more easily back to the trailhead is probably one of the things that most attracted you to the discipline in the first place.
What is an e-bike’s continuous power?
Continuous power refers to the motor's sustained output over an extended period, typically measured in watts. This rating indicates how much power the motor can deliver consistently without overheating, ensuring reliable performance during long rides.
Continuous power is a regulated feature of electric bikes. In the United Kingdom, e-bikes may only have a maximum of 250 watts of continuous power output. In Germany, and other EU countries, the upper limit is set also at 250 watts. In the United States of America, the upper limit for continuous power is a huge 750 watts, although the laws also vary from state to state, and there are further restrictions and classifications of e-bikes related to maximum speed.
People in the UK might think the 25km/h limit is a pain on the road, but here in Europe I have to share a mixed use bike lane with these, people running, e-scooters and people with prams as riding on the road isnt the thing. So i think the speed linit is fine, but Id like more enforcement.
The difference between e bikes, e mopeds and Surrons is very small. The big difference is where you took a pedal bike, and added a motor
I agree with Hans. Keep regs and limits as they are. More enforcement and education needed both on the streets and in off road. Harsh opinion maybe but if you can pedal your non e-bike full suss faster than 16mph on the flat over a sustained distance long enough that makes a meaningful difference to your journey time then maybe you should ride that non e-bike instead 😉
I don’t have an eMTB but I can push my Tern GSD over the assist level on nice flat sections and gentle downhills… but on my 20 mile each way commute I am happy with my 16mphish cutout. If it cut out at 20 then I’d be riding in assist all the time.
It could be 1MW max and we'd still be stuck with 15.5mph
I think you need to have another look. Llandegla most of the KOMs are taken by bikes going uphill with avg speeds above 20mph. I was surprised just how many bikes have been de restricted
To me it’s then about safety and trail damage.
Speaking to the trail staff at Llandegla they said e-bikes are massively effecting the ware on their trails
So Amflow think an ebike and riding one is a discipline? Interesting...
I'm not sure it is as it allows the rider to ride whatever discipline they want, just on a motor-assisted pedal bike.
I've no skin in the game as I've no ebike, but it is interesting hearing how companies frame all this kind of stuff.
I think he’s completely correct. I think it will cause huge damage to the future of e-bikes if they are lumped together with e-mopeds or e-motorbikes. I can see why places in the USA ban them.
I’ve agreed with the maximum power restriction, but like the assist speed restriction it is utterly pointless if motor/bike brands allow the restrictions to be removed. I’d go as far as to say the only way out of the hole being dug is for the law to be changed to remove the “for use on private land” get out clause, and for sales to be limited to bikes that can not be easily adapted to exceed the limits set out for path, road and public land use in the country of use. If it’s left to manufacturers, there will always be some other brand taking your sales by allowing derestrictions, or a retailer importing bikes from another market with different rules. Without national rules on sales and importing (rather than just on use) setting out any rules on power, speed or % of assist is pretty much useless… while removing/changing restrictions is made trivial, enough riders will adapt their bikes and ignore the rules to blur the lines and endanger ebike access for all.
The legal limit is 250w continuous power, there's no limit on peak or maximum power.
The 250w peak limit is not there to limit your speed, it's for motor safety. Although it could be much higher and still be safe with modern motors.
I say it on all the time and I get shouted down all the time, but continuous power is a minimum power test, not a maximum power test.
Maximum continuous power suggests you should be fine with a smaller less powerful motor. That is not the case. If you had a motor that could only deliver 200W Continuous power (ie, in the lab conditions specified the temperature would not have stabilised after 30 minutes) then that ebike would be illegal to sell. If you had a motor that was capable of delivering 5000W continuous power but you slapped a '250W continuous power' sticker on it would be legal to sell.
I think the 'Maximum Continuous Power' was used by manufacturers to pull the wool over the eyes of the regulators when the regulations were first being written. This is why the manufacturers were shuffling their feet awkwardly and saying, 'Actually, we're fine, thanks' when that ridiculous 500W consultation was being done for the UK last year. How much money was wasted to see if it was worth changing the stickers manufacturers were required to put on their motors?
