MTB legend asks if it is time to draw a line in the sand of when e-bikes become "too powerful"
Agree with him, but it's all pie in the sky. It's just too late now. Bit like social media, it developed into the shitheap it is now before the realisation that it needs to be regulated. Some people make a living out of illegally chipping, what Hans terms as "E-bicycle (EMTB)". Marking the bikes with their category would be a waste of time.
I'm with him too. It's bad enough where I live as it is. Basically our corner of Germany rules it's illegal biking on anything in the forests narrower than 2 metres so we depend on goodwill and being nice, to be tolerated on singletracks. Ripping around on electric motorbikes will just piss everyone off further and create heavy enforcement and / or bans....
Bike parks: go for it. Street riding: enforcement of current regs and German police have mini-dynos to check bikes. Natural trails: e-pedelecs meeting current regs.
Natural singletrack... I can see it becoming a bigger issue. Bikes wizzing past walkers is enough of a problem as it is without extra e-powered speed. No-one wants to be the 2wheeled equivalent of a jetski.
He's right about getting the language sorted too. It's been mentioned that the BBC refer to chipped and overpowered Surrons as E-bikes when they are clearly not as we know but to the uninformed they are all the same.
I'm with him as well, and not just for MTBs - the lack of regulation (or at least enforcement of regulation) on ebikes in general massively undermines their potential for decarbonising transport.
This is being discussed on EMTB forum at the moment and two interesting things have been mentioned...
Hans Rey is now a Bosch ambassador, and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor:
Avinox: 1000w
Specialized: 850w
Mahle: 850w
Yamaha: 800w
Bosch: 750w
Shimano: 600w
100% agree. When you limit ebikes to 15mph-ish and 600W-ish, they're far less likely to take pedestrians and other vehicles by surprise. We're all used to bikes going fast downhill. No-one is used to tiny silent vehicles on bike lanes or in the countryside doing 20mph+ on the flat or uphill.
I still have to slow down on my ebike for dog walkers etc, especially with younger people often wearing headphones (is no-one else paranoid about not hearing things?!) or older people being deaf, but at least even at full tilt it's doing 15 not 30!
and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like... and to stay "competitive" might well have to... that they haven't yet built an ebike motor that can deliver peak 2000w for 20mins, stretching the intent of current regulation to breaking point, is because they have so far chosen not to. They are not using an ambassador to cover up limitations they have in delivering motor technology... their current offerings don't even touch on what they could do if they didn't care about the consequences for the European market and users.
Rather than the apparent focus on creating forever increasing power outputs, I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Too powerful is too far from what an e-bike is. IMO obviously. I'd rather have better reliability, greater range and less weight than more power.
and Bosch also currently have the 2nd least powerful motor
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like... and to stay "competitive" might well have to... that they haven't yet built an ebike motor that can deliver peak 2000w for 20mins, stretching the intent of current regulation to breaking point, is because they have so far chosen not to. They are not using an ambassador to cover up limitations they have in delivering motor technology... their current offerings don't even touch on what they could do if they didn't care about the consequences for the European market and users.
I have a bike with the lowest powered/oldest of the current motors (EP801-RS), which I'm more than happy with... so I don't really have a horse in the race. I just through it was an interesting observation.
No-one is used to tiny silent vehicles on bike lanes or in the countryside doing 20mph+ on the flat or uphill.Umm - road bikes? Sure they'll slow down climbing but 20+ on the flat isnt unusual.
The 15.5mph limit is annoying on the flat on eMTBs too, and almost feels dangerous when cycling on the roads with cars to and from the trails. I could certainly pedal my non-eMTBs faster than that. I just turn the assist off, but then motor drag is annoying. Still, it's a means to an end to get to the trails.
FFIW I don't think I'm much faster on my eMTB, the climbs are just a bit easier. I'm definitely not doing 15.5mph up climbing trails.
All excellent points from Hans, just half a decade late, those of us who've said similar in the past have been shouted down and accused of being the fun police...
So I'm inclined to shrug and give it a big old "meh" the horse has bolted at this point. The available products have outstripped the rules and Reg's (globally) there are customers who already in the "Biggest number mean betterer, me go fasterist!" mindset and enforcement (again globally) is miles behind it all...
The dire prognostications will now come to pass and the Ban hammer shall start to fall randomly in various jurisdictions as edge lords with chipped E-bikes merrily kick grannies to the floor and fling roost about acting like tossers in everyone's local woods...
My advice if you want to avoid it all, just don't buy an E-bike, get the skinniest tubed, impossible to mistake for an eeeeb, unassisted MTB and enjoy the lack of molestation by authorities and busybodies (for now at least).
With attitudes like this from a British manufacturer -
I don’t think the future of electrically assisted bicycles is in good hands.
I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Yep. It's good that Bosch aren't getting involved in the higher wattage arms race. Hopefully they are more into the reliability - they've already made them quieter (according to the website), which sways me in their direction for my eventual next emtb.
Was the point I was making in the Fresh Goods Friday chat about the Megamo bike that promoted the 1000w output over the fact it was 250w compliant e-bike, so STW culpable here too.
They should have called it 1kW, sound even more gnar. 😒
Berm Peak did a good YouTube video about the potential, (as I believe it's not been 100% rubber stamped yet) massive restrictions on e-bikes of all types a few weeks ago.
Rather than the apparent focus on creating forever increasing power outputs, I wish manufacturers would invest the same time and money in reliability and battery development.
Too powerful is too far from what an e-bike is. IMO obviously. I'd rather have better reliability, greater range and less weight than more power.
This. Motor reliability and efficiency is more important than max power. If motors were more efficient at the same power then batteries and the overall weight could come down or range be extended. Far more useful than hitting the speed limiter a little bit quicker
The legal limit is 250w continuous power, there's no limit on peak or maximum power.
The 250w peak limit is not there to limit your speed, it's for motor safety. Although it could be much higher and still be safe with modern motors.
Since you mention Megamo, which has the same motor as the Amflow, here's Amflow's own explanation on the difference:
What is an e-bike’s peak power?
Peak power represents the maximum output the motor can achieve for short bursts, usually during acceleration or climbing steep hills. The higher an e-bike motor’s peak power, the better it is going to be able to assist you when you’re blasting up steep inclines, between those beautiful flowy downhill sections. If you’re already an e-MTBer, this ability to get quickly and more easily back to the trailhead is probably one of the things that most attracted you to the discipline in the first place.
What is an e-bike’s continuous power?
Continuous power refers to the motor's sustained output over an extended period, typically measured in watts. This rating indicates how much power the motor can deliver consistently without overheating, ensuring reliable performance during long rides.
Continuous power is a regulated feature of electric bikes. In the United Kingdom, e-bikes may only have a maximum of 250 watts of continuous power output. In Germany, and other EU countries, the upper limit is set also at 250 watts. In the United States of America, the upper limit for continuous power is a huge 750 watts, although the laws also vary from state to state, and there are further restrictions and classifications of e-bikes related to maximum speed.
People in the UK might think the 25km/h limit is a pain on the road, but here in Europe I have to share a mixed use bike lane with these, people running, e-scooters and people with prams as riding on the road isnt the thing. So i think the speed linit is fine, but Id like more enforcement.
The difference between e bikes, e mopeds and Surrons is very small. The big difference is where you took a pedal bike, and added a motor
I agree with Hans. Keep regs and limits as they are. More enforcement and education needed both on the streets and in off road. Harsh opinion maybe but if you can pedal your non e-bike full suss faster than 16mph on the flat over a sustained distance long enough that makes a meaningful difference to your journey time then maybe you should ride that non e-bike instead 😉
I don’t have an eMTB but I can push my Tern GSD over the assist level on nice flat sections and gentle downhills… but on my 20 mile each way commute I am happy with my 16mphish cutout. If it cut out at 20 then I’d be riding in assist all the time.
It could be 1MW max and we'd still be stuck with 15.5mph
I think you need to have another look. Llandegla most of the KOMs are taken by bikes going uphill with avg speeds above 20mph. I was surprised just how many bikes have been de restricted
To me it’s then about safety and trail damage.
Speaking to the trail staff at Llandegla they said e-bikes are massively effecting the ware on their trails
So Amflow think an ebike and riding one is a discipline? Interesting...
I'm not sure it is as it allows the rider to ride whatever discipline they want, just on a motor-assisted pedal bike.
I've no skin in the game as I've no ebike, but it is interesting hearing how companies frame all this kind of stuff.
I think he’s completely correct. I think it will cause huge damage to the future of e-bikes if they are lumped together with e-mopeds or e-motorbikes. I can see why places in the USA ban them.
I’ve agreed with the maximum power restriction, but like the assist speed restriction it is utterly pointless if motor/bike brands allow the restrictions to be removed. I’d go as far as to say the only way out of the hole being dug is for the law to be changed to remove the “for use on private land” get out clause, and for sales to be limited to bikes that can not be easily adapted to exceed the limits set out for path, road and public land use in the country of use. If it’s left to manufacturers, there will always be some other brand taking your sales by allowing derestrictions, or a retailer importing bikes from another market with different rules. Without national rules on sales and importing (rather than just on use) setting out any rules on power, speed or % of assist is pretty much useless… while removing/changing restrictions is made trivial, enough riders will adapt their bikes and ignore the rules to blur the lines and endanger ebike access for all.
The legal limit is 250w continuous power, there's no limit on peak or maximum power.
The 250w peak limit is not there to limit your speed, it's for motor safety. Although it could be much higher and still be safe with modern motors.
I say it on all the time and I get shouted down all the time, but continuous power is a minimum power test, not a maximum power test.
Maximum continuous power suggests you should be fine with a smaller less powerful motor. That is not the case. If you had a motor that could only deliver 200W Continuous power (ie, in the lab conditions specified the temperature would not have stabilised after 30 minutes) then that ebike would be illegal to sell. If you had a motor that was capable of delivering 5000W continuous power but you slapped a '250W continuous power' sticker on it would be legal to sell.
I think the 'Maximum Continuous Power' was used by manufacturers to pull the wool over the eyes of the regulators when the regulations were first being written. This is why the manufacturers were shuffling their feet awkwardly and saying, 'Actually, we're fine, thanks' when that ridiculous 500W consultation was being done for the UK last year. How much money was wasted to see if it was worth changing the stickers manufacturers were required to put on their motors?