Currently there is no limit on any type of power output an ebike can put out, continuous or peak. The only limit is that the motor can't be so small it can't do 250W continuous. That is a minimum limit.
I don’t think power makes too much difference on road for restricted e-bikes. Of course the only way to manage it given how easy it is to have non road-legal versions is licensing with periodic testing and probably government issued identifiers prominently displayed to demonstrate and allow compliance to be readily checked…
To the comments that road bikes can go faster, they can but a road bike at 20 mph generally implies a fairly fit guy on a small lightweight bike. The latter contributes to them feeling vulnerable so being generally somewhat cautious around pedestrians. Compare this with a fat man on a big sit up and beg e-bike loaded with panniers, even if the latter maintains the same margins he is much more intimidating (and hazardous) to pedestrians due to the the greater mass. This is much the same as being overtaken on a bike by a truck being more intimidating than a mini even if they leave the same space.
On road, the idea that e-bikes are in anyway the same game as a push bike is laughable when you see folks ploughing up stuff that Nino couldn’t clean. There a power limit would be more impactful. However, I don’t see that impacting enough of the population to factor in legislation.
I ride a Gen 3 Levo and it has more than enough power to do the job of making riding more fun, I would however like the assistance to carry on up to the 20 mph that Hans mentions in his article for those flatter trails but thats a minor complaint. I've learnt to stay in a lower gear and spin more so notice the limiter less.
Also more power, if used, just means that you are going home early with a flat battery so the fun is over too soon.
The 20mph is a US thing that I hope doesn’t come here. A 20mph e-bike doesn’t, in my opinion, mix well with other bikes on cycle and mixed use paths. I think that it is the use of e-bikes on cycle paths that is the critical point and where regulation should focus because that is where they can do more harm and where most are used. Other contexts; road, trail centres, off road, are secondary.
That's basically it. The vast majority of people i kbow with e bikes are using them as commuter tools on mixed paths. Expensive e- mtbs are an outlier. 30 kmh is too much there
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like...The footprint that you have for most mid drive Ebikes would probably take a 3kW motor without any problems. Hell, the motor in my 8th buggy is nominally 2.8kW and it's the size of one of those airline coke cans. Not to mention, it's 5 years old, current gen motors are *much* more powerful.
before the realisation that it needs to be regulated.The realisation was probably a decade ago. When we first started seeing dodgy homebrew kits coming into shops...
Personally I'd rather see a limit on the power multiplier - how much power the motor puts in being limited to a multiple of what the rider puts in.
Power output as they are currently, that can match what a reasonably fit, big rider can do doesn't seem so different... but they can do it constantly for hours, whereas us meat powered people can do it for seconds at a time.
Would keep ebikes feeling and acting like "bikes, but better"
The real question, that the industry is shy of for obvious commercial reasons, is whether riding an e-mtb is mountain biking at all. In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking and becomes something else, a sort halfway house between riding a bicycle and riding an electric motorbike.
You can do all the delusional, self-deceiving rationalisation you like, but as soon as you're no longer 100% pedalling the bike yourself, it's a different thing. I also hate the noise they make for the same reason I have motorcycles and hair-driers being used in quiet, outdoor places. The whole e-mtb thing is just another symptom of our species' obsession with complicating and automating everything to the point where eventually we'll be incapable of getting out of an armchair unassisted.
I don't have a problem with people riding e-mtbs and I don't honestly care about power levels, that bird took off pretty much as soon as the things appeared, but I dislike the pretence that they are 'mountain biking'. The industry and the bike media want them to be mountain biking, people who ride them want them to be mountain biking, but really they're just low-powered e-motorbikes with pedals.
“In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking”
The thing about mountain biking is that for many riders most of the immediate fun (if not the more complex rewards) comes from going downhill. A descending bike is not powered by a human, it is predominantly powered by gravity. Yea you have to charge the potential energy store but your method for that doesn’t change how that energy is released. Pedal up, push up, uplift, electric assist, it doesn’t matter. As soon as you’re going downhill enough then the electric power makes no difference anyway, it’s just a heavier bike.