Currently there is no limit on any type of power output an ebike can put out, continuous or peak. The only limit is that the motor can't be so small it can't do 250W continuous. That is a minimum limit.
I don’t think power makes too much difference on road for restricted e-bikes. Of course the only way to manage it given how easy it is to have non road-legal versions is licensing with periodic testing and probably government issued identifiers prominently displayed to demonstrate and allow compliance to be readily checked…
To the comments that road bikes can go faster, they can but a road bike at 20 mph generally implies a fairly fit guy on a small lightweight bike. The latter contributes to them feeling vulnerable so being generally somewhat cautious around pedestrians. Compare this with a fat man on a big sit up and beg e-bike loaded with panniers, even if the latter maintains the same margins he is much more intimidating (and hazardous) to pedestrians due to the the greater mass. This is much the same as being overtaken on a bike by a truck being more intimidating than a mini even if they leave the same space.
On road, the idea that e-bikes are in anyway the same game as a push bike is laughable when you see folks ploughing up stuff that Nino couldn’t clean. There a power limit would be more impactful. However, I don’t see that impacting enough of the population to factor in legislation.
I ride a Gen 3 Levo and it has more than enough power to do the job of making riding more fun, I would however like the assistance to carry on up to the 20 mph that Hans mentions in his article for those flatter trails but thats a minor complaint. I've learnt to stay in a lower gear and spin more so notice the limiter less.
Also more power, if used, just means that you are going home early with a flat battery so the fun is over too soon.
The 20mph is a US thing that I hope doesn’t come here. A 20mph e-bike doesn’t, in my opinion, mix well with other bikes on cycle and mixed use paths. I think that it is the use of e-bikes on cycle paths that is the critical point and where regulation should focus because that is where they can do more harm and where most are used. Other contexts; road, trail centres, off road, are secondary.
That's basically it. The vast majority of people i kbow with e bikes are using them as commuter tools on mixed paths. Expensive e- mtbs are an outlier. 30 kmh is too much there
Bosch could build a motor of any power you like...The footprint that you have for most mid drive Ebikes would probably take a 3kW motor without any problems. Hell, the motor in my 8th buggy is nominally 2.8kW and it's the size of one of those airline coke cans. Not to mention, it's 5 years old, current gen motors are *much* more powerful.
before the realisation that it needs to be regulated.The realisation was probably a decade ago. When we first started seeing dodgy homebrew kits coming into shops...
Personally I'd rather see a limit on the power multiplier - how much power the motor puts in being limited to a multiple of what the rider puts in.
Power output as they are currently, that can match what a reasonably fit, big rider can do doesn't seem so different... but they can do it constantly for hours, whereas us meat powered people can do it for seconds at a time.
Would keep ebikes feeling and acting like "bikes, but better"
The real question, that the industry is shy of for obvious commercial reasons, is whether riding an e-mtb is mountain biking at all. In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking and becomes something else, a sort halfway house between riding a bicycle and riding an electric motorbike.
You can do all the delusional, self-deceiving rationalisation you like, but as soon as you're no longer 100% pedalling the bike yourself, it's a different thing. I also hate the noise they make for the same reason I have motorcycles and hair-driers being used in quiet, outdoor places. The whole e-mtb thing is just another symptom of our species' obsession with complicating and automating everything to the point where eventually we'll be incapable of getting out of an armchair unassisted.
I don't have a problem with people riding e-mtbs and I don't honestly care about power levels, that bird took off pretty much as soon as the things appeared, but I dislike the pretence that they are 'mountain biking'. The industry and the bike media want them to be mountain biking, people who ride them want them to be mountain biking, but really they're just low-powered e-motorbikes with pedals.
“In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking”
The thing about mountain biking is that for many riders most of the immediate fun (if not the more complex rewards) comes from going downhill. A descending bike is not powered by a human, it is predominantly powered by gravity. Yea you have to charge the potential energy store but your method for that doesn’t change how that energy is released. Pedal up, push up, uplift, electric assist, it doesn’t matter. As soon as you’re going downhill enough then the electric power makes no difference anyway, it’s just a heavier bike.
I mostly commute (off-road) on my ebike. Yesterday (as often) I was running late getting back for the kids. I killed myself pedalling back up that steep greasy rooty hill - it hurt. (In fact it was more intense than when I went out on Sunday on my singlespeed). It was on turbo so I got up that hill twice as fast as I do on the solely human-powered gearless bike.
I would argue that if you feel that riding an ebike isn’t mountain biking then the problem isn’t the ebike, it’s what you choose to do when you have a motor to help. Put some effort in! 😉
Suspect this has been done to death but I don't pay a huge amount to ebike chat but...
These are restricted to keep.working up until a set speed - 15.5mph I think. Aware the motor makes it easier to get to that speed (although it isn't effortless), so for those wanting to go to 20mph, does it not mean you just put more effort in that you haven't needed to do to get to 15.5mph?
Very aware 20mph is harder to get to and maintain on a MTB than 15.5mph, but if you have the assist to get to the lower speed, is it the same effort then to get to the higher speed as it is on a non-emtb?
Genuine answer and not a wind up, I've only ridden an ebike twice - great fun but not for me (expensive, heavier and not as reliable) and as I don't tend to pay attention to ebikes, I don't really know how they work.
Depends on the bike. On a 'full fat' Emtb, 800wh battery, big motor, massive 2.6 downhill casing tyres, and with particular motors (many of the older motor designs too) trying to 'break through' the motor assist feels like a hitting a brick wall.
These are usually the people who complain about the limit being too low. These are also the people who tend to illegally chip their ebikes.*
On later motor designs, and the lighter 'SL' type ebikes, and certainly some of the better motor designs (TQ, speicalized SL etc) then you just pedal more and go faster with minimal drag etc, no different to any other bicycle.
I regularly ride my Levo SL in 'off' mode when with the family.
* Controversial - these are also the 'larger' people soft pedalling everywhere sat down and increasingly less physically capable of pedalling themselves at all...
“Very aware 20mph is harder to get to and maintain on a MTB than 15.5mph, but if you have the assist to get to the lower speed, is it the same effort then to get to the higher speed as it is on a non-emtb?”
Basically yes. There’s a bit of motor drag (not much on my old Levo) and you’re accelerating something heavier but if you’re going downhill the weight helps. A lot of ebikers run heavier and stickier tyres on the grounds that they’ve got a motor to help - and then complain that you can’t pedal it past the cut-off but it’s mostly just the tyre choice making it harder.
On tarmac I’ll often pedal it past the cut-out. Downhill I usually turn the power off because I feel I ride better without a motor to help when I’ve messed up a corner!
The real question, that the industry is shy of for obvious commercial reasons, is whether riding an e-mtb is mountain biking at all. In my hard-headed, biased, old skool opinion, as soon as you take 'human powered' out of the equation, it stops being mountain biking and becomes something else, a sort halfway house between riding a bicycle and riding an electric motorbike.
You can do all the delusional, self-deceiving rationalisation you like, but as soon as you're no longer 100% pedalling the bike yourself, it's a different thing. I also hate the noise they make for the same reason I have motorcycles and hair-driers being used in quiet, outdoor places. The whole e-mtb thing is just another symptom of our species' obsession with complicating and automating everything to the point where eventually we'll be incapable of getting out of an armchair unassisted.
I don't have a problem with people riding e-mtbs and I don't honestly care about power levels, that bird took off pretty much as soon as the things appeared, but I dislike the pretence that they are 'mountain biking'. The industry and the bike media want them to be mountain biking, people who ride them want them to be mountain biking, but really they're just low-powered e-motorbikes with pedals.
Is it any less mountain biking than people who get a shuttle/chairlift to the top and then ride back down?
Also, for EPACs (aka normal eMTBs) you're not taking humans out of the equation as the motor only offers assistance to the human input, it doesn't replace it, as then it wouldn't be an EPAC.
EDIT: Just realised other's have covered this as I half typed a reply then went to make a cup of tea 😀
Congrats on defining your own version of mountain biking.
TBF this was Sheldon Brown's view 20 years ago.
WRT eMTBs there is clearly a balance to be struck, and people riding around on what are legally electric motorbikes is doing nothing for the good EPACs can do, or for land access.
The limiter is a pain, always kick in at the most inopportune moment.
20mph would great, the gears on my Levo would spin out about there anyway.
15 sucks, when some scooter, car or motorbike whatever flies on by.
I dont know why the manufacturers got to be of cops of speed restricting.
I wouldn't buy a gun with a bent barrel or the muzzle welded up !
And they wonder people hack them.
Edit: my first ever double post. Twins! So proud!!
I would argue that if you feel that riding an ebike isn’t mountain biking then the problem isn’t the ebike, it’s what you choose to do when you have a motor to help. Put some effort in!
The 'problem' is that the bike has a motor in the first place.
As per my post, I have no issues with the existence of e-mtbs or with people riding them or even if the manufacturers choose to make them stupidly powerful, I just don't think they're mountain biking, just the bastard offspring of an unholy mating between a mountain bike and an e-motorcycle.
So I suppose DH isn't mountain biking because gravity does the descending and riders use an uplift. Congrats on defining your own version of mountain biking
No, DH is mountain biking because the bikes don't have motors. It's not about whether you go up or down or along or levitate thanks to your divine status, it's a simply, binary 'does the bike have a motor yes or no?'
Like I said, I'm not anti the things, I just don't think they're genuinely mountain bikes ymmv and it makes no difference to anything at all.
I would argue that if you feel that riding an ebike isn’t mountain biking then the problem isn’t the ebike, it’s what you choose to do when you have a motor to help. Put some effort in!
The 'problem' is that the bike has a motor in the first place.
As per my post, I have no issues with the existence of e-mtbs or with people riding them or even if the manufacturers choose to make them stupidly powerful, I just don't think they're mountain biking, just the bastard offspring of an unholy mating between a mountain bike and an e-motorcycle.
So I suppose DH isn't mountain biking because gravity does the descending and riders use an uplift. Congrats on defining your own version of mountain biking
No, DH is mountain biking because the bikes don't have motors. It's not about whether you go up or down or along or levitate thanks to your divine status, it's a simply, binary 'does the bike have a motor yes or no?'
Like I said, I'm not anti the things, I just don't think they're genuinely mountain bikes ymmv and it makes no difference to anything at all.
"The 'problem' is that the bike has a motor in the first place."