I mostly commute (off-road) on my ebike. Yesterday (as often) I was running late getting back for the kids. I killed myself pedalling back up that steep greasy rooty hill - it hurt. (In fact it was more intense than when I went out on Sunday on my singlespeed). It was on turbo so I got up that hill twice as fast as I do on the solely human-powered gearless bike.
I would argue that if you feel that riding an ebike isn’t mountain biking then the problem isn’t the ebike, it’s what you choose to do when you have a motor to help. Put some effort in! 😉
Suspect this has been done to death but I don't pay a huge amount to ebike chat but...
These are restricted to keep.working up until a set speed - 15.5mph I think. Aware the motor makes it easier to get to that speed (although it isn't effortless), so for those wanting to go to 20mph, does it not mean you just put more effort in that you haven't needed to do to get to 15.5mph?
Very aware 20mph is harder to get to and maintain on a MTB than 15.5mph, but if you have the assist to get to the lower speed, is it the same effort then to get to the higher speed as it is on a non-emtb?
Genuine answer and not a wind up, I've only ridden an ebike twice - great fun but not for me (expensive, heavier and not as reliable) and as I don't tend to pay attention to ebikes, I don't really know how they work.
Depends on the bike. On a 'full fat' Emtb, 800wh battery, big motor, massive 2.6 downhill casing tyres, and with particular motors (many of the older motor designs too) trying to 'break through' the motor assist feels like a hitting a brick wall.
These are usually the people who complain about the limit being too low. These are also the people who tend to illegally chip their ebikes.*
On later motor designs, and the lighter 'SL' type ebikes, and certainly some of the better motor designs (TQ, speicalized SL etc) then you just pedal more and go faster with minimal drag etc, no different to any other bicycle.
I regularly ride my Levo SL in 'off' mode when with the family.
* Controversial - these are also the 'larger' people soft pedalling everywhere sat down and increasingly less physically capable of pedalling themselves at all...
“Very aware 20mph is harder to get to and maintain on a MTB than 15.5mph, but if you have the assist to get to the lower speed, is it the same effort then to get to the higher speed as it is on a non-emtb?”
Basically yes. There’s a bit of motor drag (not much on my old Levo) and you’re accelerating something heavier but if you’re going downhill the weight helps. A lot of ebikers run heavier and stickier tyres on the grounds that they’ve got a motor to help - and then complain that you can’t pedal it past the cut-off but it’s mostly just the tyre choice making it harder.
On tarmac I’ll often pedal it past the cut-out. Downhill I usually turn the power off because I feel I ride better without a motor to help when I’ve messed up a corner!
The real question, that the industry is shy of for obvious commercial reasons, is whether riding an e-mtb is mountain biking at all. In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking and becomes something else, a sort halfway house between riding a bicycle and riding an electric motorbike.
You can do all the delusional, self-deceiving rationalisation you like, but as soon as you're no longer 100% pedalling the bike yourself, it's a different thing. I also hate the noise they make for the same reason I have motorcycles and hair-driers being used in quiet, outdoor places. The whole e-mtb thing is just another symptom of our species' obsession with complicating and automating everything to the point where eventually we'll be incapable of getting out of an armchair unassisted.
I don't have a problem with people riding e-mtbs and I don't honestly care about power levels, that bird took off pretty much as soon as the things appeared, but I dislike the pretence that they are 'mountain biking'. The industry and the bike media want them to be mountain biking, people who ride them want them to be mountain biking, but really they're just low-powered e-motorbikes with pedals.
Is it any less mountain biking than people who get a shuttle/chairlift to the top and then ride back down?
Also, for EPACs (aka normal eMTBs) you're not taking humans out of the equation as the motor only offers assistance to the human input, it doesn't replace it, as then it wouldn't be an EPAC.
EDIT: Just realised other's have covered this as I half typed a reply then went to make a cup of tea 😀
Congrats on defining your own version of mountain biking.
TBF this was Sheldon Brown's view 20 years ago.
WRT eMTBs there is clearly a balance to be struck, and people riding around on what are legally electric motorbikes is doing nothing for the good EPACs can do, or for land access.