A motorbike isn't rideable without the motor running. An eMTB is. There is no binary divide because a legal eMTB can be both a predominantly motor-powered device (although not wholly) and a solely human-powered device and anywhere in between.
In fact, when the building I used to work in banned ebikes due to the alleged risks of battery fires, I removed the battery from mine, bought a 3D printed blanking plate, and cycled to work on my ebike whose motor could then be nothing more than decorative.
If I cable tie a motor to your mountain bike is it no longer a mountain bike?
I would argue that if you feel that riding an ebike isn’t mountain biking then the problem isn’t the ebike, it’s what you choose to do when you have a motor to help. Put some effort in!
The 'problem' is that the bike has a motor in the first place.
As per my post, I have no issues with the existence of e-mtbs or with people riding them or even if the manufacturers choose to make them stupidly powerful, I just don't think they're mountain biking, just the bastard offspring of an unholy mating between a mountain bike and an e-motorcycle.
So I suppose DH isn't mountain biking because gravity does the descending and riders use an uplift. Congrats on defining your own version of mountain biking
No, DH is mountain biking because the bikes don't have motors. It's not about whether you go up or down or along or levitate thanks to your divine status, it's a simply, binary 'does the bike have a motor yes or no?'
Like I said, I'm not anti the things, I just don't think they're genuinely mountain bikes ymmv and it makes no difference to anything at all.
As you say, it makes no difference at all, but since this is discussion forum let's discuss...
I really don't get the purist angle. Putting a small electric motor on a mountain bike that only provides assistance to the user's own input doesn't make it any less of a mountain bike, the rider any less of a mountain biker, or indeed the activity itself any less mountain biking.
Poor comparisons perhaps, but would you say a Flymo isn't a real lawnmower, or an electric wheelchair isn't a real wheelchair?
The limiter is a pain, always kick in at the most inopportune moment.
20mph would great, the gears on my Levo would spin out about there anyway.
15 sucks, when some scooter, car or motorbike whatever flies on by.
I dont know why the manufacturers got to be of cops of speed restricting.
I wouldn't buy a gun with a bent barrel or the muzzle welded up !
And they wonder people hack them.
I recon that the gun analogy is a bit of a Freudian slip… guns are generally illegal and if you want to own one without a licence or even at all, then I guess you have to get it deactivated some how?
The built in cut off is the thing that allows you to ride the ebike. It is the concession to you that allows you to use a powered vehicle as if it is just a bike.
A lot of ebikers run heavier and stickier tyres on the grounds that they’ve got a motor to help - and then complain that you can’t pedal it past the cut-off but it’s mostly just the tyre choice making it harder.
I really notice this on my emtb to the point I’ve wondered about getting a 2nd set f wheels for XC type rides
There are definitely some sections of trail where an emtb is slower than an analogue mtb . However I am sure if I put the tyres from my emtb onto an mtb I wouldn’t be able to do 35 miles and 5,000ft of climbing
Where did the 15.5mph come from, Whats the logic behind it?
IMO you could even argue that’s too fast compared to other users of bridleways. Yes a fast horse can do 25/30mph but I’ve not ever seen a horse doing more than a canter on a BW. Good runners might do 12mph? So actually 15.5mph is quite high compared to other users.
There's more to this one. While this makes sense within e-MTB it's got wider implications. What does need addressing is how the EPAC class applies to all e-bikes and the proposed limits here affect e-MTB and cargo bikes differently.
Hans/Bosch/ZIV may be in danger of damaging the e-bike and e-cargo market scope by trying to protect the e-MTB market / trail access. Load-carrying e-bikes (Tern GSD etc) may need 800W+ peak power to get up a hill at 10mph. Why limit that possibility? Limit a bike with firmware suited to it's design and use, don't limit the peak output of all EPACs that may make a great LEV viable.
IMHO - put e-bikes (city/transport type) and e-cargo development scope ahead of e-MTB needs, or make both equal. That puts me with LEVA's position on EPACs more than Bosch/ZIV, but I also agree that e-MTB outputs need some control. Thing is, you can't limit e-MTBs w/o limiting all e-bikes and cargo bikes bc of the regulations framework and that's important.
This is essential reading because it rarely surfaces, LEVA don't have Hans Rey and other influencers talking for them:
https://leva-eu.com/leva-eu-statement-on-ziv-position-on-e-bikes/
LEVA-EU firmly states that EPACs are Light Electric Vehicles, not bicycles, as defined by the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic. Bicycles are vehicles with at least two wheels, propelled solely by muscular energy, typically via pedals or hand-cranks. EPACs, by contrast, are electrically assisted and fall outside this definition. Their development and legal status should not be dictated by the bicycle industry.
Technical legislation such as Regulation 168/2013 and the Machinery Directive is intended to ensure that vehicles placed on the market are technically safe. These frameworks are not meant to prescribe vehicle characteristics, regulate user effort, or define mobility behaviour. The suggestion that EPACs risk being classified as motor vehicles unless assistance ratios and weight limits are imposed is legally baseless.
The ZIV proposal would:
– Severely hinder the development of EPACs for logistics, accessibility, and sport
– Discriminate against elderly, disabled, and physically weaker users
– Undermine the EU’s climate and mobility goals by reducing modal shift potential and innovation
– Misrepresent the purpose of technical legislation, which is not to define active mobility or enforce physical effort
^ for anyone who sees e-bikes as not real bikes .. LEVA are kinda with you, just not for the same reasons.
RE Hans being a Bosch ambassador and Bosch's current motor power - that puts him in an influential position with Bosch and he's only really saying what Bosch have been for a while, that there needs to be a cap and 750W seems sensibly powerful but not daft (potential issues with the implications of their direction aside). Some say it's protectionism in the face of DJI's motor. I'd say DJI just played the marketing by numbers game and will continue to do so because DJI have a no effs given, dry your eyes approach to our trails and any MTB culture we have / had. They're a drone maker in China, they don't care what happens to our trails (I'm not convinced they care how their drones get used either). So I get the sentiment behind the article but there's more to all this than only e-MTBs.
To manufacturers:
Resist the temptation to chase bigger numbers at the expense of long-term access. Short-term sales gains could lead to long-term collapse.To media and marketers:
Use precise language—even when it’s less convenient. Help draw and defend the line that protects this category.To riders:
Ride responsibly. Understand what’s at stake. Don’t take trail access for granted.
Good luck with that. What have many been saying recently about MTB marketing? Has he seen youtube recently?
Siding with LEVA on all this means I may end up seeing e-MTBs with 1250W and a trail access ban on all e-bikes. I don't want that to happen. My wife has a rigid city e-bike with 2.0" tyres and rode it on easy dry trails at Swinley ages ago, for us to be told e-bikes are banned there. That's the problem.. similar here, or in govt and business, the powerful few fk it up for the rest of us.
Edit to add, I'd like to see the bike industry media discussing LEVA's take on all this more openly, for balance and perspective. E-MTBs and electric transport futures are linked by regulations and type/class approval.
This is a good article on the e-MTB power topic that also misses the point that what we want for e-MTB might not help wider e-bike development that could benefit city transport -
https://ebike-mtb.com/regulierungs-dilemma-der-e-bike-branche/
To manufacturers:
Resist the temptation to chase bigger numbers at the expense of long-term access. Short-term sales gains could lead to long-term collapse.To media and marketers:
Use precise language—even when it’s less convenient. Help draw and defend the line that protects this category.To riders:
Ride responsibly. Understand what’s at stake. Don’t take trail access for granted.
Good luck with that. What have many been saying recently about MTB marketing? Has he seen youtube recently?
Siding with LEVA on all this means I may end up seeing e-MTBs with 1250W and a trail access ban on all e-bikes. I don't want that to happen. My wife has a rigid city e-bike with 2.0" tyres and rode it on easy dry trails at Swinley ages ago, for us to be told e-bikes are banned there. That's the problem.. similar here, or in govt and business, the powerful few fk it up for the rest of us.
Are Ebikes are banned at swinley?
^ No, that was just a belief at the time in one area. IDR the detail now, was ~2018. OT sorry.
Point was that an access ban would restrict what I'd call regular e-bikes (low power leisure use on byways for ex) use because of the image and issues of more powerful e-MTBs.
don't limit the peak output of all EPACs that may make a great LEV viable.
I disagree strongly. We need high powered and often large electric vehicles with pedals to be in a different category and not using bike lanes. Something like the current Shimano and Bosch motors are plenty powerful enough for genuine cargo bikes… they just need big batteries.
Sorry to keep banging on about the continuous power thing, but I really think it damaged the way the emtb market ended up going.
As I said earlier, the 'maximum' continuous power limit didn't put a limit on how large a motor could be but it did limit how small a motor could be.
I was thinking the other day that ebikes should be a leveler. Ideally the way they should be used is so that me and Tom Pidcock can go for a ride together (perhaps not the most realistic scenario as I don't think there is a motor powerful enough to compensate for my Watt peashooters) or my Dad could use an ebike so me and him can go out riding together.
The actual power needed to close the gap between a reasonably fit rider and an unfit rider is pretty small, imo. Even 100W would be enough for most people.
With a very small motor the footprint and torque would mean there is a good chance you package it in such a way that the whole thing could be bolted onto ISCG tabs, and of course the battery could be much smaller.
As it stands, ebike kits have to conform to the regulations and the regulations say that your motor has to be rated to 250W continuous power. A 100W continuous power motor would fail the test and would not be legal to use.
I'd like to see the continuous power requirement removed and then see what we can do with much smaller kits that do what everyone says emtbs are intended to do which is close the gap between riders of different levels of fitness.
Personally I can’t help thinking this is part of a much wider societal problem around behaviour, responsibility and how we interact with the world and each other. This ranges from problems like litter and dog waste to the frankly ridiculous 1700 or so people who die on UK roads each year, the vast majority preventable. The latter destroys a lot more lives than the 1700 too and it’s insane it still happens given the seriousness.
E-bikes fall in there somewhere and are just another part of modern life that are subject to humans, and the whims and selfishness that goes with them. We need to be better humans.
Just my thoughts, the 15 mph limit and the power of Bosch / Shimano motors is more than enough to add a lot of positives to mountain biking. Beyond that and people just can’t appear to be trusted not to affect other people and our environment negatively. Not surprising really, but a bit sad.
IMO you could even argue that’s too fast compared to other users of bridleways. Yes a fast horse can do 25/30mph but I’ve not ever seen a horse doing more than a canter on a BW. Good runners might do 12mph? So actually 15.5mph is quite high compared to other users.
I can happily blat along sections of the HPT or Monsal Trail at close to 20mph on my gravel bike.
Obviously being an adult and not an idiot (although some may challenge that) I slow down for other users.
If the ebike limit were 20mph, I and probably many others would be far less inclined to deristrict them.
On mixed rides, the restricted ebikers are often dropped on fire roads or road sections by the meat powered riders.
@steamtb The EPAC rules would be fine, but the issue is the number of overpowered bikes sold for use ‘on private land’ or which have been modified. I’d be very surprised if the majority of these aren’t ridden at least briefly on the public highway, and as we know from watching Deliveroo bikes whizzing uphill with no pedalling and sometimes no chain, the enforcement of the EPAC rules is non-existent.
I disagree strongly. We need high powered and often large electric vehicles with pedals to be in a different category and not using bike lanes. Something like the current Shimano and Bosch motors are plenty powerful enough for genuine cargo bikes… they just need big batteries.
I agree with you that the current product works for cargo bikes but I don't want to see design or product scope limited in principle by power. Also agree there's a size/weight limit for bike lane use, as part of the same discussion.
Higher-power and size/weight but speed limited EPAC LEVs might be viable on roads and more useable/useful if viable w/o moped/motorbike licensing but that's getting into a future products debate. I just prefer not to take design options off the table when EPACS or LEVS could offer so much. I do think we already have most of what's needed though, it's infrastructure that limits uptake more than current product scope.
I just prefer not to take design options off the table when EPACS or LEVS could offer so much.
They're not the same thing though, and leaving EPAC rules wide open enough to enable LEVS is entirely unnecessary/lazy. We need new regs for LEVS in the UK closer in line with other countries, that enable their use from 14 etc. Trying to sneak LEVS out as if they are pedal bikes results in a mess for the users of both categories (and pedestrians).
Not the same no, though I think cargo/LEV products can benefit from being the under the same frameworks and regs as EPACs (mainly related to licencing and how that relates to use/uptake - and perhaps commercial use or insurance needs are a dividing line rather than it only being about product spec, that's beyond my knowledge of regs). The suggested limitations are not all wrong but some are limiting, mainly the power. The tricky bit is that I agree that e-MTBs could have limited max power and also that a limit that works there may be detrimental to other products.
How many people know/understand the whole 'support ratio' thing? IMO it's the support ratio that feels like it's the key thing to discuss and legislate for.
ie. limit 2-wheel ebikes to only be able to product 4(?) times what the rider is putting in. So if you want 1000w, you need to be putting in 250w yourself. Type of thing.
The 15.5mph limit is annoying on the flat on eMTBs too, and almost feels dangerous when cycling on the roads with cars to and from the trails. I could certainly pedal my non-eMTBs faster than that. I just turn the assist off, but then motor drag is annoying. Still, it's a means to an end to get to the trails.
FFIW I don't think I'm much faster on my eMTB, the climbs are just a bit easier. I'm definitely not doing 15.5mph up climbing trails.
Why? Do you feel in danger riding a normal bike on the road? Unless you're superhuman* a sustained 15.5mph is hard work. It's the top gear (29x2.4, 30/10 gear, 60rpm) on most modern trail/enduro bikes. It's faster than I'd average on the road outside of late summer.
*well, in the top few percent of keen amateur cyclists anyway
I agree with you that the current product works for cargo bikes but I don't want to see design or product scope limited in principle by power. Also agree there's a size/weight limit for bike lane use, as part of the same discussion.
I think that conflates (or even causes) two issues.
1) The motor on Dan Stanton's bike may well be useful on a fully laden cargo bike. But that doesn't mean he's being any less of a dick with it.
2) I don't really want 200-300kg vehicles in the bike lanes or shared paths. Yes they can help solve those last mile logistics problems, but they only exist as a solution because the regulations never anticipated them. A better solution would be to create a new class of four wheel vehicles akin to mopeds (or just call them quad bikes under the existing moped rules). Tax, MOT, (easy) licence, and maybe a 5mph limit in pedestrian areas or cycle lanes.
About the support ratio point, could that would mean that e-MTBs were no longer the ride-leveller that they can be? I'd get less out of my motor than my riding buddy if he's fitter so I'd be dropped again.
The regs would also need to differentiate enthusiast/performance bikes and transport/load carrier products (no problem though they already do for other test areas). The users needing the highest support ratio may also justify the highest peak power - a parent transporting a small, heavy load and 2 kids to school while wearing normal clothes on their way to work. That same support ratio and peak power on an e-MTB might be a problem?
Works in theory but not sure it's an all-good thing unless accepted as a variable or adjustable by the rider like a mode level.
I'd get less out of my motor than my riding buddy if he's fitter so I'd be dropped again.
Some buddy.
The regs would also need to differentiate enthusiast/performance bikes and transport/load carrier products (no problem though they already do for other test areas). The users needing the highest support ratio may also justify the highest peak power - a parent transporting a small, heavy load and 2 kids to school while wearing normal clothes on their way to work. That same support ratio and peak power on an e-MTB might be a problem?
Does it though?
Say it was 1:1. That means an average person could get on a cargo bike capable of moving ~80kg of cargo as if they were riding a normal bike. And they're probably only going to output about 250W peak. Remember we're talking about average people here, having an FTP >2W/kg makes any of us a statistical outlier.
It's a pointless argument though, the can of worms is open and I doubt there's any appetite in the DoT or the EU to change anything. It's now just a nail in the coffin of utility cycling as any attempt to add cycling access to pedestrian areas will just be met with comments about e-bikes.
We gave a 'dragons den' type pitch this week to get some charity funding to upgrade the lights at the Bike Hub to LED's to try and reduce our huge energy bill. And someone in the audience went off on a rant. So it really is a problem that's going to block funding for active travel inititiatives.
About the support ratio point, could that would mean that e-MTBs were no longer the ride-leveller that they can be? I'd get less out of my motor than my riding buddy if he's fitter so I'd be dropped again.
If you both cared about aerobic exercise on your ride, your buddy would have to turn his assist level down a bit until he reached a level that you were both putting in equal effort.
As opposed to the current system where the weaker rider just turns theirs up until everyone goes 15.5mph with varying effort levels.
I'd get less out of my motor than my riding buddy if he's fitter so I'd be dropped again.
Some buddy.
Fair. But - hypothetical example / it's always a race, that's why we have an e-bike arms race / actually one of us always gets dropped by a bit uphill or downhill, we always wait, it's fine (all on regular bikes of varying types so fitness and skills means pace does vary, seems normal)
Does it though?
Say it was 1:1. That means an average person could get on a cargo bike capable of moving ~80kg of cargo as if they were riding a normal bike. And they're probably only going to output about 250W peak. Remember we're talking about average people here, having an FTP >2W/kg makes any of us a statistical outlier.
That may work out, but some who ride cargo bikes don't want to put in much effort like you or I on a regular bike. Or in a similar way the 'active' part of active travel puts off a lot of people imo.
How many people know/understand the whole 'support ratio' thing?
I don't think I do! - so in the last couple of years my riding buddy has been my partner. A 60 year old, 5'2" woman. She bought an eMTB so that we could go on rides out in the country together... so she's suppose to work up to the same level of power as me for us to go on enjoyable rides together? Currently we use the "system" (lol) mentioned above, where by I ride in a lower power and she rides in whatever mode is enjoyable for the ride.
That may work out, but some who ride cargo bikes don't want to put in much effort like you or I on a regular bike. Or in a similar way the 'active' part of active travel puts off a lot of people imo.
But then they're no longer doing bike things at bike speeds, they're doing cargo things at (slow) car speeds.
Bike infrastructure is mostly built around people doing 50-100W and ~12mph. If someone's sweating (even an unfit person) they're probably putting in too much effort for a shared path.
If the pedals are just turned into a throttle by the legal back door then it's something different. If that's the goal we should just change the rules to allow throttle control and vastly simplify the electronics/installation. I don't have any issue with throttled e-bikes or scooters if they sat at the same 15mph speed limits. Same with these cargo / rikshaw delivery vehicles, get rid of the vestigial pedals and just make them part of the same umbrella as mopeds.
I don't have any issue with throttled e-bikes or scooters if they sat at the same 15mph speed limits. Same with these cargo / rikshaw delivery vehicles, get rid of the vestigial pedals and just make them part of the same umbrella as mopeds.
I've said before on the topic of e-scooters,
for urban mobility, and for people with no interest in even light exercise or willingness to get sweaty, or any real desire for the actual action of "riding" a bike
an electric scooter is by far the better solution in cost, weight, ease of storage and ease of use than a commuter ebike.
As you say, it makes no difference at all, but since this is discussion forum let's discuss...
I really don't get the purist angle. Putting a small electric motor on a mountain bike that only provides assistance to the user's own input doesn't make it any less of a mountain bike, the rider any less of a mountain biker, or indeed the activity itself any less mountain biking.
Poor comparisons perhaps, but would you say a Flymo isn't a real lawnmower, or an electric wheelchair isn't a real wheelchair?
I think if you were a 'real lawn mowerist' you might - and I'm sure there are people who do - take that view. In honesty though, some of my take on e-mtbs is that it exempts me from nuanced and largely pointless discussions on 'how much power is enough power' etc as 'any level of assistance' is too much in my boat.
One thing mountain bikes and lawn mowers do have in common though, is the noise thing. Traditional cylinder mowers are just part of a bucolic, British summer soundscape along with the smell of freshly mown grass, a Flymo is aural abuse. Similarly the noise e-mtbs make is annoying, like a sort of mountain biking (sic. because it's not 😉 ) tinnitus. Similarly kites, imo, are fine in the outdoors - gentle flappy noises at worse - drones are not.
People are worryingly eager to invite automated, noise polluting tech into quiet outdoor spaces without considering how they change those spaces for others. And yes, I get that, that particular drone has already flown etc.
some of my take on e-mtbs is that it exempts me from nuanced and largely pointless discussions on 'how much power is enough power' etc as 'any level of assistance' is too much in my boat.
...and yet here you are 😊
I don't care about any of that stuff either. I just like getting out on my mountain bike (which it is 😘)
